421 réponses à ce sujet

[DuskWanderer]

No one would like my version of ME3 and I'm not talking about the post that you quoted. 

 

I think you sell yourself short, friend. I might not like the whole thing, but you know, I'm sure there are parts we would like. 

 

 

But there's no reason to argue about Liara. You're right. She's forced upon us as our best friend. There is no reason for Liara to be consoling us after Tuchanka, I was perfectly happy with what happened. I'm okay with the nightmare (since, in truth, nightmares are something you can't control), I'm just upset about Shepard's reaction to it. 

 

The reason is that she is Mary Sue. That's really all their is to it. 

[Valmar]

 

The reason is that she is Mary Sue. That's really all their is to it. 

 

Is that how you view her? Interesting. I felt was pretty incompetent. She kept getting one-up'd by Cerberus who aren't exactly pinnacles of competence. I found Miranda's character to be significantly more Mary Sue than Liara. Though in fairness the writers fully embraced that with her character and didn't try to pretend she was anything anyway.

[Livi14]

Is that how you view her? Interesting. I felt was pretty incompetent. She kept getting one-up'd by Cerberus who aren't exactly pinnacles of competence. I found Miranda's character to be significantly more Mary Sue than Liara. Though in fairness the writers fully embraced that with her character and didn't try to pretend she was anything anyway.

Isn't a "Mary Sue" a character that's portrayed as overtly competent and loved by everyone? As everyone on the squad, Miranda is portrayed as someone who is competent in what she's doing, but she has clearly drawn flaws. And she's definitely not loved by everyone in the MEU (the same applies to Liara). Jack for example hates Miranda and Ashley doesn't like Liara. Other characters around them act exactly as you would expect them to.

I think "Mary Sue" nowadays just means "A character I don't like gets attention."

[Vazgen]

If there is a Mary Sue character in the trilogy, it's Paragon Shepard

[Valmar]

Isn't a "Mary Sue" a character that's portrayed as overtly competent and loved by everyone? As everyone on the squad, Miranda is portrayed as someone who is competent in what she's doing, but she has clearly drawn flaws. And she's definitely not loved by everyone in the MEU (the same applies to Liara). Jack for example hates Miranda and Ashley doesn't like Liara. Other characters around them act exactly as you would expect them to.

I think "Mary Sue" nowadays just means "A character I don't like gets attention."

 

As the term has no absolute, universally accepted definition and is open to minor interpretations I still feel valid in saying she is more 'Mary Sue' than Liara. For me 'Mary Sue' is a character that is overly perfect and excels at everything. Being loved by everyone is something I add to the term, yes.  Though I didn't say Miranda was Mary Sue - I said she's more of a Mary Sue relative to Liara.

 

"Miranda was genetically engineered to be a specimen of human perfection. Everything, from her intelligence, physical constitution, biotic abilities, to her appearance were designed before birth to be excellent. She boasts about being able to shoot a mech's head off from 100 meters away or just as easily crush it with her biotic powers. Miranda also heals faster than other humans and will probably live half a lifespan longer. If Shepard accuses her of being cocky, she retorts that she's only stating the facts."

 

Sure, she lacks the popularity of the crew but her entire character is based around her being perfect.

[Livi14]

As the term has no absolute, universally accepted definition and is open to minor interpretations I still feel valid in saying she is more 'Mary Sue' than Liara. For me 'Mary Sue' is a character that is overly perfect and excels at everything. Being loved by everyone is something I add to the term, yes.  Though I didn't say Miranda was Mary Sue - I said she's more of a Mary Sue relative to Liara.
 
"Miranda was genetically engineered to be a specimen of human perfection. Everything, from her intelligence, physical constitution, biotic abilities, to her appearance were designed before birth to be excellent. She boasts about being able to shoot a mech's head off from 100 meters away or just as easily crush it with her biotic powers. Miranda also heals faster than other humans and will probably live half a lifespan longer. If Shepard accuses her of being cocky, she retorts that she's only stating the facts."
 
Sure, she lacks the popularity of the crew but her entire character is based around her being perfect.

