47 réponses à ce sujet

[TMA LIVE]

Dragon Age Inquisition was suppose to be the game that was going to make or break Bioware after what happened with DA2 and ME3. As a game developer, I thought it did give me some trust that they'll keep making good games. But I never really lost that. ME3 and DA2 were still good games, and besides Sonic: Brotherhood the Dark Chronicles, they never really made a bad game. And as character writers, they're still one of the best in the business. But when it comes to the main story and how their sequels connect, they're continuing to go downhill. A lot of people blame Mac Walters for what happened to ME3 and it's main story being filled with half baked ideas that seemed to have been thrown in last minute, or that EA rushed them out the door. But now we have another writing team pretty much doing even worse when it comes to the main story, and they had more then 3 years. It seems Bioware in general treats the main plot as something to leave undeveloped for whatever the reason. And whatever that reason is, they need to fix that. Because when they had all this time, and the main story is the way it is, there really isn't an excuse for it. You can't be given all that time, and still be considered rushed. Something is clearly causing a problem.

[Br3admax]

Problem implies they were trying to please you. This may come as a surprise, but that wasn't the case. Any rational company would give up trying to meet the standards of their "fans" a long time ago. They were trying to sell copies of this game, a goal they very much have and still are accomplishing. They get positive review and people like the game, more than the people who hate it anyway, they succeeded. The plot was deemed acceptable, and that's all that really matters. Trying to write the game you want would be a losing battle, especially since you yourself hardly represent anyone other than you yourself. 

[TMA LIVE]

It's not about a standard of fans. It's standards in general. When you introduce a bad guy, and do nothing with him, that's undeveloped writing in general. When you introduce a bunch of storylines, have them barely connect, and don't give them a proper conclusion or setup, that's undeveloped writing in general. When you bring in characters out of left field, and then discard them just as fast, that's undeveloped writing. And it's not the fault of one specific writer. It seems to be the fault of whatever process they have at Bioware currently.

[Efvie]

Problem implies they were trying to please you. This may come as a surprise, but that wasn't the case. Any rational company would give up trying to meet the standards of their "fans" a long time ago. They were trying to sell copies of this game, a goal they very much have and still are accomplishing. They get positive review and people like the game, more than the people who hate it anyway, they succeeded. The plot was deemed acceptable, and that's all that really matters. Trying to write the game you want would be a losing battle, especially since you yourself hardly represent anyone other than you yourself. 

 

That’s such a vacuous, BS rationalization that I’m not sure why you even bother posting it.

 

I’d personally like to believe that creative professionals work at BioWare. Both of those words imply an interest in their craft beyond making a buck. YMMV.

[TMA LIVE]

I’d personally like to believe that creative professionals work at BioWare. Both of those words imply an interest in their craft beyond making a buck. YMMV.

I agree. I do like to believe the writers are Bioware are doing it more then just for the buck. It's why I believe there's clearly something going wrong when it comes to their process of developing the main storylines for their current video games.

[Sprenk]

TMA Live, it's hard to know what problems with the plot you're talking about when you give no specific examples. For example, which character struck you as coming "out of left field"?

 

Personally, I found the plot to be very engaging.

 

P.S. It also undercuts your credibility just a tad when your thread title . . . oh, never mind! I've kicked enough puppies already today.

[TMA LIVE]

TMA Live, it's hard to know what problems with the plot you're talking about when you give no specific examples. For example, which character struck you as coming "out of left field"?

 

 

One example I'd give is Flemeth. Say you never played DA:O or DA2. She's pretty much a new character that comes at the very end, given a brief introduction and setup, and then is gone.

 

Keep in mind, I'm not just talking about just DA:I. I'm also including ME3, DA2, ME2, etc.

[b10d1v]

Being critical is not vicious by itself and I certainly do not see that here.  This is a constructive criticism of DAI from an industry professional that the story lines were not well done or connected and opinion shared by many.  I also question how a story teller gets so lost, it was not for lack of material.

[herkles]

One example I'd give is Flemeth. Say you never played DA:O or DA2. She's pretty much a new character that comes at the very end, given a brief introduction and setup, and then is gone.

As much as I love inquistion and I do. This is an issue, if you are not familar with the lore and the nods back to past games, it can be rather confusing. 

