I can see both sides of this, but I feel the same way as eyez does here. I think we've had enough folks trying to claim that they've been "blasted in the face" and had LGBT characters "shoved down their throats." Okay, as ironically amusing as those terms can be, it's getting old. Well, old again. This must be a post-release thing.
There’s like 4 people complaining about it. Rest like it, don’t care, or suck it up.
[snip]
Well, as I understand it, everything about Cullen is basically a retcon. In Origins he started as a nervous kid and ended as a murderous monster who went around killing every mage he encountered. Wasn't there even a dev quote post-Origins saying something creepy and rapey about how any encounter between Cullen and the female mage Warden would probably end violently?
From the moment they changed that to bring him back in DA2, he's basically been a different character. Personally I think the changes are for the best, but the upshot is that we can't trust anything about his characterization in DAO to inform his characterization in Inquisition. He was basically reconceptualized as a different person with the same name, so I think any changes in intended sexuality pale in comparison to the changes to his intended personality.
I completely agree with this. It lends a sort of Kaidan feel to the game, which as we can still see, people are still sore about. The main issue being that the second and third games clearly built on the fact that Kaidan was bi if modded in. Dragon Age doesn't do that with Cullen (as he is not a major character and cannot be romanced in the other two games). I would be ok if the content had made it into the finished game and he had some lines that reminisced about the mage character of either sex from the circle tower. As it stands now, he still only references the female mage.
Other than what I have states, I really don't have any more points to argue other than to me it would seem a really skeezy move.
Honestly, this sounds like rationalization. We’re all guilty of it at various times. You’re turning a feeling into a post-hoc explanation rather than examining the feeling, or the thought process.
Cullen, as written, is player- or bisexual. Nothing about his character is changed, as far as I can tell. Can you find something?
…
Btw, there’s a mod for a Cullen romance in DA:O. Combine that with Equal Love and you’re good to go.
Are you seriously comparing cut content for a "straight" character who was intended to be bi to a character who was always intended to be gay, and in fact, has "the horribleness of altering his sexuality" as a main part of his story??
@Veela
You have a point there I can see the appeal in this but in fairness if B-Ware does this they will be opening up the floodgates of disgruntled fans that wanted say a Bi Dorian/Sera Romance or even a Vivienne/Varric Romance and thats a slippery slope my friend.
I understand the appeal of Fan Service its important to keep your fans happy but B-Ware has a tendacy of caving into their fans I mean just look at Tali/Garrus both were made LI's and brought back throughout the entire ME Trilogy because of their rabbid Fan Bases.
veeia - Thanks, haha. I definitely sound whiny but alas.
I'm really tired so I'm not going to stick around for tonight for too much longer, but I'll try to respond briefly.
I feel like finding out your bisexual could be a part of a character and could be really awesome to explore. But when this character is previously established and it happens when they become a romance, ..that feels off. It does feel like it would be added just for the romance to be possible, which again feels like changing a character for the romance. Something I will never ever condone.
And retcon of his character. I disagree. The ending is a retcon, yes. But so is Leliana's death and a slew of other things. So endings, nay. Second, you call it 'retcon' but to me it is actually his character growth. He starts off young, go through torture, resentment, and ends up reconciling with his past in Inquisition. It's the same character, just plot growth. But he does not change as a character at core, and I feel strongly that his sexuality shouldn't either, especially in the context of just to be romanced.
(And again, sorry if I come off as blah. I'm not trying to be an ass, it's just I feel strongly about this and while I would absolutely have loved to see a noble guy who just happens to be gay/bi, I think the intent to make Cullen that guy was just wrong and goes against a lot in what I believe. I know most people don't feel the same about these things. You guys rock, I just disagree with some points. :3)
Guest_starlitegirl_*
I think they should just pull romance from their games completely. I really do. Most of them aren't that great. They have been declining since DAO which I felt had the best feel to them of all of them. You could truly immerse yourself in them where here? Not really even close to that from my perspective. And meanwhile, each game they release there is thread after thread of people who are upset by who is and is not an option. Beyond that it seems to bring up a lot all sorts of feelings that people have been dealing with related to their sexuality and orientation. It's just one big pandora's box that originally I think it gave a lot of people some satisfaction because they could in their game be bi or gay or straight and just enjoy it but since that original moment it has evolved into a pandora's box because now people don't like who they get or how the writer's create them. They don't like how things are handled and it becomes nothing but a huge debate all on every little detail. It's no longer that people can just simply enjoy the romance aspect. It's now all of us, me included, picking it apart. And it's a game. A GAME. This cannot be healthy. From some of the posts I've read it seems to just be bringing up more of the whole of what people have been dealing with their whole lives and I'm fairly certain the original intent was to give people a chance to be who they are when playing a romance.
