96 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

No prior to the Act II nobody (friends/party members familiy, and people you helped and have no reason to tell anyone aside) knows of Hawke being a mage. 

Not true. Cullen has heard rumors. 

 

 

And if you try to refuse Meredits quest about huting down apostates in Act three she outrigt says that Hawke is still only free because she was lentinent with him/her and threthens her/him that she might have to lock her/him up if s/he isn't more cooperative. (At least she does with both siblings dead, otherwise she threatens the sibling instead.)

Which is exactly my point, but even disregarding that, during Act II, Hawke is a known mage to the Templars and has land. Carver backs this fact up if he's a Templar. There's really no debating this. 

[herkles]

question does hawke himself/herself own their estate or does the hawke family own the estate?

[Br3admax]

Hawke owns it, and s/he now represents the Amells in Kirkwall politics. 

[TeraBat]

One thing to keep in mind is that we're dealing with four separate legal systems - Fereldan, Orlais, The Free Marches (which is a collection of city-states all with their own customs) and the Circle itself. But as far as I can tell, there are no laws explicitly forbidding mages from owning property or holding titles. Just social custom, and the rules the Circle imposes. 

 

It's established that mages can leave the Circle with special permission from the First Enchanter, so it's possible that a mage could be granted leave to return home and take up their mantle of nobility. 

 

But the flip side: magic is viewed with suspicion and distrust by the common folk; so it's not likely that the people would be okay with being ruled by a mage. Especially because the Southern Chantry teaches that mages are not meant to rule. Having a mage noble would smack too much of Tevinter custom.

 

Lastly, it's highly unlikely that a mage noble would be able to continue their line. Magic has some element of heritability, and it's not likely that a noble family would consent to have magic added to their bloodline. Leandra, Hawke's mother, is disinherited when she marries a mage for just that reason, and is reduced to living like a peasant in Fereldan. So a mage noble is probably not going to be able to marry & have children; one of the main requirements of the nobility. It seems to me that most noble families, once the heir-apparent manifests magic, would rather just find a new heir (apostate lords aside). I imagine naming a mage a noble heir would be a last-resort option; if there was no one else who could possibly inherit. 

 

So, a mage could potentially be a noble, but a lot of things would have to fall into place for that to happen. 

[Br3admax]

Leandra wasn't disinherited. All her children received the same rights and privileges she did. Her family already is a mage bloodline anyway. That's probably the case with a lot of nobles, honestly. Especially if they have Tevinter roots. 

[TeraBat]

Leandra wasn't disinherited. All her children received the same rights and privileges she did. Her family already is a mage bloodline anyway. That's probably the case with a lot of nobles, honestly. Especially if they have Tevinter roots. 

 

Not necessarily. I mean, her parents didn't officially cut her off the family tree. But Leandra will tell Hawke that her parents were very upset that she wanted to marry a mage, because it meant adding more magic to the family bloodlines. At the time, she had to choose between retaining her privileges as nobility or giving it up to elope. Her parents did eventually come round, but it took several years. 

[Sifr]

Not true. Cullen has heard rumors. 

Which is exactly my point, but even disregarding that, during Act II, Hawke is a known mage to the Templars and has land. Carver backs this fact up if he's a Templar. There's really no debating this. 

 

No-one knows that Hawke is a mage until the end of Act 2, they merely have suspicions at that point that they can't prove.

 

Templar!Carver is only seen in Act 2 after you've run into Meredith and have already been outed, so it's not like Hawke's pretending anymore. Meredith even mentions that Carver has never mentioned having a sibling at all, so he's not been blabbing it around the Gallows.

 

My suspicion is that part of the reason Meredith lets Hawke remain free in Act 3 is because of the PR disaster that would befall her for imprisoning the person who saved the city from the Qunari, especially from the grateful nobles.

[Goldarmy]

No-one knows that Hawke is a mage until the end of Act 2, they merely have suspicions at that point that they can't prove.

