23 réponses à ce sujet

[JBenny5781]

So far this game has been unbelievably fun. Now I'm at my first dragon and scratching my head as to why the AI is so stupid. I give a hold command, the member moves there for a bit, then next thing you know they're in the middle of the fight. They run right through fire spots, or even just hang out in them burning away. They get stuck on rocks and can't move. They're right next to the dragon but not fighting. Is this the "tactics" that are designed? I've even seen the dragon sit in a ledge, spit a fireball to the ground, then my warrior runs right into the middle of the Flames, even though I have him in a hold command. Wth?

Then the God awful speed you run when engaged. What's the point of playing a fast rogue if you run like you're in molasses? When the dragon jumps all the way across the field, it seems like it takes forever to get to it. So I thought disengage might work here, but that has a big drawback because the party members that were actually fighting, stop until you get there and start swinging.

Why isn't there a "follow" command? If I want to run the party away from the fight, there is no way to. Disengage doesn't always work, or does for a short moment and they run back into danger.

[Greenlettertam]

I agree, the game is incredible, however, the mages and rogues think they're warriors. I usually scream at the game like my football team is losing, "VIV STAY BACK!". Sometimes the party does stand in the middle of a dragon fight and doesn't evade Dragon Attacks when it takes off and applies its weapon attack. This is something that's not isolated to dragons, it's common. I think if Bioware added some more options in the tactics menu under character record, that would solve the issues most people are having. Like class X should stay put, and the party member should attack from a distance or hold position and defend. stuff like that. All I know is, I'm playing on hard and nightmare difficulty is going to be interesting.  Thanks for posting this starting this thread, I hope Bioware is reading this, and they start hiring more game tester because it would save them time and money in the long run.

 

As far as a fast rogue. There are masterworks that actually have a special effect that allows the rogue to go into stealth and speed up their movement, it's great in a fight. There's also stealth+ breaks certain spells and allows the rogue to move through enemies snd threats. That talent is a lifesaver when Sera (or a Rogue) is in a fight and she needs to get away FAST.

 

Thanks again for bringing this up, it's a serious flaw that makes Dragon Age Inquisition a "hot mess".

[nightla]

I agree completely, AI behaviour is, um, odd sometimes. It is quite bearable in the most of fights, but you really feel it with more complicated enemies like dragons.

 

In addition to "Viv stay BACK" and "Jeez why did you have to run through the fire??" I also often want to scream (probably after playing WoW) "Cass, all good tanks face enemies AWAY from the party!"

Playing an archer on nightmare, I find it almost impossible to flank the enemies because they are changing their position all the time. I already have to stand far away (Long Shot) + on higher ground (Death From Above), and it may take considerable time to get to flanking position (especially if you do not have Strafing Shots passive yet), and when I'm finally there - my warrior turns them to face me again. Sometimes I feel like she does it on purpose

 

I also sometimes initiate the fight and go into stealth, not willing to get tons of damage in my face. And what do my party (warrior included) do? Stand still staring at the mobs attacking them until I un-stealth.

 

I'd also LOVE to be able to set up party tactics like it was in DA2 instead of enabled/disabled/preferred abilities they made in DAI. I could make a very flexible setup that suited my playstyle the best (and DA2 had tactics presets for those unwilling to set it up manually) - instead I'm left at the mercy of not-so-intelligent AI now. Sigh.

[AlexMBrennan]

Tactics menu is simply misnamed - it says "use powers when appropriate" when it's clearly meant to say "use powers when it will annoy the player the most" (e.g. Cassandra spamming the hook ability... on a dragon... which is immune to pull, obviously). If Bioware made FPS games, they'd probably have the bots shoot the wall 5m to the left of your character

[b10d1v]

JBenny glad you like it.

My view is less optimistic with DAI's dysfunctional past and helping folks to get it working for well over a week.  The frostbite graphics can be so realistic as to hide many issues. However, Bioware seems proactive to fix issues and that is a good thing.

 

The behavior models need an overhaul -there are no conditional controls, hence they make "stupid" decisions.  

My Skyrim is heavily modded, but the models run smooth as silk and even though Skyrim had largely independent companion mods and characters you could love to play with and still have equivalent team dynamics better than DA:I.  Also several models to choose from - including crouch and stealth and a wide variety of idle behaviors and activities.  DAO and DA2 have smoother behavior models, no jerky behavior knocking you off scaffolding, and the NPCs did what you told them. Conclusion: DA:I behavior idles is either nonfunctional or non existent -might explain the ~3 second wait -can't find the model.  I could hazard a guess that is also the source of "RUN only" -an incomplete model.  Although the the array of hardware scanning issues could also cause similar behavior issues, just not sending the key press.  