I'm sure I'll get all sorts of ignores for this which I really don't care about. I just don't see how any of this helps anyone. People are mad because they don't like who their choices are. And yet, the romances aren't really that great. Certainly not anywhere near how good I thought they were for DAO. DA2 was just comical at how bad they were. This has some minor improvement to that but by minor I mean not much at all. Still closer to DA2 than DAO and yet people are upset by it all across the board. The first two weeks there were all these hate threads from hetero males. Now there are threads from the LGBT community that are bummed about changes or their choices or even how people are represented. If the relationships in the game only upset people or leave them feeling like their issues or wants/needs/concerns still aren't addressed then they aren't even serving their purpose, are they? They're just upsetting people which a game should probably avoid doing since games should equal fun.
Honestly, this sounds like rationalization. We’re all guilty of it at various times. You’re turning a feeling into a post-hoc explanation rather than examining the feeling, or the thought process.
Cullen, as written, is player- or bisexual. Nothing about his character is changed, as far as I can tell. Can you find something?
…
Btw, there’s a mod for a Cullen romance in DA:O. Combine that with Equal Love and you’re good to go.
Cullen as written in Inquisition may be bisexual, in Origins and 2, I don't think so. Neither game even had the option for a male protagonist to even romance him, so maybe in the 2 years since Kirkwall he discovered he liked men, but I highly doubt it. From the information I've read in this and other threads, it was stated that one character was meant to be bisexual and they ran out of time and/or they couldn't work it into the existing character's story. If the second part is true, and if that character is indeed Cullen, then that means that the writers couldn't work a believable reason into why he would be bisexual now and not earlier.
I'm a pick your battles kind of person, and this honestly isn't a battle I would support. Not only for the fact that I would rather a new character in a new game without all the baggage that Cullen and his fanbase brings, but because as Andir said, this only happened when he was able to become a romance, just like Kaidan, and just like Anders. It's the repeat coincidences of male characters "becoming bisexual" that grates on people's nerves. As much as I benefit from the occurance I recognize the problem.
If I am rationalizing, then you are justifying. And to be quite honest, I think LGBT players have much more to lose in terms of goodwill and understanding than we would gain by pushing this issue.
I'm getting a heavy impression of Vivienne and Fiona at the moment.
Cullen as written in Inquisition may be bisexual, in Origins and 2, I don't think so. Neither game even had the option for a male protagonist to even romance him, so maybe in the 2 years since Kirkwall he discovered he liked men, but I highly doubt it. From the information I've read in this and other threads, it was stated that one character was meant to be bisexual and they ran out of time and/or they couldn't work it into the existing character's story. If the second part is true, and if that character is indeed Cullen, then that means that the writers couldn't work a believable reason into why he would be bisexual now and not earlier.
I'm a pick your battles kind of person, and this honestly isn't a battle I would support. Not only for the fact that I would rather a new character in a new game without all the baggage that Cullen and his fanbase brings, but because as Andir said, this only happened when he was able to become a romance, just like Kaidan, and just like Anders. It's the repeat coincidences of male characters "becoming bisexual" that grates on people's nerves. As much as I benefit from the occurance I recognize the problem.
If I am rationalizing, then you are justifying. And to be quite honest, I think LGBT players have much more to lose in terms of goodwill and understanding than we would gain by pushing this issue.
I'm getting a heavy impression of Vivienne and Fiona at the moment.
The character is, in fact, Cullen. The developers got as far as recording the dialogue for his romance, including conversations with party members, so they certainly must have had a viable reason for believing it would work.
Edit: Genuinely asking, is there anything in DA2 that goes against the idea that any self contemplation on his own sexuality might have happened while he was in Kirkwall? He wasn't a romance option so I don't know what you're using to base the idea on that the change could only have happened in the past two years.