Ah ok, I can agree with that

[Seishoujyo]

As a Miranda fan it was the biggest letdown of all the trilogy. Not having her in ME3 was just too weird because she could be more important to the plot (the Cerberus part) than Tali who was pretty much useless and just a fanboy decision.

 

And it would be very interesting to have Miranda on the Normandy and see how she would interact with James or Ashley who don't really like Cerberus.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Isn't a "Mary Sue" a character that's portrayed as overtly competent and loved by everyone? As everyone on the squad, Miranda is portrayed as someone who is competent in what she's doing, but she has clearly drawn flaws. And she's definitely not loved by everyone in the MEU (the same applies to Liara). Jack for example hates Miranda and Ashley doesn't like Liara. Other characters around them act exactly as you would expect them to.

I think "Mary Sue" nowadays just means "A character I don't like gets attention."

 

It has a lot of interpretations, TV Tropes has a summary.

 

As for Liara I do think she fits several of the definitions, except for the one that started it all. I don't hate or even dislike her as a character, I just think she's not a particularly well written one primarily due to the massive changes she undergoes each game and the awful start she gets in ME1. BioWare should have called her Liarb in ME2 and Liarc in ME3.

[Livi14]

 

It has a lot of interpretations, TV Tropes has a summary.

 

As for Liara I do think she fits several of the definitions, except for the one that started it all. I don't hate or even dislike her as a character, I just think she's not a particularly well written one primarily due to the massive changes she undergoes each game and the awful start she gets in ME1. BioWare should have called her Liarb in ME2 and Liarc in ME3.

 

I guess a case could be made that she's a "Relationship Sue", but even that's debatable.

I think the old "an inherently good person in an inherently bad situation" arc was in effect here. Liara is obviously alot more jaded and cynical in ME2 and ME3, and has lost alot of her naivette and worldliness. I think that's pretty much indisputable. I happen to feel though that she's maintained her core personality throughout the series.

[jtrook]

I think some of it was time constraints. The other parts were probably boiling down to scheduling issues with the voice actors (Miranda's was filming Dexter at the time)

[KaiserShep]

Sure, she lacks the popularity of the crew but her entire character is based around her being perfect.

 

The difference is that she's "perfect" insofar that she was designed specifically to be that way in-universe. If she was just an ordinary person who happened to be faster, stronger and more intelligent because of reasons, then that's one thing, but she was born in a test tube, tailored by an egomaniac, and it's something that actually bothers her.

[Mister J]

My issue with the Me2 squad is that I feel being left somewhat unsatisfied with the way their stories were told and concluded. I believe that there is a lot more to some characters than is being given. Not all of them, I mean I like Grunt but there's not much to him other than being a bloody minded killing machine. But others, like Kasumi, Thane, Miranda, Mordin, they could have been protagonists of their own games - like a stealth based Kasumi game about infiltration buildings and stealing stuff or a Thane game that is essentially Hitman or Sniper Elite in the Mass Effect universe. I guess that is a compliment to the writers of Bioware: their sidecharacters are good enough as protagonists of ordinary games, but I still feel unsatisfied.

 

And that is why I am not so happy for the moment about ME4 being a different story from the trilogy, as those characters' stories will have not much of a chance of being expanded further. However, since I heard about this game (dlc?) were Garrus is the protagonist, I'm thinking that if they could also make such games for the above mentioned characters that I think are truly interesting, and not this random Turian or Tali the random Quarian, whom I think are already oversaturated, that would make me happy... well, happier...

[GalacticWolf5]

Now I heard about this game (dlc?) were Garrus is the protagonist

 

There is no game or dlc where Garrus is the protagonist.

[Mister J]

So that was a rumour? Wishful thinking?

[GalacticWolf5]

Maybe you're talking about that rumor from a while back that said Garrus could be the protagonist of the Next Mass Effect. That rumor was wrong anyways

[Valmar]

The difference is that she's "perfect" insofar that she was designed specifically to be that way in-universe. If she was just an ordinary person who happened to be faster, stronger and more intelligent because of reasons, then that's one thing, but she was born in a test tube, tailored by an egomaniac, and it's something that actually bothers her.