 

Templar!Carver is only seen in Act 2 after you've run into Meredith and have already been outed, so it's not like Hawke's pretending anymore. Meredith even mentions that Carver has never mentioned having a sibling at all, so he's not been blabbing it around the Gallows.

 

My suspicion is that part of the reason Meredith lets Hawke remain free in Act 3 is because of the PR disaster that would befall her for imprisoning the person who saved the city from the Qunari, especially from the grateful nobles.

Also by this time the nobles are probably fed up with Meredith and Templar rule.

[Br3admax]

No-one knows that Hawke is a mage until the end of Act 2, they merely have suspicions at that point that they can't prove.

Again, Carver says the Templars knows Hawke is a mage. 

 

Templar!Carver is only seen in Act 2 after you've run into Meredith and have already been outed, so it's not like Hawke's pretending anymore. Meredith even mentions that Carver has never mentioned having a sibling at all, so he's not been blabbing it around the Gallows.

Nope. Carver shows up in two dlcs that can be played right out of Lothering. That includes before Act II ends and well before you meet Meridith.  

 

 

 

My suspicion is that part of the reason Meredith lets Hawke remain free in Act 3 is because of the PR disaster that would befall her for imprisoning the person who saved the city from the Qunari, especially from the grateful nobles.

Meredith letting Hawke remain for whatever reason is inconsequential to the point being made. 

 

Also by this time the nobles are probably fed up with Meredith and Templar rule.

 

Only if Hawke doesn't support them. They're Pro-Champion more than anything. 

[fhs33721]

Meredith letting Hawke remain for whatever reason is inconsequential to the point being made. 

 

What exactly is the point? The question was if mages generally can own titles or land legally. The answer is no, excpet if you are plot-armor protected protagonist mage that gets special priviliges by the templars after pulling of feats that are almost impossible to recreate for any other mage.

 

All other mages never got to keep any titles as soon as they joined the circle. Bethany gets outright locked away and surely isn't allowed to just hang out in her family estate. Isolde hires Jowan because it is outright stated that Connor would loose all rights to inherit Redcliffe and unsurprisingly Teagon takes over after Eamon, even if Connor lives.

[errantknight]

That still leaves the question of rank are you still a noble even if you are mage?

You are of noble birth, but that wouldn't actually mean much. Fear of mages trumps blue blood. You wouldn't be able to administer estates, generally speaking. Celene seems to wave the rules in Orlais for those she finds useful, but that shouldn't be taken as the norm. Conner certainly left the line of succession when he was known to be a mage and I expect the same would have happened in the free marches. I suspect it would have in Nevarra as well. Not sure about Antiva, but I suspect so.

[Br3admax]

What exactly is the point? The question was if mages generally can own titles or land legally. The answer is no, excpet if you are plot-armor protected protagonist mage that gets special priviliges by the templars after pulling of feats that are almost impossible to recreate for any other mage.

The question is can you. The answer is yes. 

 

All other mages never got to keep any titles as soon as they joined the circle. Bethany gets outright locked away and surely isn't allowed to just hang out in her family estate. Isolde hires Jowan because it is outright stated that Connor would loose all rights to inherit Redcliffe and unsurprisingly Teagon takes over after Eamon, even if Connor lives.

 

Being a part of the Circle takes away titles. If your parents keep you out of the Circle, and they can if they care enough and the Templars are sedate enough, you can keep all associated rights and privileges. 

[helpthisguyplease]

You are of noble birth, but that wouldn't actually mean much. Fear of mages trumps blue blood. You wouldn't be able to administer estates, generally speaking. Celene seems to wave the rules in Orlais for those she finds useful, but that shouldn't be taken as the norm. Conner certainly left the line of succession when he was known to be a mage and I expect the same would have happened in the free marches. I suspect it would have in Nevarra as well. Not sure about Antiva, but I suspect so.

Actually in Nevarra is not true as Cassandra was raised by her uncle who was a mage and it seemed he had a title and land since he raised her and her brother.