 

My other issue is that they could have easily tied the main plot into each area and set up along side the storylines already there and thus the game would be longer and the pacing issues would be gone.  for instance if the exalted march and the emerald graves, plus some stopping in Val Royaux was part of the civil war plot with the cap stone being the ball misision I think things would be much better IMO.

 

side note: the lore-confusion is why I am strongly in favor of origins if we go to tevinter in da4; because to someone who is new to the series the origins are a great way IMO to introudce one quickly to the setting and world. 

[Grieving Natashina]

Well, I gotta admit, I can't argue with the OP when it comes to continuity lock out.  I could imagine it being hard to keep track of what's going on.  Sure, there is the codex, but a lot of the situtations and the characters expect the player to know exactly what's up.  And things like Flemeth do seem completely out of left field.  I could imagine the impression Flemeth leaving a new player (or one that might have played Origins only once or twice back in the day) being something like this:

 

Spoiler

"Okay, I can tell that this is supposed to be a big deal.  Morrigan looks terrified and the nature of the reveal looks all dramatic.  Who the hell is she?  Okay, she's this elven goddess or whatever, but she acts like she's been around before?  <watches credits>  And now she's dead, and giving her spirit essence to Solas.  Who's another elven god.  Wait, what the hell just happened?

[b10d1v]

I have never found Bioware to lack creativity and found the drive to push the envelope in character development for DAI quite refreshing -there is a confluence of technology to make a big leap forward and Bioware could do this.  There was also a learning curve associated with the new technology and that has to be factored as an impact on scheduling along with other risks.

[b10d1v]

Having experience in program and process management - I have felt something is missing in process analysis for quite some time now, there are grumblings that EA is the problem, etc. -human nature is to pass blame. That is why you establish a process and implement process improvement -helps account for human fallibility. This summer tempers flared over seemingly minor issues that did not endure confidence of a smooth schedule, nor a PR stunt. Later the IP rights issues over DLC -another bad sign.  I know it may not appear to directly address your writing issue, but it may explain why there is a problem.

 

If you take a look at the writing staff for mass effect 3 there was a similar problem.

[Br3admax]

That’s such a vacuous, BS rationalization that I’m not sure why you even bother posting it.

 

I’d personally like to believe that creative professionals work at BioWare. Both of those words imply an interest in their craft beyond making a buck. YMMV.

Which has nothing to do with what I said. Calling the game a failure when it hasn't failed to accomplish it's goal is fallacy. The fact that it doesn't stand up to one's personal expectations does not make anything a failure. 

[Kantr]

DA:i is lore heavy unfirednly to newcomers.

 

That doesnt make Flemeth a left field character though

[Aulis Vaara]

Which has nothing to do with what I said. Calling the game a failure when it hasn't failed to accomplish it's goal is fallacy. The fact that it doesn't stand up to one's personal expectations does not make anything a failure.

So, you're saying that if something or someone fails to attain certain goals it's not a failure? Sure, the failure may one be in the eyes of a single individual and his expectation, but it's still a failure for that individual.

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

There certainly are weaknesses in Inquisition's main storyline, although I'd hardly call the plot a 'failure' - The Elder One feels underdeveloped as a villain, and we see very little of him and his inner circle - I'd have preferred multiple encounters with Samson/Calpurnia to actually get a handle on their characters, and the Orlesian Civil War feels underused - we see very little actual conflict and the whole resolution feels like it happens incidentally to the player's actions, especially in relation to the Mage/Templar War.

 

That being said, this is partly due to Inquisition's structure - We're kept locked tight to the Inquisitor's perspective, which is a departure from Origins and the first Mass Effect, which have a largely nonlinear structure similar to Inquisition. It's probably also partly due to needing to put incidental/emergent storyline in all of the areas.

 

Inquisition has far better environmental storytelling than any previous BioWare game - the Still Ruins are really goddamn cool, and I'd contend it's the coolest section in a BW game since fighting up the side of the Citadel tower. The Character storylines are as strong as ever, and I think the focus on side-story is emblematic of Inquisition; unlike DA2 it's not focussed on the central storyline as much, which leads to a weaker main story but a much larger body of smaller narratives. 

