53 réponses à ce sujet

[Dherelv]

Actually, imo the fact that everybody disapproves of it it's what's the best... Ferelden/Orlais is a place where mages are discriminated.

It's life, anyone who talks against common sense get peoples bad faces.

 

Say, for instance, someone start talking in favor of communism in US... will be bashed. This game is just imitating real life.

[fcedric]

I agree Mage to be free, but with the help of templars (if anything happen) ... 

I'm a mage and i need a tank to protect me when i launch my spells on abominations...

So one mage one templar is a good formula... and of course mage and templars should be friends... 

[berrieh]

You can say it in Redcliffe to the mages without losing approval. Just depends on who's with you if you're just talking about expressing the opinion. If you bring around people who disagree with your stance, why are you surprised if they Disapprove of what you say. 

 

Of the Recruit/Conscript Mages/Templar, I don't think there's any option you can pick where someone doesn't disapprove, is there? 

[Iono]

Best route is to build a Hogwarts!

 

 

 

Honestly tho, I talked to Vivienne about mages and the circle of magi, at first she was pissed at me and wanted to know how I'd fix it. I told her I'd have mages join the chantry, she greatly approved!

 

This was in my second playthrough. [/b]Is there any other expansion on this in the game[b]? Honestly Templar/mage buddy cop movies, yo!

[Slapstick83]

Maybe it's not a popular opinion to have right now due to the big ****** whole in the sky with demons pouring out of it - which any normal person would put somewhere in the vicinity of "magic run amok"

[schall_und_rauch]

Why would anyone agree that mages should be totally free? their a danger to everyone around them, especially if untrained

 

Mages don't worry me. And I don't believe the templars when they say I should be worried.

I'm more likely to be shanked in a bar than eaten by an abomination. You can hear those coming a mile away.

[StrangeStrategy]

Why would anyone agree that mages should be totally free? their a danger to everyone around them, especially if untrained

 

Spoilers
Agreed. Their behaviour immediately after being freed was awful: Then they sided with Tevinter and destroyed Haven. Not to mention the Grey Warden Mages, who also fell to corruption and used Blood Magic to murder their order and create a demon army... I mean, I can't blame them 100%, but this makes it pretty clear we need a plan B to mitigate the damage they can do... And the current answer is: Templars. 

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

Mages don't worry me. And I don't believe the templars when they say I should be worried.
I'm more likely to be shanked in a bar than eaten by an abomination. You can hear those coming a mile away.

Id still rather keep mages in circles even if disasters ain't largely common, a normal boy with a sword can't wipe a village out by himself like an untrained mage like Connor could

[schall_und_rauch]

Spoilers
I mean, I can't blame them 100%, but this makes it pretty clear we need a plan B to mitigate the damage they can do... And the current answer is: Templars. 

 

Templars fall easily to the corruption, and can be controlled by a villain because of their addiction to lyrium. And so they destroy Haven.

I mean, I can't blame them 100%, but this makes it pretty clear we need a plan B to mitigate the damage they can do... And the current answer is: Mages.

 

Plan A and B are both alternatives, they just don't work together. And why is that the case? Look at it from a meta-perspective: The BW writers wanted to not only give us an option, but give us the feeling that the option we are taking is the correct one, from some perspective. They specifically avoid giving us a black-and-white answer. Or, in this case, whatever answer we chose, it will always appear as the white one.

[Chenoah]

It's more realistic. Especially if you are role playing a specific personality for a character. I understand not wanting to net disapproval but in what world does everyone agree and always approve of everything everyone says all the time. I did find it a little irritating that 

Spoiler

Sera disapproved in Crestwood three times when speaking to the spirit who needed guidance into the fade. First when I asked Cole to help, next when I asked Solas and then again when I agreed to help. However, that just meant her and my inquisitor just don't agree on much in my role playing version of the game.

I enjoy getting to know what each character does and does not like since they do not always voice it. 

Spoiler

Also funny, Cole greatly approving of you keeping the couple having sex in the abandoned inn hush, hush.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Nugwarts.. just sayin.

[Grondoth]

One of the most consistent, powerful, and tonally appropriate through-lines in DA:O was that mages are can not be free, and are never free. The entire mage origin is about freedom, and it is negative about it.