 

Bioware admits that using the tactical system is better with a controller -like to try that, but DA:I can't locate mine!  Without a controller the tactics system is problemattic at best - never use it!

 

Even though Bioware is onboard trying to address the issues there remain plenty of open issues, but it is a bit easier to be optimistic.

[Razir-Samus]

easier using the tactical system with a controller because it was designed for consoles first and foremost... the entire game was

 

us PC users just got a terrible port, the gameplay itself is mediocre when compared to the previous titles, what bigs it up however is the flashy combat and general sheen of the landscape

 

the game itself is riddled with technical and mechanical flaws that some people are quite happy to ignore for some bizarre reason

[JBenny5781]

I'm playing on XB1, so some of the PC comments for mods can't apply.  This is probably more of an AI behavior issue than a "tactic" issue.  I have gone into the CD/Tactic menu and disabled a few of the skills that I do not want the party members using, and set "preferred" skills that I know the dragon is weak to.

 

That chain spam my warriors use is definitely one thing I disable sometimes.  I typically use 2 warriors and in a non-dragon fighting situation that skill gets pretty annoying when 2 warriors keep pulling the enemy across the battlefield like a yo-yo.

 

I do try to use the tactical view a lot to move the party members where I want them and "hold" them in certain location attempting to move the around the field to what I would hope to be good, semi guarded locations for the ranged characters.  But when the just hang out in fire patches, or even move into fire patches, that's just plain stupid AI behavior and ends up losing the fight for me since I have to spam potions just to keep them alive.  How fast the dragon moves compared to how slow you (or party) moves when engaged is god awful and a huge frustration, especially when you get stuck so often on rocks, branches or between the dragons legs.

 

There need to be a way to disengage the fight (with the controlled character) while the other party continues to engage.  Like in the example I provided earlier, when the dragon leaps across the battlefield.  I'll have some party members close enough where they can continue to fight, yet I have to disengage just to get over there quicker.  But when you disengage, the party stops fighting.  Another really stupid feature to the AI.  For my rogue, I can cloak which removes the slowness, but that skill has a cooldown and isn't always available when you need it.

 

This game has been absolutely amazing up to this point, with only a few minor annoyances from the AI behavior.  But in a major fight, these minor annoyances have become major ones when you have to spam potions to keep party members alive, when they prefer hanging out in fire patches vs actually moving out of them.  There needs to be some sort of "recognition" in the AI to keep them from running through hazards.  What's the point of a tactical camera and tactical battlefield controls, if the AI cannot even recognize a battlefield hazard?

[Sartoz]

I'm playing on XB1, so some of the PC comments for mods can't apply.  This is probably more of an AI behavior issue than a "tactic" issue.  I have gone into the CD/Tactic menu and disabled a few of the skills that I do not want the party members using, and set "preferred" skills that I know the dragon is weak to.

 

That chain spam my warriors use is definitely one thing I disable sometimes.  I typically use 2 warriors and in a non-dragon fighting situation that skill gets pretty annoying when 2 warriors keep pulling the enemy across the battlefield like a yo-yo.

 

I do try to use the tactical view a lot to move the party members where I want them and "hold" them in certain location attempting to move the around the field to what I would hope to be good, semi guarded locations for the ranged characters.  But when the just hang out in fire patches, or even move into fire patches, that's just plain stupid AI behavior and ends up losing the fight for me since I have to spam potions just to keep them alive.  How fast the dragon moves compared to how slow you (or party) moves when engaged is god awful and a huge frustration, especially when you get stuck so often on rocks, branches or between the dragons legs.

 

There need to be a way to disengage the fight (with the controlled character) while the other party continues to engage.  Like in the example I provided earlier, when the dragon leaps across the battlefield.  I'll have some party members close enough where they can continue to fight, yet I have to disengage just to get over there quicker.  But when you disengage, the party stops fighting.  Another really stupid feature to the AI.  For my rogue, I can cloak which removes the slowness, but that skill has a cooldown and isn't always available when you need it.

 

This game has been absolutely amazing up to this point, with only a few minor annoyances from the AI behavior.  But in a major fight, these minor annoyances have become major ones when you have to spam potions to keep party members alive, when they prefer hanging out in fire patches vs actually moving out of them.  There needs to be some sort of "recognition" in the AI to keep them from running through hazards.  What's the point of a tactical camera and tactical battlefield controls, if the AI cannot even recognize a battlefield hazard?

