27 réponses à ce sujet

[Pierce Miller]

So one problem I have with mass effect 3 (not the ending strangely enough) is that there seems to be an incredible lack of choice, Dialogue options seem to be more or less the same thing but said in either an angry or soft tone and most of the time there are only two options. Even the neutral option seems to have vanished entirely. At some points in the story Shepard will speak for himself, expressing views that my character would never have. The best example I can give of all this is when the Illusive man talks about the merits of controlling the Reapers, I happened to agree with him on that yet Shepard seems to be thinking for himself now and this ultimately separated me from the character. In fact the game series has become less and less RPG-like as time has moved on and this concerns me because what if they decide to remove choice entirely in the next instalment? What if the next game is just a third person shooter with "RPG elements". The thought genuinely horrifies me.

[Vazgen]

Mass Effect 3 was a third installment in the series. The player character changed from ME1 to ME2 no less than from ME2 to ME3 in my experience. But in ME2 there was a clear explanation - he died. In ME3 when they had to account all the player choices throughout the trilogy they sacrificed a portion of character development (which, arguably, should not be that extensive in the final part of a trilogy). You also knew a lot about the universe so there were less Investigate options as well. I'm pretty sure that with new environment, species and characters in ME:Next we'll get a much more extensive dialogue wheel with a few improvements, probably. They won't remove it, their games are notorious for that element and removing it is not something that will work well for them. 

[Pierce Miller]

Mass Effect 3 was a third installment in the series. The player character changed from ME1 to ME2 no less than from ME2 to ME3 in my experience. But in ME2 there was a clear explanation - he died. In ME3 when they had to account all the player choices throughout the trilogy they sacrificed a portion of character development (which, arguably, should not be that extensive in the final part of a trilogy). You also knew a lot about the universe so there were less Investigate options as well. I'm pretty sure that with new environment, species and characters in ME:Next we'll get a much more extensive dialogue wheel with a few improvements, probably. They won't remove it, their games are notorious for that element and removing it is not something that will work well for them.

True but certain parts of the story felt forced, if I'm roleplaying the character then the character shouldn't form opinions independently.

[Vazgen]

True but certain parts of the story felt forced, if I'm roleplaying the character then the character shouldn't form opinions independently.

That's true, player character sometimes spoke for great lengths without player's intervention. To be honest, it was the case in ME1 and ME2 as well, but it was presented in the form of meaningless dialogue choices (all three options saying the same thing). Regardless, it is one of the most criticized aspects of ME3, so I think they'll take that into account

[Cobwebmaster]

A good point Pierce Miller.  If the RPG element continues to decrease then  there will in essence be little to choose between Skyrim and ME. PC and NPC interaction has always been the big strength of Bioware Games, I had hoped that the mature interrelationships developed in BG2 would be improved in subsequent RPGs produced from  Bioware. Sadly this has not been the case with essentially degenerative dialogue. This makes the characters look shallow in my view with too many overlong diatribes from the pc. After all a  military officer is supposed to say as little as possible, being a man of action not words. The other thing in ME3 is that I am not sure who Shepard actually was - a Spectre or a military officer? No development occurred really in either role and as for Shepard giving the attack command to the galactic fleet- I thought that ridiculous as was the ending where only Shepard and Anderson ended up being beamed up alive and active

[Linkenski]

I feel like you're all understating the issue. The autodialogue isn't just a bit more than it used to be. It's the vast majority of Shepard's dialogue that we don't get to choose to the point where there are even entire scenes that can last for several minutes of back and forth conversation between Shepard and Hackett for example without even one single dialogue option for the player to choose.

 

I felt like in terms of genre Mass Effect 3 was in a bit of an identity crisis where Bioware couldn't make up their mind about whether they wanted to make an action game or a roleplaying game, and not just in the way ME2 had more straight-up action but in the sense that the times when the RPG mechanics, like interactive dialogue, were accessible was inconsistent and unpredictable, and it made it annoying to play the game because I was always ready for the dialogue wheel every time someone asked Shepard a question but I could never predict when I would be the one making the choice or Shepard himself.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I feel like you're all understating the issue. The autodialogue isn't just a bit more than it used to be. It's the vast majority of Shepard's dialogue that we don't get to choose to the point where there are even entire scenes that can last for several minutes of back and forth conversation between Shepard and Hackett for example without even one single dialogue option for the player to choose.

 

I felt like in terms of genre Mass Effect 3 was in a bit of an identity crisis where Bioware couldn't make up their mind about whether they wanted to make an action game or a roleplaying game, and not just in the way ME2 had more straight-up action but in the sense that the times when the RPG mechanics, like interactive dialogue, were accessible was inconsistent and unpredictable, and it made it annoying to play the game because I was always ready for the dialogue wheel every time someone asked Shepard a question but I could never predict when I would be the one making the choice or Shepard himself.

