421 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

I wasn't too happy with the ME3 squad (Tali is my least favorite ME companion and I don't really care about Garrus and the VS either), but ME3 had already more written lines for than the first two Mass Effect games. Bioware kind of painted itself into a corner as far as having too many squadmates/romances and variables to account for in Mass Effect 3...and maybe that was a bit too ambitious. They have simply created too many squadmates and romances in the first two games. 17 squadmates, 10 romances (and they created even more romances in ME3). Then you have the suicide mission. It was inevitable that fans would feel shafted when it became apparent that some of their favorite characters/romances didn't get the attention it deserved (Morinth was certainly the worst...). Having fewer romances and a smaller cast would have been better, for everyone imo.

[Alamar2078]

I agree entirely with the idea that there were just too many variables to give each one justice. I blame poor pre-planning for most of it.  In the end I contend that the detours forced on the series by the decision to kill Shep at the beginning of ME2 and have Cerberus bring Shep back just weren't worth it.

[Cobwebmaster]

As a Spectre it was in Shepard's interest to keep the maximum opposition to reapers and Cerberus going at the same time. I think Shepard's role was sold short but Miranda's assuming she survived in ME2 and was loyal and she did in all my my games, was a huge resource that was just cast adrift to fend for herself?

[CptFalconPunch]

Well to answer your question, it wasn't.

[Alamar2078]

I didn't necessarily say that meeting Mordin or Samara or some of the other ME2 characters wasn't worthwhile.  You could still meet them, chat with them, do their loyalty missions, have them as ME2 squadmates, and use them on the suicide mission assuming you have one in ME2  You may even be able to use them to better effect POST-suicide mission to act as agents for Shepard because you should have more than enough evidence of what's going on.

 

The key in the game design would be to use the illusion of control combined with magician's choice and similar tricks to minimize the number of variables.  For example perhaps you decide to have a suicide mission where teammates could really die.  You're already backing yourself into a corner but there are ways that you could cheat the system.  For example you pick the wrong person to crawl through the tunnels.  Instead of the "random" character you pick winding up dead maybe Kasumi or Tali runs up, tries to help, and takes the rocket to the face instead of the character you picked.  The key is to make sure it's always that one character and you add that layer of predictability to the equation.

 

The really important part would be to pick characters that would be logically expendable BUT that you still have an emotional attachment to.  If you role play maybe you're attached to Ken & Gabby but maybe they die if you don't get the "hull improvements".  It's an emotional loss but doesn't impact the overall arch of the series.  I liked Kasumi & Thane and wouldn't want to see them die BUT they would be logical targets esp. if you don't have much planned for them later.

[KaiserShep]

of course it was worth it we did get to know many awesome characters (the ME2 squad is the best squad in the trilogy if you ask me) but Bioware just messed up with ME3 

the ME2 squadmates should have been squadmates and important to the story not reduced to shitty cameos

and to people who say they all had good reasons..that doesn't matter just look at Liara the freaking Shadow Broker going on missions with Shepard

 

if Bioware wanted them on the ME3 squad they would have done it but because of poor planning (the SM in ME2) they couldn't 

 

the ME1 favouritsm in ME3 is annoying as hell but thats just classic Bioware

--> ME1 squad fans complained in ME2 that their LI's and favourite characters were shafted --> Bioware "fixes" it in ME3 by giving them the spotlight (especially Liara was shoved in our faces) and screwing the ME2 squad over

 

sadly we have no ME4 so that the ME2 squad gets the spotlight again.

 

Thing is, most of the squadmates in ME2 were not even that important in that game's plot either. They were mainly there to have more companions and open up the world of Mass Effect, but most of them didn't serve any greater purpose in the overarching plot of the trilogy from their introduction onward. The only ones that did were Mordin, Tali and Legion, and only the latter two actually make a real difference in the plot of ME3, since their presence is mandatory to get the "optimal" resolution in a major arc.

 

The only ME2 companion that had a great deal of potential to be even more relevant was Miranda, but no one else. This is the only companion that I'd really consider to have a real reason to return to the ship and be a regular squad member, because of her direct ties to the antagonist.

[Valmar]

 

the ME2 squadmates should have been squadmates and important to the story not reduced to shitty cameos

and to people who say they all had good reasons..that doesn't matter just look at Liara the freaking Shadow Broker going on missions with Shepard

 

 

Some of the ME2 squadmates do have important roles to the story. Miranda, Thane, Mordin, Legion, Tali.

 

Also keep in mind the context that the Shadow Broker's network has been severely limited and the base was destroyed by Cerberus.

