54 réponses à ce sujet

[Kjubaran]

I just took a Katari to 20 with that "To The Death" skill for the first time.  The skill definitely is better than it sounds on paper and instantly generates full guard in most situations.  The problem is, guard as it stands is all but worthless.  Full guard is very often broken in 1 hit from basic enemies.  If max guard is 25% of max health and max health is generally around 1000ish, then full guard (without skills) is 250.  How much can an un-upgraded barrier absorb?  I don't know what the numbers are but I can tell you from extensive experience a barrier is worth easily 10 times full guard.  I know barrier dissipates but it's very simple to recast it, and easy to spec it out so that it's up 100% of the time (with natural decay).  The fact that barrier is far, far superior to guard isn't debatable; it's why AW and other mage classes are the preferred classes for perilous.  The only reason the Legionnaire can tank is his invulnerability skills.  I'm not saying all warriors should be able to facetank the RTK through a whirlwind, but guard as it stands is all but worthless.

 

Normal fresh barrier strenght is around 3500 hit points (based on caster strength and staff)

[stysiaq]

As a person who really try his hardest to enjoy Katari, I say that he is in desperate need of a buff... Legionnaire's guard holds up because with his skills you have practically unlimited Guard, but really it's just a side effect of the invulnerability time as well. As a Katari everything that you'll earn with Charge will be gone in a first hit from an archer, and god forbid there's another hit or two. And that's on Threatening, and threatening becomes laughably easy when you have better than basic gear.

 

Katari needs to be babysat by Keepers/Elementalists with Barrier to deliver his underwhelming damage... Saying that Barrier and Guard are equal is laughable. Give Katari some built-in damage reduction from ranged attacks at least.

[Cuthlan]

Do you even heal on kill ring.
 

 

IMO, in a game where the loot is completely and unpredictably random... you should not balance the capability of any class around items.

[Credit2team]

well, ranged roles are definitely faceroll compared to melee units.

but if you actually become good with alchemist/ assassin/ reaver you can achieve insane burst damage 
so there's quite a payoff to learning the kits

the templar and legionare are also difficult compared to ranged kits, but instead of gaining burst damage in trade, they get survivability

the katari...is just broken... its terribly in need of a buff 

[stysiaq]

IMHO Alchemist and Assassin don't compare to Warriors. Rouges just hide in the shadows, pick a target, deliver their nukes to kill the target and instantly re-enter the shadows, thanks to the passive ability, so it's much easier to survive. Warriors get hit on the way to, during, and after they deliver damage (which is a lot lower than other characters).

[Apl_Juice]

When you get down to it, warriors are in the most risky positions on the battlefield, yet are the worst at protecting themselves (save for the Lego). Rogues can shed threat instantly as a part of their core skill, and mages have some sort of combination of Step/Cloak/Barrier on top of their unrivaled crowd control.

[slayergrim]

Hope bio ware sees this.

[Silvershroud]

Yeah, as a fan of the Katari, I have to agree.  Something needs to change.  Weaker archers, more guard, damage reduction, I don't care.  Just make the poor guy viable on Perilous!  Reaver and Templar suffer from the same problem, though not to the same extent, as Templar can shield wall and Reaver can self-heal.

[Trickshaw]

IMO, in a game where the loot is completely and unpredictably random... you should not balance the capability of any class around items.

 

^This

[Credit2team]

IMHO Alchemist and Assassin don't compare to Warriors. Rouges just hide in the shadows, pick a target, deliver their nukes to kill the target and instantly re-enter the shadows, thanks to the passive ability, so it's much easier to survive. Warriors get hit on the way to, during, and after they deliver damage (which is a lot lower than other characters).

but templar and lego can take the hits and do just fine, and the reaver can heal herself for enough as long as theres a tank thats keeping most of the agro off her

[Credit2team]

When you get down to it, warriors are in the most risky positions on the battlefield, yet are the worst at protecting themselves (save for the Lego). Rogues can shed threat instantly as a part of their core skill, and mages have some sort of combination of Step/Cloak/Barrier on top of their unrivaled crowd control.

sounds like you need to L2P templar

[Tieflingz]

Rogues can shed threat instantly as a part of their core skill,

All except for archers. They are, like, a beacon of aggro.