 

The first real thing you do is your Harrowing, in where you meet an apprentice like you who got lost in the fade. He helps you, teaching you to change forms to get around. At the end of it, he asks you for a favor after he helped you out the whole time. He wants to be free. He just needs a bit of your help to escape. You have to refuse him, someone seeking freedom. He's, of course, a demon. Who tells you that this is just the start, these challenges will now face you your entire life. You will never be free of things like him. The next part of the mage origin deals with Jowan, a mage who wants to run away with someone he's in love with, to be free. You help him, either testing him on behalf of the First Enchanter or because you want to help him yourself. Turns out he's a maleficarum, a blood mage, someone using forbidden and evil magic. You shouldn't have trusted him, and he escapes using that power.

 

This isn't on accident. You don't get a cluster on a theme like this because the people writing it just sort of stumbled into it. This is here for a reason, it's to set a tone and rules for being a mage in their universe. You are randomly chosen to bear a great gift, but it has a terrible cost. Just as the Grey Wardens become heroes and die mad, mages must understand that their powers necessitate their confinement and isolation. Do do anything other has terrible consequences for all those around them. Going into a circle isn't about safety vs freedom or anything like that; it's a responsibility, it's the mage's heroic sacrifice.

 

The narrative doesn't end there. Redcliffe and all the sadness and death that happens there is because a mother, fearing the loss of her son's freedom, conceals his magical talents from those looking and hires a private tutor. As a mage, you know him well, and he is responsible for the poisoning of the Arl. He fears his loss of freedom, and did terrible things to keep it. The circle you come from is nearly destroyed because a powerful mage, desiring more freedom for mages, contacts and uses forces he shouldn't. 

 

At this point it is vital to remember that DA:O was billed as, developed as, and written as a dark fantasy world. The darkness in a dark fantasy world doesn't mean that people all wear dark clothes and there's blood everywhere and sex happens. It means that the rules of the world are unfavorable towards the people living in it. Good people can do good things and it can, will, and should backfire on them, because there are no easy ways out of the sacrifices people have to make in a world like this. It's a horror setting, and it creates different types of heroism that stand all the brighter because they must make actual hard choices and suffer actual consequences. 

 

As such, the idea that Connor's mom and Jowan and Uldred aren't wrong doesn't make their actions any better as far as the world's consequences are concerned. This was one of the things Origins got really really right, and what made me really come to respect the game. It wasn't a sure thing, remember. This game could've been awful, they released a trailer set to Marilyn Manson. But DA:O followed through on much of the tone these settings demand.

 

Even consider the defeat of the archdemon. You are given a choice: die, have someone you know and (probably)like die, or engage in a profane ritual with an effect that no one understands. These aren't the choices of a triumphant hero. They can't be, because you can't be. Because the world just doesn't work that way.

 

Of course, none of this whole write up means anything because the people who made the first Dragon Age left when they saw where the series was going, and the tone has pretty much **** the bed since then. Consider how the old god soul story wraps up. It was supposed to be the consequences of a cheated death coming home to roost, and nothing happens. It really cheapens the event in DA:O.

[Sartoz]

A mage can cause a mini-nuke. That's all fine and all, but they also are open to demonic corruption that makes them that nuke out of their own volition.

 

Its like if someone could destroy a city. Big deal, most of us could find a way to do it if we tried hard enough IRL. But then again, we don't have people that could snap at any moment, as just one person, and do it, whether they even wanted to or not.

 

 ------------

Big Snip

 

That's plain and simple rationalization.

 

I give you Tevinter. No circles there. No jailing. No Big-nukes. Mages in control... no doom.

[herkles]

That's plain and simple rationalization.

 

I give you Tevinter. No circles there. No jailing. No Big-nukes. Mages in control... no doom.

wrong. there are circles in Tevinter. It is where the Magisters and other powerful mages go to train. Moreover each of the 7 circles elect a senior enchanter to be a magister on their behalf to the Magisterium.

 

More-over abominations do happen in tevinter. Here is a magister explaining about blood magic and bolded is the line about abominations. 

 

 

Let me correct you, apprentince. While it is true that blood magic is woven through the history of Tevinter, there are good reasons, quite aside from the Chantrys sermons, that such arts are now frowned upon. Consider the ancient magisters who once attempted to map the Fade itself. A worthy goal, perhaps, but a costly one. When their spells exhausted their lyrium supply, the magisters spilled the blood of countless slaves. To what end? the shifting nature of the fade made the effort futile, and so much death left the magisters open to possession by demons. Wasteful!