 

It also makes exposition scenes really boring. The dialogue in the games are not consistently good, so it hurts to have such long stretches of it where characters just drone on.

 

As for Shepard, I always felt like the later games suffered an identity crisis on what to do with Shepard himself. The character had always straddled the line between being a flexible avatar for the player to interact with the galaxy and existing as an actual character. Ultimately, this resulted in having worst of both worlds. Shepard doesn't really have any arc or depth to him (which results in awful fumbles like Duct Kid) and some really terrible railroads or lack of meaningful decision making.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Shepard's VI brain was malfunctioning when the reapers invaded and the image of the duct kid got burned into it. See Shepard's brain, while remarkably intact was dead and they probably needed to install a gray box of some sort in it to make the thing work and give it Shepard's memories. There's no way Shepard's brain could have survived that long in space or survived atmospheric entry, let alone a toxic atmosphere. Also think ice crystals on Alchera. It wasn't cold enough to prevent their formation during the day.

 

Nothing after the Collector ship attack is real. lol.

[Iakus]

Shepard's VI brain was malfunctioning when the reapers invaded and the image of the duct kid got burned into it. See Shepard's brain, while remarkably intact was dead and they probably needed to install a gray box of some sort in it to make the thing work and give it Shepard's memories. There's no way Shepard's brain could have survived that long in space or survived atmospheric entry, let alone a toxic atmosphere. Also think ice crystals on Alchera. It wasn't cold enough to prevent their formation during the day.

 

Nothing after the Collector ship attack is real. lol.

You don't understand.

 

"It's all a matter of resources"

 

See that explains everything

[SilJeff]

You have almost as much choice here as in 2 and 1, they just cut out the choices that give you the same exact dialogue regardless of which dialogue wheel option you pick. The game just lacks that illusion that 1 and 2 had

[Swan Killer]

I have no idea, why my ruthless lesbian Shepard (LIs were Kelly and Treynor) are flirting with Vega the whole time, "matching tattoos at a special place", "the bed is much harder than it looks"...etc... WTF?

 

What happened to shoving mercs out of windows, and "saying goodbye to Manuel" at the docks?

[BurningBlood]

In fairness, I've noticed that the auto-dialogue is sometimes different depending on whether Shepard is paragon or renegade; so while the game isn't letting you choose dialogue directly, it is basing the dialogue on choices you've made previously.  It doesn't always work, but most of the time it seemed fine to me.  In ME1, in contrast, Shepard couldn't open his/her mouth without the player's input, which led to some unnatural sounding and frankly jarring conversations due the impracticality of voice-acting a line that could be arrived at from multiple alternate lines, and lead into several different lines as well.  As Vazgen pointed out, it makes some sense that it should be that way - in ME1 the player is establishing their Shep's personality, while in ME3 the character is already well-developed.  Still, neither system worked perfectly, and I suspect there's a better middle-ground between the two approaches that hasn't yet been achieved.

[ImaginaryMatter]

In fairness, I've noticed that the auto-dialogue is sometimes different depending on whether Shepard is paragon or renegade; so while the game isn't letting you choose dialogue directly, it is basing the dialogue on choices you've made previously.  It doesn't always work, but most of the time it seemed fine to me.  In ME1, in contrast, Shepard couldn't open his/her mouth without the player's input, which led to some unnatural sounding and frankly jarring conversations due the impracticality of voice-acting a line that could be arrived at from multiple alternate lines, and lead into several different lines as well.  As Vazgen pointed out, it makes some sense that it should be that way - in ME1 the player is establishing their Shep's personality, while in ME3 the character is already well-developed.  Still, neither system worked perfectly, and I suspect there's a better middle-ground between the two approaches that hasn't yet been achieved.

 

Shepard isn't a well developed character in ME3 though. Previously, he was more of an extension for the character. He reacted to events but the reasoning, motives, and personality behind those decisions were largely up to the player (he never even comments on something as big as returning to life from death). Which is why I'm fine with him being an emotionless brick, it's easier to draw on a personality that way. The problem with ME3 is that the paradigm suddenly shifted which which means Shepard was a character who's character might not have aligned with the player. I'm not against either thinking for main character development, but I think you have to pick one or the other.

[Han Shot First]

As much as fans like to rail against autodialogue, I hope it is carried over into the next game. When it is executed properly it does help make scenes more cinematic, which is an improvement. I think the interaction between characters in ME3 is improved by leaps and bounds over ME1 in part because of it.

