42 réponses à ce sujet

[GuyNice]

I have a 360 controller and I use it for ass creed/batman/mordor-esque games regularly. I have, however, played Dragon Age on M&K since Origins and I normally favor this control scheme. I tried both for DA:I and I prefer M&K for this game. I find it quicker to aim AoE's with and I like seeing all my abilities (and cooldown status) at the same time without flipping a switch.

 

The keyboard does require extensive key remapping, but I normally rebind keys when starting a new game anyways, so it wasn't a big deal for me. I think this is completely subjective. Use whatever works for you. I just wanna point out that using M&K isn't necessarily a limiting factor.

 

The "clunkyness" some people are experiencing is likely tied to animations speed and the ability to cancel animations mid-action. This is possible with some animations (I normally hit the search key to cancel animations in single player). Run/stop and sharp turning is a bit slower to react though, and not much can be done to mitigate that.

[Nitrobucket]

If I swing a heavy stick at one guy and knock him over, i wouldn't swing it a 2nd time at nothing before moving on to the next target

[Selea]

The biggest issue I find is the concept of 'engagement' - where the game feels like it's fighting you for control of your character. Having a specific button to 'disengage' is silly, why can't it just let me get in and out of combat?

However, when I'm actually pressing an attack it feels very responsive. And that's on M+K.

 

Disengage is used to order the party to stop the combat stance (that happens automatically once an enemy is spotted by your or one of your companions) when the fight is still active (i.e. enemies are still actively spotted by you or a companion). For example if there's an enemy that is running away and Cassandra (or some other member of the party) runs behind him and you don't want this to happen, simply press the "disengage" key and she will return to non combat state following you. Another example (even clearer maybe) can be in the Fallow Mire when undead spawn if you enter the water. Combat mode will be initiated (enemies spotted) but many times (especially if you already did that zone and you just want to continue) is more appropriate to not attack and simply go away. Just use "disengage", go away and party members will follow you instead of fighting (if you simply go away instead party members - if not set to defend or follow you - will much probably continue engaging instead).

Disengage is also used when you want to escape a difficult encounter that you risk of losing. It's much faster to press "disengage" because you stop fighting and movement out of fighting is faster than inside it. Also your companions willl immediately follow you hence much probably not dying in the process (if you leave them there fighting a losing battle they will surely die).

So I sincerely don't understand why you don't like the concept. It's not that you need to use the button in normal circumstances. It is a specific command used in specific scenarios, when you want, in fact, to force the party away from engagement stance. For the rest combat (and end of combat) is automatic. You enter combat when you (or a party member) spot an enemy and you end combat when no more enemy is spotted. Disengage is to be used only when an enemy is spotted but you don't want to fight it (as it happens automatically), when you want to stop an ongoing fight to retreat or when you want to force to stop a party member from pursuing a retreating enemy. In all the other cases I don't understand why you would have to use the order, sincerely.

P.S: To note that "spotting" an enemy doesn't mean when you (as the player) actively see a threat. In fact if you have noticed combat many times starts when you have already actively seen enemies much before, but your character instead hasn't yet and so you must come nearer them. I don't know the exact range in meters under which an enemy is spotted by the character and hence combat is initiated, but it is probably something around 30 meters judging it by a skill like Lunge and Slash that has 15 meters range (and the range at which combat is initiated is usually double that, maybe a little less).

[pexx]

I use kb and mouse and it feels plenty smooth to me. The game is a glory of melee goodness with my dw rogue, and I'm a group slaying God. As to comparing it with fps, I've played halo, gears of war, and call of duty, along with sundry other fps mmos and while they are plenty smooth for shooting stuff, I find them no more well done when it comes to melee fighting. Then their clumsiness shows more than this game.

[Selea]

The only thing that is weird with a DW rogue are the hit boxes with normal daggers, but once you equip dual bladed ones then everything works much better.

However it's true that if you use a controller the melee gameplay is smoother but that's not as much a problem of the control scheme per se but just because it is simply much easier to go, for example, diagonally with a controller than with keyboard keys. Since to use melee skills many times you have to direction them to not miss (outside of tac cam) this means that with a controller using those skills is obviously smoother and more intuitive. It's simply more automatic and easier to point a direction with the stick along pressing a button that pressing a key number in the keyboard along a direction key (or a combination of them if you want to go diagonally) instead. The type of action is better suited to a controller than to a keyboard. You can naturally learn to do it well also with it, but it will never be as smooth, especially in more specific cases (as, again, going diagonally, where you have to press two direction keys along a number one).