 

Some still idolize Tirena of the Rock, who used blood magic against the Qunari during the Steel Age. They say she cut her flesh on the Shore of Marnas Pell as the dreadnought sailed in, turned her spells against their crews, and boiled the very blood in their veins. A terrifying display, to be sure, but against Qunari? It only made them more determined when they besiged the ports of Carastes.

 

And what of Magister Calanthus, that fool who believed he could make himself the "Ascended Man" with blood magic? Thirthy-three slaves died in that rite, and calantus became an abomination so horrfic that his apprenctinces tore out of their eyes at the sight of him.

 

You quote the example of the lovers Crescens and Seraphinian. Yes, Seraphinian offered his own blood to cure Crescens of her wasting disease, and Crescens lived a long life. But if the noblest use of blood magic still calls for the death of a good man, is that not enough to reconsider?

 

-Letter from Magister Aesthia to her apprentice, 7:71 Storm

[AlexMBrennan]

Please, if you want our characters to express their opinions(and you want it to matter for the epilogue), give us a safe environment to express them. An operation on the War Table, or an option to tell it to Solas or Leliana, where they would heartily agree, we'll get approval, and things would be happier all around.

 

So, you are saying that actual characters should be replaced with yes-men who will agree with whatever you say? Where do you draw the line? Should they also agree that killing all elves is a jolly good idea if the inquisitor wakes up feeling unusually genocidal?

[Shandyr]

But what's cool is if you earn their approval in other ways you can still have the high-approval conversations and have them recognize the views you've expressed in those conversations.

 

Yeah happened to me with Cassandra. I repeatedly stated that I didn't believe in the maker and criticised the chantry a lot and demanded freedom for the mages.

But through other means I got high approval from her and she acknowledged that she valued me as a friend and respected me a lot

even though I did not believe and even though we didn't always agree.

 

It was nice to see there can be friendship and mutual respect without the need to just always agree with her and always say "yes".

[Sartoz]

wrong. there are circles in Tevinter. It is where the Magisters and other powerful mages go to train. Moreover each of the 7 circles elect a senior enchanter to be a magister on their behalf to the Magisterium.

 

More-over abominations do happen in tevinter. Here is a magister explaining about blood magic and bolded is the line about abominations. 

My bad on the circles thing. Obviously that is where they train. I have not, however, come across templars as jailers. Perhaps you can also point this out to me?

 

Thanks

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

I'd say mages shouldn't be free. So everything looks right about right

[C0uncil0rTev0s]

Aaaand just by the way. Can you point out a GOOD tevinter mage apart from Dorian, who's a sassy ****** but somewhat good guy?
I take it there's a reason for that.

Freedom isn't and shouldn't be:
1. Limitless (because it will surely ruin someone else's rights);

2. Free (if you take any action you must answer for it).

 

Practice says mages are a bit weak in understanding those 2 lines.

[Chaeden]

The thing I saw reading the initial post isn't asking that no one disagree as some people only wanting to make arguments keep bringing up but that you should be able to talk about those topics with people that AREN'T against it as opposed to only people who are. Note him saying he wants to be able to say those things to Solas and such as opposed to only getting the option to say those things to characters like Vivi, Cas, etc.

 