[Apl_Juice]

sounds like you need to L2P templar

I don't play templar at all, it looks supremely unfun. But from a cursory look, I don't see her doing much outside of the Dispel combo and shield walling.

[Apl_Juice]

All except for archers. They are, like, a beacon of aggro.

True, but so are melee, and the melee are, well, in melee range

[maba987]

Let's keep it on topic, which is the inherent advantage that ranged classes have over melee.  I don't advocate nerfing ranged, so I think one simple way this could be addressed is adding the passive skill that reduces ranged damage by 50% for ALL melee classes.

[Tieflingz]

Let's keep it on topic, which is the inherent advantage that ranged classes have over melee.  I don't advocate nerfing ranged, so I think one simple way this could be addressed is adding the passive skill that reduces ranged damage by 50% for ALL melee classes.

That and give them all the Unyielding passive. Maybe not Reaver once her Rampage is fixed, though that's up for debate.

[Storm_Changer]

When you get down to it, warriors are in the most risky positions on the battlefield, yet are the worst at protecting themselves (save for the Lego). Rogues can shed threat instantly as a part of their core skill, and mages have some sort of combination of Step/Cloak/Barrier on top of their unrivaled crowd control.

 

^ This. I think warriors in general need to be looked at. Most of them can't close gaps with any unit safely, let alone sustain themselves in battle. 

 

The armour warriors wear isn't particularly potent, so the guard they gain [which benefits from armour, barrier doesn't as far as I'm aware] doesn't make up for the disparity between mages barrier and warriors armour/guard. I honestly think warriors [bar legionnaire] need more reliable and useful ways to gain guard, especially the Katari who doesn't really fit any role [low-ish damage, poor guard, no life steal.] 

 

Edit: There's also the issue that enemy normal warriors can parry melee auto-attacks ad nauseum, putting warriors [especially reaver, who relies on damage to sustain] in a much weaker position than mages/rangers [rangers, if im not mistaken, don't tend to get their attacks blocked often and mages can't be blocked by most warrior types. 

[AhRealMonster]

I have to try out the AW before they nerf it. Haven't done it yet because every lobby I join has at least one Geralt of Riva in it.

I'd be extremely dissappointed in BW if they decide to nerf AW(or any class) instead adjusting and/or adding AI tactics, enemy group variety, map design and gameplay types

[Saboteur-6]

I'm not asking for a nerf to great classes like elementalist or knight enchanter because they're fun and you don't want to take away what's fun about the game. Classes like Katari need to be brought up to par.

For example, it's like pulling teeth playing a high lvl Katari on perilous even with using block and smash and charge for guard building. Even Barrier works much better than guard which leaves melee much to be desired. Elements also gets healing per enemy killed and they aren't even on the front lines. Diablo 3 gives it's barbarian a built in % dmg reduction because I'm sure they encountered the same issue. Reaver has a heal per hit ability and the trees have skills with damage reduction but still that's not even helping.

Guard needs to be on par with barrier. Melee needs a reliable heal per enemy killed in some way. Arrows need not 2 shot us. A built in % dmg reduction would be beneficial.

 

Most people are realizing that Guard isn't a reliable way to mitigate damage on Perilous so trying to fit a square peg in a round hole isn't they way to go. I disagree with pretty much everything you say here other than Katari needing looked into.

[AManOnATricycle]

^ This. I think warriors in general need to be looked at. Most of them can't close gaps with any unit safely, let alone sustain themselves in battle. 