Now, if Tac Cam did work at its best then it would be the perfect solution (since this thing is done automatically there) but sadly for now it doesn't work so well so it is much better to use normal cam and there the action control scheme is working surely better with a controller, at least for melee skills that use directioning.

 

[teks]

I'm not totally sure what this means, but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone claiming a controller one-handed plus mouse is better than M+K. That sounds ridiculous.

I've heard that the sticks are supposedly more responsive, but when I tried my pad, the only improvement I saw was based on circling. In terms of general movement I couldn't see any difference.

Thats because noone is crazy enough to try it.

Think about it. You got an analog stick replacing the WSAD keys, and plenty of buttons within easy reach. I picked it up when I didn't have a second keyboard for my back up pc. Turns out I could move smoother with the combination and ended up adopting it.

[Engraved]

I'm sorry engraved but the widely accepted fact is based on first person shooters, not third person rpgs. Accuracy is not an issue here, niether is a few ms of reaction speed.

The analog sticks are more responsive then WSAD keys which only function as ON/OFF toggles in 4 cardinal directions. Its far smoother and easier to move around with the gamepad once you get the hang of it, and this is on top of the dysmal keyboard/mouse support.

I've tried them both, and I strongly favor mouse, but it sucks here, really bad.

 

Even in first person shooters I use half a controller in my left hand and a mouse in my right. Controllers eat keyboards alive. Its the mouse thats the bread winner and without proper optimization its just dead weight.

 

I'm not interested in debating this to death, but if you have the ability to try a controller I would recommend reserving judgement until you do so. I can help with any emulation problems if the controller is non-xbox.

 

Er... M/s and aiming precision are not the only advantages of KB+M. The mouse, in case you didn't know, allows for far faster turn rates than analog sticks (and the keyboard, but nobody should keyboard turn because you have the mouse) and the keyboard has far more buttons available for hotkeys than any controller. Even the most elegantly designed RPG's on consoles rarely have enough button real-estate to efficiently distribute all the functions to buttons and usually resort to clunky virtual buttons like the ubiquitous power wheel which is always less efficient than simply using the item, ability, spell or similar in a single keystroke via the keyboard. Because the keyboard actually has enough keys to map more functions than ten xbox controllers that can all be executed effectively. Hell there have been mice with more buttons than any console controller available for years.

 

And since you asked, yes I have an xbox (and therefore a controller). I barely use it because most games I want to play are multiplats (or PC exclusives), and multiplats inevitably wind up superior on the PC due to unofficial bugfixing patches, mods, access to the developer console, and the ability to run at higher than 1080p30FPS. And waddaya know, it happens to have a superior controller scheme already hooked up.

[teks]

No, the mouse is slower then the analog stick with turning rates. A lot slower.

If I wanna turn right I move the stick right, back? move the stick back. It takes an instant.

 

Your using FPS arguments in a third person made-for-console game. I'm a huge fan of moue play and FPS but its apples and oranges here.

 

I respect the button issue, and the potential for mouse and keyboard which was wasted. It took them a lot of work to get an RPG to work so well on a controller, if only they spent half that time on a keyboard I'd be using my PC traditionally.

 

Your poor xbox is a relic, which is the bigger problem. Well, besides the fact that PCs are superior.

 

Anyway, we both use controllers and M&K. We are both aware of the differences. What we can agree on is this...

The mouse and keyboard setup in this game is terrible. It is not up to the potential it should be, and this may leave players feeling that the game is clunky.

The gamepad is setup as well as it could ever be which makes the game feel less clunky for these users.

[Engraved]

No, the mouse is slower then the analog stick with turning rates. A lot slower.

If I wanna turn right I move the stick right, back? move the stick back. It takes an instant.

 

Your using FPS arguments in a third person made-for-console game. I'm a huge fan of moue play and FPS but its apples and oranges here.