 

 

the ME1 favouritsm in ME3 is annoying as hell but thats just classic Bioware

--> ME1 squad fans complained in ME2 that their LI's and favourite characters were shafted --> Bioware "fixes" it in ME3 by giving them the spotlight (especially Liara was shoved in our faces) and screwing the ME2 squad over

 

In the same breath you use to accuse Bioware of ME1 favoritism you also point out how they were shafted in  the second game. What you're basically saying is that you don't personally like the ME1 squad and wish they favored ME2 squad instead.

 

Liara and the Virmire survivor are the only two characters who were not squadmates in ME2, meaning they are the bases of your 'favoritism' argument. Liara absolutely fits into the story, no matter how much you say she was 'shoved in our faces' - she fits in her role so perfectly that to exclude her from it would had been an enormous mistake. This coming from someone who doesn't even like Liara.

 

As for the virmire survivor, well, I'd hardly call what they did to them to be 'favoritism'. They spend the first half of the game doubting you and being annoying, pointing a gun at you and then when you're halfway through the game they're like "hey, want me on your squad?" I've heard their Normandy interaction be criticized rather harshly too. Oh and btw you can even tell them to go to hell - you can even shoot them! OH THE FAVORITISM!

 

So ultimately the only ME1 squadmate you're complaining about really is Liara and her inclusion makes perfect sense to the lore, again to the point that it being anyone else would be silly. They'd have to completely rewrite the story to make her 'forced' inclusion feel anything other than natural.

 

You want to talk about forced roles, I consider Miranda and her faddah to a far bigger force. Its like they just wanted to make her important in the story and play a part so they shoehorned her and her faddah into the mix. Oh, the sister too. Because why not.

[KLGChaos]

Part of the problem with ME2, imo, was that it was disjointed from the rest of the trilogy. It was a poor segue between the first and third games, feeling much more like a standalone game than part of a series. A new cast, it didn't really move the overall plot forward other than telling us that the Protheans are now working for the Reapers as they find a new way to get to our galaxy. We already knew they were coming, so I always thought ME2 would be about how we start preparing for the incoming Reaper threat now that we bought some time by shutting down Sovereign's plans.

Sadly, they decided to take this detour instead which lead to a lot of extra characters added instead of developing the originals more... Because the characters weren't as important to the story, they were then pushed to the side to focus on the original cast again.

While my interest in new ME games is low, I'm hoping they plan better next time instead of winging every game's plot as it goes along, so we don't get hiccups like this. I enjoyed ME2, I just felt it didn't fit with the rest of the series.

[Mister J]

Uh... I disagree a lot with the above Miranda comments: Miranda's story in ME3 isn't all that important to the plot and it's more of a story on it's own that is never seen but only hinted at. Seeing how Cerberus is the enemy in ME3 I think it's quite baffling how nobody, not Shepard or the Alliance, is going to Miranda for information about Cerberus, not asking about Cerberus strategies or even asking her where Illusive Man's base is -she was there! at the beginning of Me2-. She would be a major contributor in the fight against Cerberus, it's a plotpoint that's practically screaming in everybody's face. Instead her story is a rehashing of the Oriana plot, which to me is a sign of a great deal of disinterest in the character from the writers part...

[themikefest]

 

its obvious you are a Liara fan so you didn't notice she wasn'T forced on us?? she stalked my Shep to death in ME3 

sure her finding the Cruicble made sense I'm not even talking about that but all the forced stalking just got on my nerves everytime my Shep wanted to leave his room or woke up she was shoved in his face 

of course you forgot about that 

 

 

She never found any plans

 

There is 3 scenes with T'soni and Shepard that added up to a whole lot of nothing. 

 

1) After talking with Hackett, the two of them talk about nothing. There was no purpose for that.

2) After the first dream. Why is she there? She tells us about the Turians not helping until we get the Primarch. We already knew that. Why does she need to tells us something we already know? Maybe she's trying out to be a replay official for the NFL. I don't know.

3) After the second dream she tells us the Salarian councilor wants to talk. Really? The intercom doesn't work? I would like to ask her if it was faster to come up to the cabin to tell me that instead of using the intercom. Or better yet, edi can tell me or Traynor can tell me by using the intercom.

[Valmar]

Uh... I disagree a lot with the above Miranda comments: Miranda's story in ME3 isn't all that important to the plot and it's more of a story on it's own that is never seen but only hinted at.

