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Why was the ME 2 squad screwed over by Bioware in Mass Effect 3?


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#26
Cobwebmaster

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Sure Liara and the Virmire Survivor were barely in ME2 but that was only the second entry you know? ME3 is basically the last we will see of these characters so my favourites being shafted for the previous crew (even though they may have good reasons) and just having a few cameos was definitely annoying and sad



Liara does live for a thousand years give or take a couple, and to be honest the Virmire survivor for me was like a fifth wheel particularly if it was Ashley who's skillset was far inferior to Garrus's. As for Kaidan his sentinel skills had some potential in fire support but the less I heard of his whining the better

If you took the Info broker DLC in ME2 Liara's role was greatly expanded and logically  would be a much better romance option considering her close association with Shepard unless you took her resurrection initiative as a sort of Dr Frankenstein role



#27
Valmar

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I would rather call Liara a Shepardmancer because she is actually the initiator most of the time. Also, she effectively "necroed" Shepard before ME2, so Shepardmancer is a fitting term here. :)

 

Glad to hear Im not the only one who picked up on that. Not that it wasn't obvious, but you know. Lol. This was my point about why Liara is treated "as if she's my LI or something" in the goodbye scene. She has a rather strong connection with Shepard regardless of rather or not you're in a relationship with her.

 

 

1. lakus has a good point. The resources that would have been sunk here are not insignificant.

 

Just to clarify, in case there is some confusion... I totally agree with Iakus here. I never said anything to the contrary and my first post mentioned it though not as specifically. I was bit more general about it, but yeah. I'm not oblivious to the resources that would had to be thrown into this.

 

 

2. I disagree about some squad mates not having a good reason. In fact, I think the only one who has a really dumb reason to decline is Jacob (and one can argue that even that is in character :)). Grunt's unit, even if wiped out is not gone completely and is being rebuilt. Also, in ME2, he finally gets to terms with being a Krogan and an Urdnot. It makes sense that he is no longer isolated from his peers, especially after he apparently impressively managed to get their respect between ME2 and 3.

 

I definitely agree with the sentiment and as I mentioned earlier I like that he's 'grown up'. I'm proud of my favorite tank-bred. I can understand that the company would be rebuilt but the entire squad was essentially killed* if you save the queen. I see that as a good opportunity to have Grunt return to the Normandy Krantt. Similar to how Garrus joins up in ME2 shortly after his entire squad was killed, even though its feasible that he could rebuild it.

 

Though I admit to being emotionally bias on this since, frankly, Grunt was one of my favorites and I always feel jaded that they considered James to be an adequate substitute.

 

*"Wave after wave of rachni overwhelmed the Aralakh Company on Utukku. While fighting an impressive enemy to the death is considered an honorable end for a krogan, Aralakh Company has effectively been wiped out."

 

 

Samara only swore herself to Shep for the ME2 mission. In fact, she explicitly states that after the SM is over, she will no longer be bound to Shep. While she has no particular reason not to join the Normandy crew again, it makes sense for a character, so routed in Asari society to fight with her people. Also, I realize a lot of people wanted to romance her but seriously, it would not have fit her sombre and distantly wise character at all IMO. I already think the Citadel scene is quite a stretch. It's another one of those instances where you have to weigh character development vs. fan service and BW made the right choices here IMO.

 

True, true. I concede that point. Still, it felt a bit lame to me. She is deeply routed in asari society, as you say, but she is a Justicar. They generally stick to asari space but that doesn't mean her code is bias to Asari. Unlike some other characters she is primarily a soldier. It's not like she can do more good as a politician, scientist or thief, fighting reaper troops is essentially what her job is (though not specific to the reaper faction, obviously). Her excuse was basically "my code tells me to fight where I am needed most". IMO, that is best served with Shepard. The battles Shepard fights are integral to the war effort and ultimately the defeat of the reapers.