 

I respect the button issue, and the potential for mouse and keyboard which was wasted. It took them a lot of work to get an RPG to work so well on a controller, if only they spent half that time on a keyboard I'd be using my PC traditionally.

 

Your poor xbox is a relic, which is the bigger problem. Well, besides the fact that PCs are superior.

 

Anyway, we both use controllers and M&K. We are both aware of the differences. What we can agree on is this...

The mouse and keyboard setup in this game is terrible. It is not up to the potential it should be, and this may leave players feeling that the game is clunky.

The gamepad is setup as well as it could ever be which makes the game feel less clunky for these users.

 

Agreed, the KB+M is not optimized well here. And consoles are basically **** PC's trying to justify their existence by holding select game franchises ransom.

[tmp7704]

If I swing a heavy stick at one guy and knock him over, i wouldn't swing it a 2nd time at nothing before moving on to the next target

It's a side effect of trying to make animations for some abilities more flashy and complicated than just single swings. The game isn't sophisticated to the point where it could only play half of such animation/move, any more than it can make your character cast half of the barrier or do only part of the evasive leap.

[JBenny5781]

For me the problem is more with the ignorant AI. Party member walking right through fire and such. I did get a behavior suggestion from someone to set Marty members to follow themselves. This actually works pretty well, but you do have to micro manage combat to keep them fighting a single target together. But they will protect themselves better in combat.

[Shahadem]

I agree, the low response time makes the game extremely clunky. If I see something about to go off underneath me I know I am screwed because my characters aren't going to stop their current animation fast enough to move out of the way.

 

The long animations wouldn't be a problem if the resulting effect was devastating to the enemy. But it almost never is.

 

And the spells leave much to be desired, as does the terrible idea to focus too much on autoattacks over ability/spell use. Coincidentally this was the same problem that Mass Effect 2 had for me. I didn't want an FPS with crappy abilities I could only rarely use as a throwback to the first game, I wanted the first game's combat where I was able to use my abilities almost nonstop and then only have to use autoattacks/shoot occasionally.

[GuyNice]

I agree, the low response time makes the game extremely clunky. If I see something about to go off underneath me I know I am screwed because my characters aren't going to stop their current animation fast enough to move out of the way.

 

The long animations wouldn't be a problem if the resulting effect was devastating to the enemy. But it almost never is.

 

And the spells leave much to be desired, as does the terrible idea to focus too much on autoattacks over ability/spell use. Coincidentally this was the same problem that Mass Effect 2 had for me. I didn't want an FPS with crappy abilities I could only rarely use as a throwback to the first game, I wanted the first game's combat where I was able to use my abilities almost nonstop and then only have to use autoattacks/shoot occasionally.

Escape skills can be used to break animations (combat roll, evade, fadestep), and in some cases they break disabling effects (stealth+, combat roll+).

As for "focusing too much on auto attacks", that's somewhat true in the early game. Later on however, every class can reduce their cooldowns and/or increase stamina/mana regen to the point where they can practically spam special abilities.

 

Mages get the fire passives that reduce cooldowns, KE to spam blade, Rift mage to have infinite mana, and even necro can do well by stacking regen passives. Warriors get Dragon Rage spam, Flow of Battle (reduce cd's by 1 sec on crit, available to both W&S or 2-hand). Rogues have the artificer passive, Flask of Fire, etc.

 

So I don't think this is a valid complaint.

[downsouthman1]

Disengage is used to order the party to stop the combat stance (that happens automatically once an enemy is spotted by your or one of your companions) when the fight is still active (i.e. enemies are still actively spotted by you or a companion). For example if there's an enemy that is running away and Cassandra (or some other member of the party) runs behind him and you don't want this to happen, simply press the "disengage" key and she will return to non combat state following you. Another example (even clearer maybe) can be in the Fallow Mire when undead spawn if you enter the water. Combat mode will be initiated (enemies spotted) but many times (especially if you already did that zone and you just want to continue) is more appropriate to not attack and simply go away. Just use "disengage", go away and party members will follow you instead of fighting (if you simply go away instead party members - if not set to defend or follow you - will much probably continue engaging instead).