The character is, in fact, Cullen. The developers got as far as recording the dialogue for his romance, including conversations with party members, so they certainly must have had a viable reason for believing it would work.
Then maybe he is bisexual, just not into the male Inquisitor.
Well, David Gaider was asked about this on twitter. Not here to weigh in right now, just sharing some WoG:
https://twitter.com/...144584922066944
Then maybe he is bisexual, just not into the male Inquisitor.
That's also pretty feasible to me, honestly.
The character is, in fact, Cullen. The developers got as far as recording the dialogue for his romance, including conversations with party members, so they certainly must have had a viable reason for believing it would work.
Edit: Genuinely asking, is there anything in DA2 that goes against the idea that any self contemplation on his own sexuality might have happened while he was in Kirkwall? He wasn't a romance option so I don't know what you're using to base the idea on that the change could only have happened in the past two years.
I don't remember Cullen mentioning sexual attraction of any sort in DA2 and I've played and talked to him as both genders.
Well, David Gaider was asked about this on twitter. Not here to weigh in right now, just sharing some WoG:
https://twitter.com/...144584922066944
dash @goldenspine 7h7 hours ago@davidgaider okay but why wasnt cullen bisexual like what the hell was the thought process behind thatDavid Gaider @davidgaider 7h7 hours ago@goldenspine Characters have to justify being straight, I suppose?dash @goldenspine 7h7 hours ago@davidgaider nah man its just like it was already there why was it cutDavid Gaider @davidgaider 7h7 hours ago@goldenspine What was there already?dash @goldenspine 7h7 hours ago@davidgaider theres like dialogue up of a jealousy between like doran and m inquisitor & then cass and m inquisitor about cullenDavid Gaider @davidgaider 7h7 hours ago@goldenspine Well, gosh, then there's no question!dash @goldenspine 7h7 hours ago@davidgaider homie just like straight up like if its faked its whatever but if its not i just want to know why it was cutciaran @khrismmm 6h6 hours ago@goldenspine @davidgaider come just let us in on it, fake or no?David Gaider @davidgaider 6h6 hours ago@khrismmm @goldenspine I think I'm going back to not responding to questions like these.
Wow, that person is kind of terrible at asking questions.
pick your battles, bro.
So, does it seem like he didn't know it was there? Or is he just trolling the brat?
So, does it seem like he didn't know it was there? Or is he just trolling the brat?
Possibly both. Or rather, didn't know it was still accessible in the game.
Possibly both. Or rather, didn't know it was still accessible in the game.
Well, it really isn't accessible. One has to go hunting for it, like an archdemon.
I think they should just pull romance from their games completely. I really do. Most of them aren't that great. They have been declining since DAO which I felt had the best feel to them of all of them. You could truly immerse yourself in them where here? Not really even close to that from my perspective. And meanwhile, each game they release there is thread after thread of people who are upset by who is and is not an option. Beyond that it seems to bring up a lot all sorts of feelings that people have been dealing with related to their sexuality and orientation. It's just one big pandora's box that originally I think it gave a lot of people some satisfaction because they could in their game be bi or gay or straight and just enjoy it but since that original moment it has evolved into a pandora's box because now people don't like who they get or how the writer's create them. They don't like how things are handled and it becomes nothing but a huge debate all on every little detail. It's no longer that people can just simply enjoy the romance aspect. It's now all of us, me included, picking it apart. And it's a game. A GAME. This cannot be healthy. From some of the posts I've read it seems to just be bringing up more of the whole of what people have been dealing with their whole lives and I'm fairly certain the original intent was to give people a chance to be who they are when playing a romance.
I'm sure I'll get all sorts of ignores for this which I really don't care about. I just don't see how any of this helps anyone. People are mad because they don't like who their choices are. And yet, the romances aren't really that great. Certainly not anywhere near how good I thought they were for DAO. DA2 was just comical at how bad they were. This has some minor improvement to that but by minor I mean not much at all. Still closer to DA2 than DAO and yet people are upset by it all across the board. The first two weeks there were all these hate threads from hetero males. Now there are threads from the LGBT community that are bummed about changes or their choices or even how people are represented. If the relationships in the game only upset people or leave them feeling like their issues or wants/needs/concerns still aren't addressed then they aren't even serving their purpose, are they? They're just upsetting people which a game should probably avoid doing since games should equal fun.