 

 

True, though I did acknowledge that in the post you're quoting. She's still a character designed to be perfect regardless. Which was my point. IMO a big part about being 'Mary Sue' is excelling at everything and being perfect. Miranda is a character who's entire story arc works on the notion that she was created perfect. Perfect body, perfect looks, perfect healing, perfect biotics, perfect intelligence, perfect perfect perfect. She even makes a note to tell you just how perfect she is (just facts). The only flaws she has is one from her dramatic backstory (also trope with Mary Sue characters, coincidentally), emotional issues about her faddah and the fact that she can't have children.

 

She's ridiculously brilliant, she was the head of the project that resurrected a charred corpse. She has exceptional combat skills. She practically operates and runs the Normandy. Her biotics are on-par with that of an Asari justicar if the suicide mission is to be used as evidence.

 

IMO between Liara and Miranda it is Miranda who ranks top in terms of competence and excelling at whatever she does. Liara, even without the comparison to Perfect Miranda, is a bit of a bumbling child. One who is constantly being one-up'd or manipulated by Cerberus, of all people. If it was Miranda who took over the Shadowbroker's base (this would have actually fitted with the character too, unlike Liara who is practically a different person at this point) I would bet you my space hamster that she wouldn't had lost the base to Cerberus nor should the Shadowbroker's respect be dwindling.

 

Again, I'm not saying she is Mary Sue. Like Livi mentioned being loved and liked by everyone is a pretty big part of the trope as well and frankly I don't think anyone other than Jacob and romance-seeking Shepard really liked her. Still between her and Liara it's definitely Miranda, imo, that checks off the most marks on the 'Mary Sue' list. If she was actually loved or even liked by the crew it would be a full on Mary Sue.

[Daemul]

I still don't understand why the writers made Liara the shadowbroker, she would need to have a drastic change in character and morals for it to work out. I know they tried to make her more cynical about things in the later games, but that does not a Shadow Broker make, and like Valmar says, her core personality remained the same.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The difference is that she's "perfect" insofar that she was designed specifically to be that way in-universe. If she was just an ordinary person who happened to be faster, stronger and more intelligent because of reasons, then that's one thing, but she was born in a test tube, tailored by an egomaniac, and it's something that actually bothers her.

 

Look at something like the beginning of ME2 where she shoots Wilson. Her justification for how she knew Wilson was the traitor, was that she, "Is never wrong." We can never question or reprimand her for doing something so suspicious and dumb, with so pathetic a justification. There's no evidence. Instead we're forced to agree with her because she is 'perfect' in ways that go beyond her background and the writers want us to know it. i think that's where her Mary Sue-ness creeps in.

[Barquiel]

I still don't understand why the writers made Liara the shadowbroker, she would need to have a drastic change in character and morals for it to work out. I know they tried to make her more cynical about things in the later games, but that does not a Shadow Broker make, and like Valmar says, her core personality remained the same.

I think the writers had the right idea with making Liara seize control of the Shadow Broker network. The mistake was in not making it a bigger deal in ME3. I mean, why wouldn't she seize control of it? Liara saw the opportunity to become the Shadow Broker to get information that could help Shepard against the reapers. That makes more sense than the alternative which was just to destroy the SB ship after defeating the yahg and call it a day.

I also think it wouldn't have made much sense if someone had simply "stumbled" across the crucible plans. An archaeologist using something like the SB ressources was probably necessary to make finding the blueprints at least somewhat believable after all these years.

[Valmar]

I think the writers had the right idea with making Liara seize control of the Shadow Broker network. The mistake was in not making it a bigger deal in ME3. I mean, why wouldn't she seize control of it? Liara saw the opportunity to become the Shadow Broker to get information that could help Shepard against the reapers. That makes more sense than the alternative which was just to destroy the SB ship after defeating the yahg and call it a day.
 

 

I get why she did it, sure. It'd be a waste not to. It's only strange that it is Liara who is placed in that position to take control in the first place. Why Liara? Why specifically her? You don't think Miranda would be better suited for such a role? We could still replace the shadowbroker and the resources there.