Disengage is also used when you want to escape a difficult encounter that you risk of losing. It's much faster to press "disengage" because you stop fighting and movement out of fighting is faster than inside it. Also your companions willl immediately follow you hence much probably not dying in the process (if you leave them there fighting a losing battle they will surely die).

So I sincerely don't understand why you don't like the concept. It's not that you need to use the button in normal circumstances. It is a specific command used in specific scenarios, when you want, in fact, to force the party away from engagement stance. For the rest combat (and end of combat) is automatic. You enter combat when you (or a party member) spot an enemy and you end combat when no more enemy is spotted. Disengage is to be used only when an enemy is spotted but you don't want to fight it (as it happens automatically), when you want to stop an ongoing fight to retreat or when you want to force to stop a party member from pursuing a retreating enemy. In all the other cases I don't understand why you would have to use the order, sincerely.

P.S: To note that "spotting" an enemy doesn't mean when you (as the player) actively see a threat. In fact if you have noticed combat many times starts when you have already actively seen enemies much before, but your character instead hasn't yet and so you must come nearer them. I don't know the exact range in meters under which an enemy is spotted by the character and hence combat is initiated, but it is probably something around 30 meters judging it by a skill like Lunge and Slash that has 15 meters range (and the range at which combat is initiated is usually double that, maybe a little less).

Then I have not been using disengage to its full potential. But part of this is because there not many battles, sans dragons, that actually pose a serious threat to the longevity of my party. When I am faced with a legitimate threat that I feel myself losing to, I will let my entire party, except one PC die. I then take control of them, knowing that I set my AI up to reserve 1 potion. This will allow me to get away from anything, even dragons. But now I will add the knowledge you've imparted to add "disengage" into my escaping process. That will allow me to run faster at least.

[VilhoDog13]

Huh, guess it's just me but I found ME1 and DA:O to be clunkier.

[zyntifox]

I agree with what my wife says regarding the combat system: it's not responsive enought to play as an action game and too clunky to play more as a strategic game, on the ps4 at least for me.

[swk3000]

I can see where people are coming from, myself. I picked up the game for the XBOne because my sister loved the second game, but she's not comfortable with the keyboard and mouse setup; she prefers the controller. I therefore play on a console with the controller. Perhaps the biggest example I can think of is Terror demons. They have that attack where they disappear underground, then leap out in a different location that is marked by a circle. I never bother trying to move out of the way of these because I can't. Not because I don't see them in time, but because even when auto attacking, the game queues up actions that it won't cancel. I see the circle, let go of the auto attack button, and move the stick to get out of the way. It happens with plenty of time to get away from the attack. Unfortunately, my character decides to fire off a couple more attacks before moving. Before they can, however, the Terror Demon emerges, and I'm knocked down, leading to even more time that I'm not in control of my character. And the entire time, I'm not holding the trigger, and the stick is pushed off to one side to try to get out of the way. As a mage, I do have easy access to Fade Step, but since it has a 12 second cooldown, I can't rely on it being available at all times. I'm therefore reluctant to rely on it.

[GuyNice]

I can see where people are coming from, myself. I picked up the game for the XBOne because my sister loved the second game, but she's not comfortable with the keyboard and mouse setup; she prefers the controller. I therefore play on a console with the controller. Perhaps the biggest example I can think of is Terror demons. They have that attack where they disappear underground, then leap out in a different location that is marked by a circle. I never bother trying to move out of the way of these because I can't. Not because I don't see them in time, but because even when auto attacking, the game queues up actions that it won't cancel. I see the circle, let go of the auto attack button, and move the stick to get out of the way. It happens with plenty of time to get away from the attack. Unfortunately, my character decides to fire off a couple more attacks before moving. Before they can, however, the Terror Demon emerges, and I'm knocked down, leading to even more time that I'm not in control of my character. And the entire time, I'm not holding the trigger, and the stick is pushed off to one side to try to get out of the way. As a mage, I do have easy access to Fade Step, but since it has a 12 second cooldown, I can't rely on it being available at all times. I'm therefore reluctant to rely on it.

You can use the search button to cancel auto attack animations. This is also useful for 2h weapons as you can increase your attack speed by 50%~ with animation cancelling. Also, anticipation. Watch the Terror Demons and start moving when you suspect they're about burrow underground.