 

The trick is not in having the main character autodialogue anything that might potentially be at odds with previous dialogue choices. Having Shepard autodialogue determination to stop the Reapers for example, would be acceptable, as absolutely every version of Shepard should believe that. But you wouldn't want Shepard having autodialogue where he objects to the genophage, when it is conceivable at some versions of Shepard might support it.

[themikefest]

I have no idea, why my ruthless lesbian Shepard (LIs were Kelly and Treynor) are flirting with Vega the whole time, "matching tattoos at a special place", "the bed is much harder than it looks"...etc... WTF?

 

What happened to shoving mercs out of windows, and "saying goodbye to Manuel" at the docks?

Yep. I was playing femshep's stunt double in ME3. 

[JasonShepard]

It's worth bearing in mind that this was in ME2 as well. I'm thinking of the "No, forget the Alliance, you're with Cerberus now" railroading that we had to put up with at the start.

 

And a LOT of the dialogue, in all three games, is reactionary dialogue. ME3 just dropped it from "Peaceful/Neutral/Angry" reactions to just "Peaceful/Angry" reactions. (I'm pretty sure the neutral dialogue was used *much* less than the other two.)

 

So if we're just talking about choices... Has anyone done a count of 'important decisions' made in ME3 compared to ME2? And then compared it to the number of choices that get their 'pay-off' in ME3 compared to ME2?

[Isaidlunch]

The best I'm hoping for is a return to 3 dialogue options and auto-dialogue to be reduced and/or more neutral (like what Han Shot First mentioned above). I wonder how DAI's dialogue system would work in Mass Effect - probably wouldn't fit but it'd be interesting to see.

[Alamar2078]

In the earlier games I believe there was more of a desire to allow players to have at least the illusion of crafting their own story.  In the last episode I believe the dev's didn't care about us as much and wanted to tell the story they wanted thus the reduction in meaningful dialog choice.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The thing is that the illusion of the three choices really was closely tied to the paragon-renegade system. What was really funny about it was that about 80% of the time the middle choice was exactly the same as either the top or the bottom choice in wording and delivery, and in result.

 

For example in ME1, we had the choice of "Saving the Council," "Sacrificing the Council," or "Focusing on Sovereign."

 

From a paragon/renegade standpoint these were +34 paragon, +9 paragon/ +25 renegade, +34 renegade. The middle and focus choices ended up the same. Why the difference in paragon/renegade? Was it because Liara said "Yes, a sacrifice for the greater good." Was that it? What was someone who didn't think Asari could reproduce with their own species doing making that decision anyway? I always choose that line because Shepard is such a dumb ass.

 

So in ME3 they just got rid of that illusion.

[themikefest]

When I chose to focus on Sovereign, I got +9 paragon/ +9 renegade. Those were the only renegade points I got for that playthrough

[caradoc2000]

Yep. I was playing femshep's stunt double in ME3. 

The supposed clone is actually the real Shepard, and play as the clone - like Schwarzenegger in the 6th day.

[von uber]

The paragon / renegade meter is part of the problem due to the requirement to farm the points.
Me3 resolved that to an extent.

[BurningBlood]

I really liked the fact that there were "neutral" options in ME1 that had the same ultimate effect, but were chosen for different reasons.  Neutral for the Council is "I can't afford to risk not killing Sovereign, so the Council is on their own"; renegade was more "Screw those idiots, I wish I could kill them myself".  Neutral for the Rachni was "I really don't want genocide on my conscience", whereas paragon was "I can't wait to hear all the awesome songs you're going to sing about me, while your children frolic peacefully in the meadows and hillsides".  In a role-playing game that really does constitute a meaningful difference between those choices, despite the council dying / rachni living in either case.

[KaiserShep]

The thing is that the illusion of the three choices really was closely tied to the paragon-renegade system. What was really funny about it was that about 80% of the time the middle choice was exactly the same as either the top or the bottom choice in wording and delivery, and in result.

 

For example in ME1, we had the choice of "Saving the Council," "Sacrificing the Council," or "Focusing on Sovereign."

 

From a paragon/renegade standpoint these were +34 paragon, +9 paragon/ +25 renegade, +34 renegade. The middle and focus choices ended up the same. Why the difference in paragon/renegade? Was it because Liara said "Yes, a sacrifice for the greater good." Was that it? What was someone who didn't think Asari could reproduce with their own species doing making that decision anyway? I always choose that line because Shepard is such a dumb ass.

 

So in ME3 they just got rid of that illusion.

I do enjoy how that asari mating thing manages to make its way in there as often as possible.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I do enjoy how that asari mating thing manages to make its way in there as often as possible.

 

Ya, you don't actually have to choose that option. If Shepard says it, it's because the player chose it. I think the confusion is understandable, which is why the option is there like the rest of the options that have characters explain everything to Shepard i.e. the player.