 

No one said she was THAT important to the plot, you're exaggerating the argument. I said she plays an important role in the story and she does. Could she easily be substituted for someone else? Sure, infact I think she should be because it felt shoehorned to me. She still arrives at a key moment and provides critical information that ties in to the main story. Some of the other ME2 squadies, like Jack, only have minor little side mission roles. Miranda is in the MAIN MISSION of the game. She is mandatory (if alive) which is partly the point.

 

 

 Seeing how Cerberus is the enemy in ME3 I think it's quite baffling how nobody, not Shepard or the Alliance, is going to Miranda for information about Cerberus, not asking about Cerberus strategies or even asking her where Illusive Man's base is -she was there! at the beginning of Me2-. She would be a major contributor in the fight against Cerberus,

 

Well she is fighting Cerberus and the codex mentions it. So it isn't completely dismissed. Also people who say "she knows where the base is!" are working off a false assumption. She doesn't know where the base is. I don't expect everyone to realize this because not everyone reads all the lore but its made clear in the novels that The Illusive Man relocates the base after every visit. She knew where it was once upon a time. After she left he moved it to keep the location secret. Seriously, guys, you expect him to keep the base in the same location even after she turned against him? Even if you didn't know he was paranoid and always moved the base anyway, come on... that's pretty silly.

 

The lore explains that 'plothole' if you look for the answer.

 

 

Instead her story is a rehashing of the Oriana plot, which to me is a sign of a great deal of disinterest in the character from the writers part...

 

Which makes them shoehorning her into the main story line and giving her an important role seem all the all more ridiculous. Between her being shoehorned into the mainstory and Liara, which one is really 'forced' on us? That was my argument. Liara is not 'forced' because her importance fits perfectly with the character. She fills the role she was originally designed to fill in the story. She is the prothean expert of the series.

 

Miranda and her faddah being involved in the main story and being important roles in the overall plot.... thats forced. That's really forced. IMO they should had never had Miranda rebel against Cerberus in ME2 and had that be a plot element of ME3. Maybe have her see how far TIM has gone and secretly work against him from the inside, sending Shepard information or something. That would had made more sense then shoehorning her into an important position in the main story.

 

 

 

lol Miranda wasn't important to the plot without the Citadel dlc she was barely in the game three lame conversations with an even lamer goodbye scene (with auto dialouge only)

sure she was important on Horizon but that was just one mission

 

lol she wasn't important well she was one time lol

 

Dude, relax.

 

She was made an important role in the main story. That doesn't mean she IS THE STORY, SHE IS EVERYTHING MY LOVE MY LIFE MY ALL. She was still given an important role for advancing the MAIN STORY plot. She and her faddah, especially her faddah, were shoehorned into it. Yet you claim Liara, the character who was established since the beginning as being the prothean expert, was FORCED into the story. Emotional bias much?

 

 

 

if anything she should have been a lot more important in ME3 given her previous history with cerberus now that would have been fitting considerung Cerberus importance in the story but of course she is forced on us even with her cameos in your opinion 

 

Yes, absolutely. She should have been important for bigger, more valid reasons. They had a lot to work with. Hence why I say her inclusion in the story is FORCED. Because it doesn't flow naturally, she shoehorned her into it. That doesn't mean that that was the only way they could had included her. It just means they included her in a terrible way.

 

Im not saying her having importance to the plot would be a forced element. It wouldn't. I'm saying HOW SHE IS IMPORTANT IN THE STORY AS IT STANDS is forced.

 

 

 

 

its obvious you are a Liara fan so you didn't notice she wasn'T forced on us?? she stalked my Shep to death in ME3 

sure her finding the Cruicble made sense I'm not even talking about that but all the forced stalking just got on my nerves everytime my Shep wanted to leave his room or woke up she was shoved in his face 

of course you forgot about that

 

oh lol so obvious.

 

I don't like Liara. I don't Asari in general, except for Samara. Liara bugs me. I found her obsession with Shepard in ME to be disturbing and her sudden personality change ME2 to be conflicting. I do not like Liara. Do not make up assumptions about me especially when I explicitly made it clear earlier that I do not like her. I take offense to that.

 

Her inclusion in the story is NOT forced. If you think it is then you know nothing about the character. She is a prothean expert, shes dedicated her life to understanding protheans. It flows naturally to have her involved in the story that involves us finding a secret weapon in prothean archives. She couldn't possiblity fit any better in the role they made for her in the story - its the role she was written to fill since the first game. Comparing her character's significance and relevance to the role she plays in ME3 to Miranda and her faddahs is grossly inaccurate.

 

Also, no, I didn't forget about that. Her interactions are too forced on us. Interactions with her however are not the same as the overall story. Which is the bases of my argument.