Basically you are confirming that we must fight the battle and the AI, at the same time.

 

A workaround for this is to use the Cheat Engine's tac-cam zoom override feature. Zoom out to a satisfactory height for you, then move the camera around until your satisfied and do the generalissimo from there. Unfortunately, success comes from:

1. Pause,  look and analyze the situation

2. give movement orders followed by attack commands.

3. unpause for two seconds to allow the commands to execute, then repeat until the end.

 

Personally I use Tactics and Behaviours menu using action RPG play.

[I saved Star Wars :D]

The tactics system isn't as good as previous titles, we all know that. However everything I've read here (except the stuff about missing models?) has either a solution or a way of dramatically improving the issue using the settings available to us.

Sadly, the info from BW is pretty crap, but the combat forum and reddit have threads which could really help you get more out of the AI.

[JBenny5781]

I've never used Reddit.  Could you please provide a link for me to good forum on this topic?  I liked the detailed tactics in DA:O a lot better than these current tactics.

[teks]

Then the God awful speed you run when engaged. What's the point of playing a fast rogue if you run like you're in molasses? When the dragon jumps all the way across the field, it seems like it takes forever to get to it. So I thought disengage might work here, but that has a big drawback because the party members that were actually fighting, stop until you get there and start swinging.

 

 

Get evade.

Before you clicked you were 10-15 meters away cursing your bulky legs, after you clicked your at his flank making picasso on his spine with your daggers.

[mfmaxpower]

The negative effect on combat the AI has is the only reason this isn't game of the year for me.

[BeyondTheStars]

Dragon Age Origins had a mod, called "Advanced Tactics" (not sure if that's the exact name), where the AI could be instructed with IF > THEN commands (as in do this or that in certain, explicitly specified conditions). Even that mod wasn't perfect - had to adjust many times, until I had a setup for each of them that I liked. Was still not perfect, but as close as possible, to fit the style of play of each of us.

 

Now this game... It's zero, nothing, even worse - just consider companions as meat shields or similar, and don't expect more, or you end up upset, and that's not fun. As micromanaging in "tactical camera mode"...have fun with that. I heard about a game named "Dragon's Dogma" with a learning AI that worked a bit better, not sure though, it's a console only thing, so no ideea; but usually AI means annoying stupidity, since no matter how is built, can't please each of us, since we all play differently and expect different things, also we learn and adapt and expect the AI to change again when we do. That's not possible in this game, they need to add what "Advanced Tactics" had.

[Metalzen]

   I'm currently finishing up my second play through and on nightmare difficulty. I agree the companion A.I. makes me scratch my head at times and miss the advanced tactics from DA:O. Something I have found that helped me considerably, especially on Dragon fights, is setting my companions follow target to themselves. It seems that the main reason your followers end up where you didn't want them is due to them finishing whatever ability they had qued up at time of being positioned, then revert to following the controlled player (the default A.I. state).   I play a tank and this is bad news when I get the dragon where I want him and them my party is standing there with me for no reason against my wishes lol. Using follow self tends to keep them where I put them using the hold position command, albeit doing this from the tactical view seems to work best.

 

   This may help those having issues getting followers to stay put. There is a down side to this however, in that they tend to be more aggressive and if not watched will occasionally pursue enemies or run off to find enemies near by you haven't yet aggroed. As for ability use I actually like to micro manage my party for more difficult fights, so I tend to keep timing crucial skills disabled and use them myself. That way those abilities aren't on cool down when I want them.  Anyway I've defeated all the dragons at or below level on nightmare without exploiting and those changes and a bit of mirco management helped keep my companions where I wanted them and doing what I wanted them to do. Hope this helps some people out

[JBenny5781]

I don't have issues with somewhat micromanaging the tactical camera moving guys around.  That's part of the fun (for me).

 

The biggest issues is the AI not recognizing hazards on the battlefield and walking right through them, or just standing in them.  If I move a guy from point A to point B, it would be nice to either have the ability to move through multiple points so I can control how they avoid hazards, so essentially I can control if they move right or left of a hazard.  Right now I can only control 1 point in a move command (final destination).  Or if the AI just knows to avoid hazards, you wouldn't need to have that multiple point control over movements.  