 

The armour warriors wear isn't particularly potent, so the guard they gain [which benefits from armour, barrier doesn't as far as I'm aware] doesn't make up for the disparity between mages barrier and warriors armour/guard. I honestly think warriors [bar legionnaire] need more reliable and useful ways to gain guard, especially the Katari who doesn't really fit any role [low-ish damage, poor guard, no life steal.] 

 

Edit: There's also the issue that enemy normal warriors can parry melee auto-attacks ad nauseum, putting warriors [especially reaver, who relies on damage to sustain] in a much weaker position than mages/rangers [rangers, if im not mistaken, don't tend to get their attacks blocked often and mages can't be blocked by most warrior types. 

 

The "parrying ad nauseum" is something that is encountered by any melee class, and not all have usable workarounds. However, parrying does affect Archers and Hunters, because those parry attacks can block all 12 shots of Leaping Shot, a Long Shot, and even Full Draw. The first one of those three makes no sense.

 

Any class with a stun, knock down, or other CC can get around this. However, if playing the generally-used Reaver rampage build (War Horn/RoP, rampage, Devour, Dragon rage) all you can do is War Horn, and if you don't kill them the first time you hit them, they just start parrying again. 

 

As with the AW and Reaver, those classes that rely on doing damage as a part of their defensive structure have a great concept, but oftentimes poor execution. The AW has enough utility and tankiness to make up for the fact that it is predominantly a melee cloth class, as well as having both a gap closer (PotA/Fade Step) and ranged attacks. Reaver has neither a gap closer or ranged attack.

 

TLDR: Melee have it rough. Playing melee survivably (besides the AW) requires some modicum of intelligence and forethought before each pull.

 

And yes, the Katari has the highest skill requirement for the lowest reward. I played with a good Katari today. A hybrid dps/tank build, I'm 90% certain he had To the Death, Charging Bull, MB, and something else. But he was the first one I ever played with where I didn't spend the entire time bubbling him on my keeper. I could actually look at someone else without worrying he was going to flop like a wet paper bag. Fix the Katari. The Qunari are engines of destruction. They don't deserve a gimped class.

[Saboteur-6]

People are scared to use To the Death with the Katari and expect Charging Bull and Block and Slash to mitigate everything.

[tbxvividos]

Most people are realizing that Guard isn't a reliable way to mitigate damage on Perilous so trying to fit a square peg in a round hole isn't they way to go. I disagree with pretty much everything you say here other than Katari needing looked into.

"Most people"??

Me and my friends all do perfectly fine in perilous with legionnaire and templar.

Sounds like a l2p issue.

[Saboteur-6]

"Most people"??

Me and my friends all do perfectly fine in perilous with legionnaire and templar.

Sounds like a l2p issue.

 

I meant in terms of prioritizing that in a build and expecting to soak damage everywhere from everything (unless you're a Legionnaire). I don't mean that melee isn't viable in Perilous. I'm actually in support of Warrior classes being used.

[tbxvividos]

But legionnaire is the only class TRULY built around guard.

And it works fine for them.

Guard is just a small bonus for templar and katari, and is not the focus of their class.

In that light, I don't see any problem with guard mechanics.


Addendum: katari COULD be a guard focused class, but that would require a reworking of innate abilities/stats of the class. Guard itself is fine. Katari max hp/armor/abilities seem to be the problem.

[Saboteur-6]

But legionnaire is the only class TRULY built around guard.

And it works fine for them.

Guard is just a small bonus for templar and katari, and is not the focus of their class.

In that light, I don't see any problem with guard mechanics.


Addendum: katari COULD be a guard focused class, but that would require a reworking of innate abilities/stats of the class. Guard itself is fine. Katari max hp/armor/abilities seem to be the problem.

 

...that's why I said "unless you're a Legionnaire". My point is that the OP is offering suggestions with the expectation that generating Guard or soaking damage for EVERY Warrior class is the best way to mitigate damage. I'm saying that's not necessary.