 

 

Also just because her network is limited doesn't mean her being the shadow broker should be useless and she incompetent hell all the things Traynor finds out (Grissom Academy, Horizon etc.) should have been done by her

 

I never said it should be useless. The context was to explain why its fesible she could fill in that role aboard the Normandy. She hijacked Miranda's old office and turned it into a miniature Shadow Broker control center. Given how much smaller the scope of her operations are now in the story as the Shadow Broker its easier to understand why she wouldn't require full-time dedication onboard a giant Shadowbroker Ship to do her work.

[Valmar]

yeah I agree she was shoved in our faces soo often in ME3 with no reasonable explanations

my Shep just got annoyed with her and wanted her to stop stalking me sadly the option was never given

 

so much for her role being "natural" and fitting as some Liara fan said

lol

 

I don't appreciate your tone. Her importance to the story /is/ natural and fitting. It matters not how much you hate or like her (I don't like her, btw, surprise) you'd have to be ignorant to the lore to not realize that. She was established since the first game as being a prothean expert. She is introduced to us in ME3 as being involved in the research project that lead to the discover of the prothean  super weapon that ultimately leads to our victory over the reapers. Who better to fill in this role? Who better to be studying and researching prothean archives? We recruited her in the first game AT A PROTHEAN DIG SITE. She fits the role perfectly, it is the role her character was made to fill. Anything that has something to do with protheans it would make perfect sense, in the narrative and the lore, to include Liara.

 

Its like saying Hackett doesn't make any sense to be involved in the war. He was always involved in this stuff, he isn't forced into a situation. It's like saying it doesn't make sense that Legion is important to the story of the geth. He was made for that role. It's like saying Mordin doesn't make sense to have a big importance in the genophage arc. He was made for that role. Do you understand now? Liara's significance in story is not forced and flows naturally with the character they created for her. It is the role she was designed to fill.

 

I do not, in any way, see Liara's inclusion and importance to the story to be 'ME1 favoritism' but rather it see it being a very logical flow of events and story elements that all sit together. She is fulfilling the role designed for her. Infact I would argue that ME3 shows more respect to her character's purpose in the story then ME2 did, which wildly changed the character to incorporate the Shadow Broker arc.

 

Miranda and her faddah suddenly being an important part the way they are on Horizon? Now that's forced. Her dad just happens to be the lead scinetist responsible for Cerberus' reaper indoctrination research? She just happens to be there, on this vengeful quest to stop her faddah and save her sisstah. It's all shoehorned. Of all the ways they could had included Miranda THAT is what we get? You don't see THAT as forced?

[Iakus]

Some of the ME2 squadmates do have important roles to the story. Miranda, Thane, Mordin, Legion, Tali.

 

Also keep in mind the context that the Shadow Broker's network has been severely limited and the base was destroyed by Cerberus.

 

Tali and Legion are important, as tehir presence is a requirement for peace on Rannoch.

 

But I'd say Thane's importance is limited, and Miranda and Mordin aren't important at all outside their general popularity.

 

After all, Thane is only there to ensure the Salarian Councilor's survival, something that can be done by Kirahe as well (though he has to be alive and you lose his oh-so-important numbers as a War Asset  )

 

And Miranda's role on Sanctuary is replaced by Oriana if Miranda is dead.

 

And Mordin's role is replaced by Padok Wiks which unfolds exactly the same either way.

 

I mean, face-it, almost every companion and former companion either has minimal impact, a stand-in, or both.  Very few are actually important to the story or seriously alter things (I'd say Tali, Legion, Liara, and Wrex are about it)

[Alamar2078]

@Lakus:  I believe that the conscious decision not to limit content for those that made specific decisions [or didn't play prior games] is exactly what took away a lot of the importance of "choice" and earlier events in the game.  While I understand the tradeoff I can't say that I agree with the tradeoff.

 

As for Liara I don't necessarily think she was the "pet" but she was a convenient tool that would be in [IIRC] everyone's game without exception.  Basically Liara was a hammer and every [narrative] problem became a nail so we got a lot more of her than many would have otherwise have wanted.

[Iakus]

@Lakus:  I believe that the conscious decision not to limit content for those that made specific decisions [or didn't play prior games] is exactly what took away a lot of the importance of "choice" and earlier events in the game.  While I understand the tradeoff I can't say that I agree with the tradeoff.

 

Oh I agree.  I saw that coming well before ME3.  And it's why I had very low expectations going in (and suprisingly, they still managed to disappoint me in a few cases)

[von uber]

Isn't there about 3 mandatory conversations with Liara in the game? Can't be more than that (excluding Mars / Thessia missions obviously).