 

 

I also think it wouldn't have made much sense if someone had simply "stumbled" across the crucible plans. An archaeologist using something like the SB ressources was probably necessary to make finding the blueprints at least somewhat believable after all these years.

 

She is a prothean expert. It makes sense that she'd play a big part in finding the crucible. Its everywhere that she falls short. Remember Eve? Working right under her nose the entire time. Sound familiar? Shadowbroker's agent in ME2 that was also working under her nose. How did we find her in the first game?

 

Though it doesn't look like her SB resources really had anything to do with finding the crucible. They were on the mars archive, our scientists just never found it because reasons.

[themikefest]

I think the writers had the right idea with making Liara seize control of the Shadow Broker network. The mistake was in not making it a bigger deal in ME3. I mean, why wouldn't she seize control of it? Liara saw the opportunity to become the Shadow Broker to get information that could help Shepard against the reapers. That makes more sense than the alternative which was just to destroy the SB ship after defeating the yahg and call it a day.

I also think it wouldn't have made much sense if someone had simply "stumbled" across the crucible plans. An archaeologist using something like the SB ressources was probably necessary to make finding the blueprints at least somewhat believable after all these years.

This is what I would've done.

 

Liara continues studying the Protheans trying to find something that might help stop the reapers. Liara is seen back on Illium to check on a few things and then head out to another digsite. She tells Shepard that she has noticed the broker agents watching her, but not giving her any problems. She asks someone to check on why they are watching her. She tells Shepard  where to locate that person and the dlc goes from there.

 

Shepard and squad face the broker. If Shepard has enough points, he/she can convince the broker to help fight the reapers at which point he sends all information hea has about the Protheans to Liara. If Shepard doesn't have enough to convince the broker, the broker is killed, Shepard sends all information about the Protheans to T'soni. He/she sends the ship crashing into the planet.

 

If the dlc is not played,  Liara will tell you on Mars that the broker sent information to her about the Protheans and it led her to Mars

 

There was no need to make her an information broker.

[Vazgen]

IMO making her both a squadmate and Shadow Broker was a wrong decision. I mean, who in their sane mind will take one of their most important assets to missions where she can die. It's like getting Primarch Victus as a squadmate, except that you can't replace Shadow Broker as easily. 

I also think that she comes out as more competent Prothean expert on non-import runs. Eden Prime mission, in particular, makes you think that she is indeed an expert on Protheans. Of course, it all gets flushed down the toilet after Javik awakens and doesn't match any of her expectations.

[Han Shot First]

IMO making her both a squadmate and Shadow Broker was a wrong decision. I mean, who in their sane mind will take one of their most important assets to missions where she can die. 

 

The kind of person who also goes into battle with Quarian Admirals, Turians in the line of succession for Primarch, the last surviving Prothean, and Krogan kings.

[Vazgen]

The kind of person who also goes into battle with Quarian Admirals, Turians in the line of succession for Primarch, the last surviving Prothean, and Krogan kings.

Agreed, doesn't make much sense either Though tbh, we don't know how far down the line Garrus is. Wrex is just letting out steam and Javik would kick Shepard's ass if he decides otherwise Tali... she says it herself, she is much better at hacking than ordering ships around. I'd say she's better far off the Admiralty Board

[themikefest]

The kind of person who also goes into battle with Quarian Admirals, Turians in the line of succession for Primarch, the last surviving Prothean, and Krogan kings.

Didn't Garrus go crying to his father about the reapers. Makes me wonder why he didn't do that after the SR1 blew up.To shut his son up, his father spoke to whoever and made him an advisor. I wouldn't put him in line for anything. Tali being an Admiral was a joke and having Javic as the last Prothean fight makes sense since he's out for revenge and he's alive in a time he doesn't want to be in. Krogan king? You mean Wrex and Wreav. What fighting did they do in ME3? Oh you mean the dlc where Bioware made Wrex a squadmate and overlooked the ME2 squadmates. If you mean ME1, Wrex was just a bounty hunter.