 

During the goodbye on Earth she even mentions that its "about time I joined your battle". On this sentiment I definitely agree. She is fighting off reaper forces anyway so why not do so with Commander Shepard, the guy leading the charge and who is personally interwoven in every critical moment of the war. That seems like it would do more good, imo. Nearly every other character was doing something a bit more specific to their role in the war effort.

 

Jack was training and leading biotic students on the battlefield. Miranda was sabotaging Cerberus operations all over the place and tracking down her father which turned out to play a really big role for Cerberus. Kasumi is stealing critical key objects for the crucible project. Grunt was leading a company of skilled krogan. Wrex was leading all of Tuchunka. Mordin was curing the genophage. Much like Zaeed, Samara was just killing off reaper troops. This isn't a very specific role and is something that could had been achieved just as well with Shepard.

 

 

Sure Liara and the Virmire Survivor were barely in ME2 but that was only the second entry you know? ME3 is basically the last we will see of these characters so my favourites being shafted for the previous crew (even though they may have good reasons) and just having a few cameos was definitely annoying and sad

 

Sure, it was 'only' the second entry... but that doesn't change the fact that Liara is practically not present through the entire thing. At least you'll concede they had good reasons rather than calling it all illogical, implausible nonsense. That's a start. :)

 

I would had liked more cameos, to be sure, but honestly, for the most part I was a bit surprised at how big SOME of their roles were. I believe Iakus said it best when he said they were doomed to be cameos from the start. So, personally, I was impressed with how much some of them were involved in the main story. Miranda and Thane, specifically.

 

I think everyone expected Mordin, Wrex and Legion to play important roles in the main story but I wasn't expecting Thane to come into the main story and biotically punch Mr. Space Ninja. That was pretty awesome. I also wasn't expecting Miranda to be so involved in the main plotline that leads to you tracking down the Illusive Man. I certainly wasn't expecting her faddah to have any role in it.

 

In short, it could had been much worse. What if all the characters were treated like Zaeed where its just one side mission where they make a very brief appearance, say a few lines then you practically never interact with them again without DLC. At least they wrote Miranda and Thane some part in the main story and gave them some relevance. Not as much as they should, given that they're former LI, but this could be said about practically all the LI going all the way back to the second game even.

 

I think we can also both agree that they should have joined us in the final battle like Jack with her students etc.

 

 

That is just one of the many things that I felt should had been done differently with that final battle. Though, I admit, it isn't high on my priority list of things they should had done. Not because I wouldn't want that but because there are bigger issues I have with the final mission then just that. In comparison, this is trivial. Lol.



#28
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I will say this though some of them did have reasonable excuses to not be there, imo.

 

Wrex is important to the krogan and has responsibilities to Tuchunka.

 

Apparently not that importanat to the Krogan if Bioware was able to make him a squadmate in the Citadel dlc. 

 

What was garbage was that the ME1 squadmates  were called legends by brooks without Shepard acknowledging the ME2 squadmates for helping her stop the collectors. Remember these are the same ME1 characters that turned their backs on the galaxy and Shepard, after the SR1 was destroyed, and not make any effort to find a way to stop the reapers


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#29
Valmar

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Apparently not that importanat to the Krogan if Bioware was able to make him a squadmate in the Citadel dlc. 

 

What was garbage was that the ME1 squadmates  were called legends by brooks without Shepard acknowledging the ME2 squadmates for helping her stop the collectors. Remember these are the same ME1 characters that turned their backs on the galaxy and Shepard, after the SR1 was destroyed, and not make any effort to find a way to stop the reapers

 

First, the Citadel DLC was just fanservice anyway. Its hard for me to take anything that happens in it too seriously. I give it pass on this because of the overall ridiculousness of the entire DLC.

 

Second, agreed. Though, again, the entire thing was ridiculous anyway so. Meh.


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#30
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First, the Citadel DLC was just fanservice anyway. Its hard for me to take anything that happens in it too seriously. I give it pass on this because of the overall ridiculousness of the entire DLC.