[herkles]

Actually in Nevarra is not true as Cassandra was raised by her uncle who was a mage and it seemed he had a title and land since he raised her and her brother.

her uncle is a mortalitasi, NOT a cirlce mage, they have their own rules and traditions, Not to mention they have a lot of influence and power in Nevarra.

[TeraBat]

I think there's also an important question. 

 

Does being a noble mage entitle you to be treated with respect and deference due someone of your birth? Yes, generally. A noble mage is probably going to have an easier time than a common mage. Money and powerful relatives make everything easier, after all, no matter who you are. 

 

Does being a noble mage entitle you to rule your estate as the patriarch/matriarch of your family? Nope. For a myriad of reasons, the social structure of Southern Thedas discourages mages from ruling, inheriting and bequeathing noble lands. 

[dragonflight288]

 

So when you are born a mage to a noble and are taken to the circle do you lose you noble rank and/or your inheritence?

 

Yup. 

 

Connor loses all right to inherit a title in Redcliff when he's discovered as a mage. 

[helpthisguyplease]

I think there's also an important question. 

 

Does being a noble mage entitle you to be treated with respect and deference due someone of your birth? Yes, generally. A noble mage is probably going to have an easier time than a common mage. Money and powerful relatives make everything easier, after all, no matter who you are. 

 

Does being a noble mage entitle you to rule your estate as the patriarch/matriarch of your family? Nope. For a myriad of reasons, the social structure of Southern Thedas discourages mages from ruling, inheriting and bequeathing noble lands. 

Actually another thing came to mind. If you as a noble mage have a child with another mage or a templar or a random somebody, can your child if he is born and he is not a mage can he inherit your noble rank and the inheritance that skips to him.

[fhs33721]

The question is can you. The answer is yes. 

 

No, the question literally was:

 

So when you are born a mage to a noble and are taken to the circle do you lose you noble rank and/or your inheritence?

Though the answer to that question is actually yes. As in yes you lose all titles and inheritance.
So no, circle mages are indeed not allowed to own land or titles.

[Han Shot First]

Mages of noble birth aren't really nobles in Southern Thedas, as they don't inherit titles or fiefdoms. They are basically comparable to bastards that haven't been legitimized. They might garner more respect and better treatment due to their lineage and family connections, but once they get shipped off to a Circle they are no longer part of the aristocracy.

[Ryzaki]

Mages of noble birth aren't really nobles in Southern Thedas, as they don't inherit titles or fiefdoms. They are basically comparable to bastards that haven't been legitimized. They might garner more respect and better treatment due to their lineage and family connections, but once they get shipped off to a Circle they are no longer part of the aristocracy.

 

There's not really a might about it. Jospehine straight up states that noble mages are treated differently than the rest.

[fhs33721]

There's not really a might about it. Jospehine straight up states that noble mages are treated differently than the rest.

Probably because influential nobles are probably going to be upset (rightly so) if their favourite mage son/daugther starves because someone forgot them in the dungeons and unlike the broad populace nobles can actually cause trouble for the templars. After all even Meredith herself had to apologize when the templars affronted Gascard DuPuis.

[Willowhugger]

yes, but they can't outright own lands and titles

 

They also can't have or raise children, which kind of defeats the purpose.

I wonder why more mages don't bring this up in their complaints.

[Willowhugger]

I'm kind of confused as to why Mage Hawke being Viscount is something Gaider is down on.

If EVER there was extenuating circumstances.

It would be that.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

They also can't have or raise children, which kind of defeats the purpose.

I wonder why more mages don't bring this up in their complaints.

They can have children. They're not encouraged to do so but they aren't forced to abort. They're just not allowed to raise them. (Probably because while too many mage children will overwhelm the Chantry logistically, too few will let all of the threats serious enough that the Circle will let the mages at them overwhelm the Chantry militarily.)

[helpthisguyplease]

So your noble rank can not be taken but is it inheritable by your non mage child if you have one.