[Gadarr]

There certainly are weaknesses in Inquisition's main storyline, although I'd hardly call the plot a 'failure' - The Elder One feels underdeveloped as a villain, and we see very little of him and his inner circle - I'd have preferred multiple encounters with Samson/Calpurnia to actually get a handle on their characters, and the Orlesian Civil War feels underused - we see very little actual conflict and the whole resolution feels like it happens incidentally to the player's actions, especially in relation to the Mage/Templar War.

 

The Elder One is more than just underdeveloped. If it was just that, there wouldn't really be a problem. It's not like the Archdemon/Dark Spawn had any personality at all, apart from being just evil and yet, DA:O is praised as the epitome of rpgs. No, far worse than the lack of screentime Corypheus gets is his overwhelming incompetence. After Haven, all he ever does is fail. And fail. And fail again. After the Well of Sorrows especially, there isn't even any redeeming quality to his failure. He looks like an utter fool. Which isn't really a very good way to sell a thousand year old magister who is supposedly immensly powerful and intelligent, even if insane. No, he's cleary neither.

 

That said, I wouldn't call the plot a 'failure' either. It's not anything to be particularly proud of though and after the events in Haven easily the weakest part of the whole game. The plot itself, not the way it's staged, which is great - apart maybe from the finale. I loved every single storyline mission (and certainly will again when I get around to a second playthrough), but looking back, it's hard not to see the faults.

[Dubya75]

My opinion is that Bioware wastes too much story and plot material on novels and anime movies and all kinds of marketing fluff. I know I will probably get the stink eye from some people for saying so, but last time I checked, the Dragon Age franchise was a gaming franchise. Instead of Mr Gaider or whoever else spending so much effort on books and stuff, if they could purely focus on story and plot content for GAMES, we may get something much richer and enjoyable. Something truly epic.

[TMA LIVE]

Keep in mind, I'm more of criticizing Bioware's plot writing since ME2. ME2 I consider the best Bioware game I ever played (though I have yet to play the Balder's Gate games, so who knows, maybe those might change my opinion). But majority of fans agree ME1 had a better plot. Some even claim ME2 doesn't have a plot at all. It was just a simple setup that gave you an excuse to recruit and explore the galaxy. And though it was still an amazing game, it didn't change the fact that Harb was a bad guy that had no buildup or development. It didn't change the fact that he was just a "thing" to fight, who's dialogue was just taunts. Though the characters were well written, it didn't change the fact that they have barely any connection to the plot beyond hired guns, and their stories were separate from everyone else's story, like they existed on separate islands. And it didn't change the fact that lore was constantly being changed and retconned, like how the Mass Relays could survive a supernova, and yet a giant rock could take one out in a DLC. And last, it didn't change the fact that ME2's main story had almost nothing to do with the main story of ME1 and ME3, which is stopping the Reapers from coming. You were instead saving random colonist from drones of the Reapers, which again, was underdeveloped. You weren't really given much reason to care about the faceless colonies. You died and came back, and yet no one seems to care beyond "It's great that your back!". You find a dead Reaper, which is a pretty big thing to find, only for it to be destroyed like it meant nothing just as fast. There was all kinds of stuff like that.

 

Then you got DA2, which was a game that was very different from Origins, and had a very forced narrative. Yet that same narrative was underdeveloped. You had a framed narrative, that didn't really matter. It was there mostly for just an interesting intro, and nothing more. You get a family, but yet they seem to take them away from you just as fast. They were telling a story that was 7 or 10 years long, and yet Kirkwall and it's characters pretty much remained the same beyond minor differences. The story could have been told in 3 years instead of 7, and not really change anything. It also felt weird how a storyline took 2 or 3 years to move to it's next step for every single character, including with Hawke, and thus felt disjointed. You become the Champion, and yet it doesn't mean anything beyond a title. You could play a mage, and run around a town run by Temps, and yet majority of them seem to never notice you or your other fellow mages, or care. The plot itself felt more like a GTA plot, where you're just doing random missions for people just because "I'm a dude who likes doing side quests for random strangers". And it forced plot devices to make characters do insane things. Anders blows up a church and starts a war. Why? Because he's crazy and wants people to start killing each other. Why does Orsino become a blob monster? Because he gives up last minute, and thinks turning into a blob monster that attacks you is better. Why does Meredith want to kill every mage in Kirkwall, despite me killing Anders, the dude that blew up a Church? Because she's crazy from getting her hands on a red lightsaber from hell. DA2 also had it's own retcons, like bringing Leli back, despite killing her in DA:O.