 

Second, agreed. Though, again, the entire thing was ridiculous anyway so. Meh.

It may of been fanservive, but for what fans? The ME2 squadmates got left in the cold for the gameplay portion. Why couldn't Miranda and Jack be with Shepard for the casino mission? Is it because they weren't an ME1 character or is it because they're not good at distracting guards? It was crap. You know what was terrible?  Steve is in the apartment when they're planning on going to the casino, but is left in the dark. But yet is capable to go on the mission in the archieves. I would be curious to hear the excuse for that.

 

They singled out the ME2 characters in favor for the ME1 characters. I mean Garrus and Tali can be squadmates even though they can be dead in ME2 just like all the other ME2 squadmates


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#31
Iakus

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It may of been fanservive, but for what fans? The ME2 squadmates got left in the cold for the gameplay portion. Why couldn't Miranda and Jack be with Shepard for the casino mission? Is it because they weren't an ME1 character or is it because they're not good at distracting guards? It was crap. You know what was terrible?  Steve is in the apartment when they're planning on going to the casino, but is left in the dark. But yet is capable to go on the mission in the archieves. I would be curious to hear the excuse for that.

 

They singled out the ME2 characters in favor for the ME1 characters. I mean Garrus and Tali can be squadmates even though they can be dead in ME2 just like all the other ME2 squadmates

 

It was probably budget.

 

How much would it have balooned to add ten more characters to that part of teh DLC?



#32
ImaginaryMatter

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It was probably budget.

 

How much would it have balooned to add ten more characters to that part of teh DLC?

 

No idea. But given that they already implemented dialogue scenes + combat stuff for the arena it doesn't seem like it would be too much more to give at least the love interests a "Having a bad day?" shtick, a reason why they're there, plus some generic stuff about being a love interest. You only have to account for Miranda, Jack, Jacob... hah!, and Samara, maybe?



#33
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It was probably budget.

 

How much would it have balooned to add ten more characters to that part of teh DLC?

I have no idea about the cost of that or any of the other stuff. I doubt it would cost  much to have Miranda, Jack, Steve and Samantha for the casino mission. It doesn't take much skill to distract a guard. If they can add Wrex for that mission, who isn't a love interest, I believe they could add the others I mention for that mission



#34
Iakus

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I have no idea about the cost of that or any of the other stuff. I doubt it would cost  much to have Miranda, Jack, Steve and Samantha for the casino mission. It doesn't take much skill to distract a guard. If they can add Wrex for that mission, who isn't a love interest, I believe they could add the others I mention for that mission

And if you have those four, then you'll have people screaming to include Grunt, Samara, Kasumi, and Jacob.

 

And so on.



#35
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And if you have those four, then you'll have people screaming to include Grunt, Samara, Kasumi, and Jacob.

 

And so on.

They were already screaming about only having ME1 characters for that mission. I don't see why those four, who are love interests, couldn't be made available for that one mission

 

I know when I did the mission I didn't want any ME1 character with me. I chose James.



#36
FaWa

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I think Miranda should have been a squadmate, all things considered. She is very hard to kill in the suicide mission (You have to not have loyalty and then have her with you at the very last part) and she probably had the biggest fan base. Early on in the game, she is captured by alliance operatives or something, and you can intervene and have her join the squad. I think it would've been a nice touch, and she is a very interesting character. 



#37
BioWareM0d13

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Resource limitations.

 

Going into ME3 there were far too many squadmates for the devs to keep track of, particularly when you take into account all the possible romances and that many of those characters could be killed in previous games. It's a lot of characters with a lot of variables. Realistically there was never any possibility of Bioware having all prior squadmates minus the Virmire casualty as potential ME3 squadmates, guaranteeing that some of those characters were not going to be on the Normandy full time. It sucks of course if your particular favorites got the short end of the stick, but those are the breaks.