[Larry-3]

I know I am probably stating the obvious to a lot of people, but you have the best party in Mass Effect 2.

[KaiserShep]

I know I am probably stating the obvious to a lot of people, but you have the best party in Mass Effect 2.

 

I think the problem with them though is that it glosses over the lack of real purpose for most of the recruitment missions. Mordin and Warlord Okeer are the only ones with a clear reason to be picked for the mission. It can be argued though that Garrus and Tali were picked because they were familiar faces, like Joker, though the former is tricky since Shepard can potentially only meet him briefly in the Citadel tower and leave him behind. The rest are totally random. Legion gets a pass for not being on the list at all, and you can just as well get rid of it before even speaking to the thing. I think the worst offender is Jack. This was definitely a character that should have given us the option to deny, because there's no good reason given to allow her on-board, but every reason in the universe to leave her for dead. This seems fitting I guess, given the forced alliance with Cerberus that we have no choice in, save objection. I like how Zaeed is basically the only companion that can actually die in his own loyalty mission.

[Valmar]

^ did you even read my post?

 

The irony. You kept complaining about Liara being forced on us but didn't acknowledge that Miranda was the one forced on us. You may not be happy with it but you're still signaling out Liara and glossing over how forced Miranda was in the story.

 

 

 I'm talking about how she is always stalking Shepard

 

Seems pretty consistent of her character. She's always had a crush on the commander. Like I said before ME3 actually respects her character more than ME2 does. You know she's the only reason Shepard is alive right now and not a collector toy. Her obsession with Shepard is something thats always turned me off about her but it is within her character since she was written that way from the start. Miranda, in hindsight, behaves to the LI in ME3 the way I would expect her to. She's a cold individual, not very emotional or attached. You know, unless its her sistah. She's gaga for her sistah and faddah.

 

 

she is the writer's pet its obvious and I'm not a fan of that

 

Her insignificance in ME2 disproves this assertion. Much to the dismay of Liara fans, I would imagine. She is practically forgotten, unless you paid for the DLC. If she is their pet she'd be dead from maltreatment in ME2. Lol.
 

 

 

But I'd say Thane's importance is limited, and Miranda and Mordin aren't important at all outside their general popularity.

 

After all, Thane is only there to ensure the Salarian Councilor's survival, something that can be done by Kirahe as well (though he has to be alive and you lose his oh-so-important numbers as a War Asset  )

 

And Miranda's role on Sanctuary is replaced by Oriana if Miranda is dead.

 

And Mordin's role is replaced by Padok Wiks which unfolds exactly the same either way.

 

Irrelevant. It does not matter that "oh, well, if they're dead they're replaced" their character still played an important role if the story in they're alive. Thane saved the councilor, if not for him he'd be dead. Sure, if Thane is dead he is replaced but Shepard doesn't know that. You're bringing in meta-gaming standards which, imo, aren't a fair bases. If we do that no one matters because everyone has stand-ins (unfortunately).

 

Miranda was important if she is alive because she is the one who can lead you to the Illusive Man's base. Just because she could be replaced doesn't mean she is completely irrelevant to the story. She's important in the story if shes in the story.

 

Mordin was important to the story because he was the one who was the inside source and the one who cures the genophage. He's the most important one out of all three. Just because he can be replaced doesn't subtract from the important role his character fills if he is alive.

 

 

I mean, face-it, almost every companion and former companion either has minimal impact, a stand-in, or both.  Very few are actually important to the story or seriously alter things (I'd say Tali, Legion, Liara, and Wrex are about it)

 

I agree. I like the ME2 squad more than ME1 and ME3's so I would had loved for them not to be just minor side missions. Though that doesn't mean we should pretend  they're all useless. Tali, Legion, Liara, Wrex, Thane, Mordin, Miranda all have important roles in the main story of the game. Not just side-missions. I won't overlook that just because someone elses playthrough can replace them. They were important for my game's story. I agree it sucks that they have replacements at all, since it removes punishment for failure in ME2, but it doesn't remove their importance to the story.

 

So when someone says that ME1 squad gets 'favoritism' I feel obligated to correct them. They do not get favoritism. Tali and Garrus do not count as they're also in ME2. We have just as many characters from ME2 playing important roles in the story than we do ME1 characters. Whos important to the story from ME1? Liara and Wrex. Who's important from ME2? Legion, Mordin, Thane, Miranda, EDI. 

 

That doesn't mean I don't think ME2 squad should had gotten MORE attention or that I'm not disappointed none of them join you. It just means I'm not going to exaggerate the problem just for sake of drama.