And my stance is mages SHOULD have freedom. That does not mean no restrictions. Normal civilians are free that doesn't mean there aren't laws based around making them not do things and law enforcement for when they DO try to do those things. In that regard the Templars should ALSO exist. In my ideal Dragon Age world my options would not be: Do you like cats or dogs? Dogs *cat explodes*/ Cats *Dog explodes*. It'd be: Dogs*get dog as pet leave cat to walk away.* The Templars should be a policing force that are themselves policed. The mages would be allowed to have family and not have any children they ever have ripped away from them at birth to be raised in a chantry as far from you as possible and should they develop magic sent to a different circle entirely. Mages wouldn't be ripped from their families at birth they would have schools the families could send them to that teach them how to control their power and allows visits and letters until the mage is determined safely trained enough to head back to their home or get a job working at the school or some other magical career like researching new spells or something as someone said elsewhere fairly Hogwarts esque aside from not being able to head home every year until its determined safe enough that they aren't going to contact demons and set their house on fire due to lack of control *I won't say accidently because that could still happen given Solas' conversation with Sera about peeing magic and people being stupid*. Basically everyone needs to sit down and actually talk things out instead of having a massive series of knee jerk reactions to each other until Templars are murdering people with sticks in their hands despite the person currently being the process of shoveling, and mages throwing fireballs at anything that looks at them funny.*Honestly though Bioware is VERY obviously in the Mages are in the right band considering the entirety of DA2's Templars being dicks and then you get to the Hinterlands in this game and you get like 9 separate stories of Templars ruining lives and slaughtering defenseless mages by burning down their house with them in it and such meanwhile they say mages are a problem and have them attack the town then never hear another case of mages causing issues aside from some infighting and one of them killing a Templar who was actually a good guy who was hanging out with the bad guys.*

 

To further respond to the person who talked about 'heard of a single good vint aside from Dorian' Alexius pre son being blighted, Alexius son, the entire family from Tevinter Dorian puts you in contact with and you try to keep alive from the venatori sending assassins, Dorian's dad to a degree outside of being a homophobe and resorting to blood magic to try to cure it. There are PLENTY of good Tevinter mages. The issue is they aren't in power because the bad ones have MORE power from blood magic. The funniest thing to me that I ever got from the war room is if you send Templars to protect the pro-inquisition family in Tevinter and the mage assassin's flip OUT because they'd never encountered Templars able to block magic and immediately turn tail and run away never bothering them again. Tevinter is only as bad as it is because the only POLICING force the Templars are neutered and paid for by the mages of Tevinter to say 'We have Templars see.' while the Templars are really just Mercs in fancy armor.

[RenAdaar]

Spoilers
Agreed. Their behaviour immediately after being freed was awful: Then they sided with Tevinter and destroyed Haven. Not to mention the Grey Warden Mages, who also fell to corruption and used Blood Magic to murder their order and create a demon army... I mean, I can't blame them 100%, but this makes it pretty clear we need a plan B to mitigate the damage they can do... And the current answer is: Templars. 

That all depends on who you side with though. If you side with the mages its the templars that destroy Haven and go insane. But its not really either sides fault they both get manipulated.

And it wasn't just the mage wardens that got mind controlled all the wardens did so you can't just pin the demon army and the corruption of the wardens on the mages that was corys doing.  

[schall_und_rauch]

Aaaand just by the way. Can you point out a GOOD tevinter mage apart from Dorian, who's a sassy ****** but somewhat good guy?
I take it there's a reason for that.

Freedom isn't and shouldn't be:
1. Limitless (because it will surely ruin someone else's rights);

2. Free (if you take any action you must answer for it).

 

Practice says mages are a bit weak in understanding those 2 lines.

 

Yes, I agree, it'd be horrible if Freedom was free. I mean, nobody should have the Freedom  to be free, and mages must realize this.

 

Also Maevaris Tilani.

[kyles3]

That all depends on who you side with though. If you side with the mages its the templars that destroy Haven and go insane. But its not really either sides fault they both get manipulated.

And it wasn't just the mage wardens that got mind controlled all the wardens did so you can't just pin the demon army and the corruption of the wardens on the mages that was corys doing.  

 

Glad someone pointed this out. The game does a great job of showing both sides' weaknesses.

[herkles]

 

My bad on the circles thing. Obviously that is where they train. I have not, however, come across templars as jailers. Perhaps you can also point this out to me?

 

Thanks

Correct in Tevinter the Templars are nothing quite like the southern templars. they don't have their anti-magic powers, nor do they watch over mages. That is still their role on the paper, but in modern tevinter the templars only go after those that lose favor or fail in politics and the other magisters and senior enchanters send them in to remove their political disgrace.

 

Aaaand just by the way. Can you point out a GOOD tevinter mage apart from Dorian, who's a sassy ****** but somewhat good guy?
I take it there's a reason for that.

 

Maevaris Tilani, the transgender wife/widow of Varric's cousin Thorold. She is cool and defintly a Good tevinter mage. She has a cameo in a war table mission for dorian where she can work to condem the venatori in the Magisterium.  I so hope that she is in the next game.