 

I think the real problem here is not Mass Effect 3 but Mass Effect 2. If there is a lesson to be learned, its that if you're crafting a trilogy you do not introduce a completely new cast of companion characters in the second installment, all of whom can also be potentially killed. If the next Mass Effect game ends up as the first game of a new trilogy, they should keep the same core cast of companion characters throughout with the exception of maybe a casualty or two along the way and an addition or two. And if you do a Suicide Mission, you save it for the finale of the last game of that trilogy.


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#38
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Also we needed to make room for this

tumblr_inline_mq32ggA9CX1qz4rgp.gif


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#39
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Resource limitations.

 

Going into ME3 there were far too many squadmates for the devs to keep track of, particularly when you take into account all the possible romances and that many of those characters could be killed in previous games. It's a lot of characters with a lot of variables. Realistically there was never any possibility of Bioware having all prior squadmates minus the Virmire casualty as potential ME3 squadmates, guaranteeing that some of those characters were not going to be on the Normandy full time. It sucks of course if your particular favorites got the short end of the stick, but those are the breaks.

 

I think the real problem here is not Mass Effect 3 but Mass Effect 2. If there is a lesson to be learned, its that if you're crafting a trilogy you do not introduce a completely new cast of companion characters in the second installment, all of whom can also be potentially killed. If the next Mass Effect game ends up as the first game of a new trilogy, they should keep the same core cast of companion characters throughout with the exception of maybe a casualty or two along the way and an addition or two. And if you do a Suicide Mission, you save it for the finale of the last game of that trilogy.

agreed no idea who made the decision at Bioware to put a Suicide Mission where everyone can die in ME2 instead of ME 3 (where we got a boring ass final mission instead) damm they really didn't plan ahead with this trilogy its a real shame 

 

also this doesn't excuse why they weren't temporary squadmates in their missions (like Miranda on Horizon and Cerberu HQ) or joined the battle with Shepard in the final mission (so Shepard is with the full squad and pick anyone who survived as a result the ME2 LI's also get EC goodbyes) 



#40
BioWareM0d13

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I think what ME3 should have done regarding the ME2 squadmates, is have those still alive by the end of ME3 join for the final mission. And have that mission be designed similarly to ME2's Suicide Mission.

 

People would have still griped about not having some of those companions around full time, but I think that would be preferable to the cameos many of them got. And I think that was doable.


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#41
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What made it bad is you get the what-the-crap evac scene saying goodbye to characters you just said goodbye  to a short time ago while the ME2 squadmates, particularly Miranda and Jack, got the short end of the stick. Those two also get shafted when someone else holds the nameplate instead of Jack or Miranda because they're not on the Normandy. I know my Shepard wouldn't like that if I romanced Jack or Miranda and the nameplate was being held by a character he doesn't like.


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#42
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At least ME2 romances should've got more screen time. Except Jacob :D



#43
Linkenski

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They dumped most ME2 squadmates because they were too hard to make as permanent companions when all of them could potentially be dead. I think Bioware realized as soon as they started developing 3 how much they'd shot themselves in the foot by making the suicide mission. But I'm sure they'll eventually do something like it again because it is a really satisfying way to make a final mission and I wouldn't have had it any other way.

 

But to quote one of the writers with a little paraphrasing:

 

"Yeah, it was tough to write! You'd have scenes with potentially dead people talking to other potentially dead people." - Patrick Weekes. It was just too risky to assign anyone from ME2 as a central character needed by the plot, but they still did a good job of including Mordin and Miranda I think. Legion too if it wasn't for the fact that Chris Hepler largely screwed over the geth identity by making them and EDI too seek to become "real" as if they were pinnocchio. Their old writer, Chris L'Etoile even stated that he thought what made the Geth unique was that they were NOT organics and didn't try to mimic them, but that really is another story.


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#44
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They dumped most ME2 squadmates because they were too hard to make as permanent companions when all of them could potentially be dead. I think Bioware realized as soon as they started developing 3 how much they'd shot themselves in the foot by making the suicide mission. But I'm sure they'll eventually do something like it again because it is a really satisfying way to make a final mission and I wouldn't have had it any other way.