 

Or if a party member is actually on hold in a position and the dragon comes up on them and starts chomping down on them, or blasting fire in their face, it might be beneficial for them to understand to move to cover, or run away!!  Rather than just standing around roasting marshmallows!!  LOL

[I saved Star Wars :D]

http://www.reddit.co...reat_ai_tricks/

That really helped me, but I'd encourage anyone who is frustrated to have a look in the combat forum, too.

Personally, I have tank follow himself, with a defensive like shield wall and a taunt to preferred. One dos defends him with a defensive and an escape set to preferred and last dps follows the previous guy with similar preferences.

This means that your ai dps will focus, one enemy at a time, the guys already attacking your tank. They will prioritise blocking or dodging both AoEs or direct attacks.

If you want more combos, you could set them to follow themselves (as they will then try to use detonators anywhere on the battlefield) but they will also potentially draw aggro as a result.

Anyway, it's not DAO style tactics but with a bit of experimentation you can get broadly good behaviour from the AI most of the time and just have to duck into tactical cam etc every now and then as needed.

[JBenny5781]

   I'm currently finishing up my second play through and on nightmare difficulty. I agree the companion A.I. makes me scratch my head at times and miss the advanced tactics from DA:O. Something I have found that helped me considerably, especially on Dragon fights, is setting my companions follow target to themselves. It seems that the main reason your followers end up where you didn't want them is due to them finishing whatever ability they had qued up at time of being positioned, then revert to following the controlled player (the default A.I. state).   I play a tank and this is bad news when I get the dragon where I want him and them my party is standing there with me for no reason against my wishes lol. Using follow self tends to keep them where I put them using the hold position command, albeit doing this from the tactical view seems to work best.

 

   This may help those having issues getting followers to stay put. There is a down side to this however, in that they tend to be more aggressive and if not watched will occasionally pursue enemies or run off to find enemies near by you haven't yet aggroed. As for ability use I actually like to micro manage my party for more difficult fights, so I tend to keep timing crucial skills disabled and use them myself. That way those abilities aren't on cool down when I want them.  Anyway I've defeated all the dragons at or below level on nightmare without exploiting and those changes and a bit of mirco management helped keep my companions where I wanted them and doing what I wanted them to do. Hope this helps some people out

Good idea!  I didn't think about changing the "controlled character" behavior.  I also prevent the party from using skills I want them to control, so it's available when I need it.

[I saved Star Wars :D]

Jbenny, that's why you set escapes to preferred, so they dodge out of AoE. It's not perfect, but it works.

If you are giving them a hold order, then why would the AI move? You have specifically given them a hold order.

My advice is as above. In my experience the AI handles it well and the only person who takes significant damage from AoE is me if I'm being derpy XD.

(PS I tried to get the AI to run through traps at a certain point where many are spawned. I was unable to, the path finding took them round every single one no matter what I did. This was out of combat. Clearly, therefore, the AI does recognise hazards and avoids. My guess is that using offensive combat skills, if set to preferred, comes higher up the food chain than dodging hazards when in combat.)

[JBenny5781]

Jbenny, that's why you set escapes to preferred, so they dodge out of AoE. It's not perfect, but it works.

If you are giving them a hold order, then why would the AI move? You have specifically given them a hold order.

My advice is as above. In my experience the AI handles it well and the only person who takes significant damage from AoE is me if I'm being derpy XD.

(PS I tried to get the AI to run through traps at a certain point where many are spawned. I was unable to, the path finding took them round every single one no matter what I did. This was out of combat. Clearly, therefore, the AI does recognise hazards and avoids. My guess is that using offensive combat skills, if set to preferred, comes higher up the food chain than dodging hazards when in combat.)

IDK what "escapes" are.  I'm playing on XB1.  That must be a PC option?

[I saved Star Wars :D]

Escapes being evade, fade step, combat roll

[JBenny5781]

Ok.  I do have those active, but I guess since I have a hold command on, it's not being used?  I'm trying to find good management advice.  So far fighting the Giants and other larger enemies haven't been overly difficult with combat tactics, and I've never noticed the hazards issue until started fighting my first dragon last night.  Tonight I'm going to change their following behavior and see if some of this corrects itself.  

[I saved Star Wars :D]

Yeah, if you tell them to hold, they will do exactly that.

[JBenny5781]

Changing that behavior to follow themselves really helped. They still ran into the fire spots occasionally, however they maintained the fight and beat that dragon the first attempt after changing that behavior setting. Good advice!

[I saved Star Wars :D]

I think following their own targets should lead toure combos in general fights too, cos they are free to switch target if a detonation opportunity comes up (might find they pull aggro off the tank more though)