 

I'll continue with my thoughts on how ME3 and DA:I bad or underdeveloped main storyline telling later when I get more time.

[TMA LIVE]

Double post.

[Nerevar-as]

I agree. I do like to believe the writers are Bioware are doing it more then just for the buck. It's why I believe there's clearly something going wrong when it comes to their process of developing the main storylines for their current video games.

I don´t. Things look more and more like going through the motions in several points of writing, such as main plot and questing. Sad, because in the small scale moments you can see the talent, but the sum is far less than the total of separate parts.

[Sartoz]

Dragon Age Inquisition was suppose to be the game that was going to make or break Bioware after what happened with DA2 and ME3. As a game developer, I thought it did give me some trust that they'll keep making good games. But I never really lost that. ME3 and DA2 were still good games, and besides Sonic: Brotherhood the Dark Chronicles, they never really made a bad game. And as character writers, they're still one of the best in the business. But when it comes to the main story and how their sequels connect, they're continuing to go downhill. A lot of people blame Mac Walters for what happened to ME3 and it's main story being filled with half baked ideas that seemed to have been thrown in last minute, or that EA rushed them out the door. But now we have another writing team pretty much doing even worse when it comes to the main story, and they had more then 3 years. It seems Bioware in general treats the main plot as something to leave undeveloped for whatever the reason. And whatever that reason is, they need to fix that. Because when they had all this time, and the main story is the way it is, there really isn't an excuse for it. You can't be given all that time, and still be considered rushed. Something is clearly causing a problem.

Great wall of text with lots of generalities thrown in. Somehow, I can't quite latch on to a specific complaint.

 

Perhaps you can elaborate?

[Calders]

Have to agree with most of this.. I liked the main plot missions in DAI but the actual plot is poor.

 

By the time you get to the final battle you already feel like you have won and its just a cleaning up exercise.  DAI avoids the tried and tested route of the game being about building up your strength so you have a chance in the final and instead you seem to be continuously winning after the Haven attack.  I think the plot was OK until you left Haven, even if companions were dropped on you a little too quickly.  I also think there are too many companions / advisers which reduces your bond with them (I thought this was true with ME2 as well)

 

Bring characters back from the dead is the kind of story writing we laugh at in soap opera's and pretty unforgivable in a game where there isn't even the excuse of the popular actor.  Also there is no reason DA games should trample on our previous choice, surely the whole point of not doing a series with the same protagonist is so these kind of conflicts can be avoided more easily.

Of course the biggest problem with the story is that its missing from most of the game.... you spend well over half your time running around doing 'things' that seem to have no attachment to the story at all.  It almost feels like they built a Skyrim style game and then tried to drop a story on top of it, rather than writing the story first and building the game around it.

 

Ironically the epilogue had a lot of potential for a good plot but instead it was just kind of dropped on you at the end of the game.

[Aurok]

Said this in another thread, but they badly need Obsidian's writers (or someone similarly capable).

 

Bioware's current MO for storytelling --and this is especially egregious in Inquisition-- seems to be to make every other faction in the world apart from the player's faction incredibly stupid and/or pantomime villains. Making everyone else --Rebel Mages, Templars, Orlesian Empire and especially the Grey Wardens-- so comically inept just undermines the entire setting. All of these factions are now a joke and the Inquisition ends up feeling like a babysitting service.

 

For a series which started out inspired by the ASoIaF books, Dragon Age now feels about as far from that tonally as it can get. Inquisition is half comic book, half village panto.

[b10d1v]

ME2 was my first introduction to the franchise with a rich storyline and great animation -it was well done. I was so impressed that I soon got ME1 to see how the behaviors, personalities would change and it was also quite good, if not aged.  However, my problems with ME3 started before it was launched (supported the Dark energy plot and none of the suicide), still it played ok and turns out I could find people with similar issues and mod it -so all is good.  

 

DAO was also built on this progressive behavior model and it seemed to work well in ME, but then DA2 -What?  Ok, a stepping stone release exploring different methods of storytelling to lead into DA:I -small game and easily modifiable no problem.  So DA:I no problem with the delay they has a risky schedule from the start, but even the day of launch Character developers are still posing questions?  It poses a serious division of labor issue, and a clue why the story is so disjointed at points.