 

But to quote one of the writers with a little paraphrasing:

 

"Yeah, it was tough to write! You'd have scenes with potentially dead people talking to other potentially dead people." - Patrick Weekes. It was just too risky to assign anyone from ME2 as a central character needed by the plot, but they still did a good job of including Mordin and Miranda I think. Legion too if it wasn't for the fact that Chris Hepler largely screwed over the geth identity by making them and EDI too seek to become "real" as if they were pinnocchio. Their old writer, Chris L'Etoile even stated that he thought what made the Geth unique was that they were NOT organics and didn't try to mimic them, but that really is another story.

well the SM was their own fault I loved it was epic but looking back I would rather we have something like that in ME3 and definitely not in ME2

maybe then the ME2 squadmates could at least temporary join you and be important in ME3 not just shafted and the final mission wouldn't be such a bore

 

but then again that would actually require that the good people at Bioware plan ahead which they definitely didn't did with the ME Trilogy



#45
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The suicide mission can be done with 8 squadmates and have everyone survive, so having 12 was just overkill. 



#46
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The suicide mission can be done with 8 squadmates and have everyone survive, so having 12 was just overkill. 

 

Counting out the two DLC characters, what two would you get rid of as squadmates then?

 

Personally I'd get rid of Miranda and Mordin.



#47
Alamar2078

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A combination of poor pre-planning, lack of follow-through, not wanting to put the effort in, etc. was the reason why most of the ME2 companions were pretty much hosed.  I understand they simply didn't want to put the effort into doing "cool things" for companions that may be dead.  The thought was to hose those companions over so the devs could develop content that everyone on virtually every playthrough could enjoy.

 

While the decision makes economic sense it doesn't yield a satisfying result.  If choice is valued then the proper payoff would be for the plot of the game to branch at some points giving people that made various choices distinctly different content than people that made different decisions.  For example if you save the Rackni (sp?) in ME1 then maybe you have to deal with them getting corrupted in ME3.  Otherwise maybe you can skip any of the Rackni-only missions && instead of having Rackni here & there to fight maybe they are replaced by Marauders or some other "goon level" enemy as your reward.  While not a significant branch it would have been better than choices being ignored because it was easy.



#48
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Counting out the two DLC characters, what two would you get rid of as squadmates then?

 

Personally I'd get rid of Miranda and Mordin.

If the ship upgrades didn't come from squadmates, I would get rid of Garrus and Jacob. Since they do, the other 2 would be betweem Jack/Samara, pick one and Thane



#49
Valmar

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They could still be on the ship without performing a squadmate role. Perhaps Garrus was too injured by the rocket to fight ground-side but can still support by maintaining the Normandy's cannon.

 

Hence why I'd remove Mordin and Miranda - their roles outside of being a squadmate are already significant enough to the story that they don't need further embellishment, imo.



#50
spockjedi

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The answer is in two words: Suicide Mission.

As there were 12 squadmates in ME2, the developers would have to adjust the game for the presence and the absence of each of them.
To make things worse, in ME3, the number of available squadmates from ME2 would range from 2 to 10, depending on the import. And there is also the possibility of a non-imported playthrough. That would make a gigantic difference. So they simply ruled that only those who were with Shepard since ME1 - Tali and Garrus - would return as squadmates.
About Liara and other despised squadmates, I understand what the developers intended. Liara was supposed to be a guarantee that at least one of the squadmates in ME1 would be alive in ME3 regardless of choices. Ashley, Kaidan and Wrex were not options because of Virmire, and Tali and Garrus, because they were in the Suicide Mission.
So Liara was a guaranteed biotic squadmate. The second choice-independent squadmate was EDI, a synthetic female tech expert. So the third squadmate had to be a (1) human (2) male (3) combat expert, namely James.
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