This is tossing the baby out with the bathwater. The reason that a lot of people get so invested in the romances is that they allow the player to emotionally connect to the characters in the game. That's what good story-telling does, connect you to these characters and invest you in their stories. And video games allow for immersive story-telling, letting you have some freedom in the course of the story. So yes, people get invested in the romances. And the LGBT community gets a lot more invested here than anywhere else because this is representation. This is allowing the hero of the story to be someone who is not straight, and it's not a problem to be overcome, in narrative terms. It's there and it happens, and it's not a thing that needs commenting on.
Additionally, for the LGBT community, this is a chance at visibility. At a chance to be represented. There are TV shows and networks that run the risk of being cancelled and shut down for including even a character who attempts to explicitly say 'I am gay/bi/trans/anything that is not heterosexual and gender-conforming.' And so these games provide that. The reason that we get bent out of shape is that EVEN WITH what visibility comes from these games is that often times, content meant for us is first on the chopping block when time constraints happen. Like this. Maybe instead of having Solas romanceable at all, they could have given that time over to making the animations with male Inquisitors and Cullen work. Maybe they lock Cullen only to human Inquisitors, since Solas is for elven Inquisitors and devote the time from the elven female animations to the human male. There were possibilities other than making him heterosexual exclusive.
A lot of the anger and resentment comes out of how we have to struggle to find any representation most of the time, and now, with Cullen, we're hearing that we could have had more. I don't think anyone has said that they regret that Dorian and Iron Bull are there, and are options, but the fact that there was the possibility of more and that it was taken from us... Yeah, I think that it's absolutely justified that we're upset about this. I mean, yes, we get more from BioWare than we do others, sure, but when they're the about the only ones putting out this kind of content, yeah, it stings to hear this. It's very easy to get a feeling of how, even with everything, it's not treating you with the same equality, because YOU'RE the one who's getting cheated out of this content. It may not be a rational feeling, but it's still valid to feel that way.
Today has been about the hurt and pain from those who would have been more than happy to romance Cullen with a male Inquisitor. We're still processing, still offering kneejerk reactions, because we're still reacting. Over time, I'm sure this will die down. But since it's come out just within the last twenty-four hours, yeah, the ugly reactions are commonplace because we're feeling hurt that when they needed to cut, it was the content for LGBT players that was sacrificed. And this is a very common thing in the business.
Well, it really isn't accessible. One has to go hunting for it, like an archdemon.
It reminds me of the very dedicated data miners behind every MMO I've ever played.
It reminds me of the very dedicated data miners behind every MMO I've ever played.
Thank ra for some of them too man. If SWTOR's builds hadn't been datamined I'd been tight when 3.0 hit.
Well, David Gaider was asked about this on twitter. Not here to weigh in right now, just sharing some WoG:
https://twitter.com/...144584922066944
dash @goldenspine 7h7 hours ago@davidgaider okay but why wasnt cullen bisexual like what the hell was the thought process behind thatDavid Gaider @davidgaider 7h7 hours ago@goldenspine Characters have to justify being straight, I suppose?dash @goldenspine 7h7 hours ago@davidgaider nah man its just like it was already there why was it cutDavid Gaider @davidgaider 7h7 hours ago@goldenspine What was there already?dash @goldenspine 7h7 hours ago@davidgaider theres like dialogue up of a jealousy between like doran and m inquisitor & then cass and m inquisitor about cullenDavid Gaider @davidgaider 7h7 hours ago@goldenspine Well, gosh, then there's no question!dash @goldenspine 7h7 hours ago@davidgaider homie just like straight up like if its faked its whatever but if its not i just want to know why it was cut[snip]
Kid's not even being that rude, IMO, though maybe I just have a high tolerance for brattiness after teaching college students for 5 years. It's abrupt and colloquial, but no one's accusing Gaider of anything, just being a bit passive aggressive. Doesn't even snark back at Gaider.
I don't think they are going to restore this romance, even if you bring back Razikale and Lusacan and make them both the Archdemons and send them to BioWare's stronghold. I'm saying that because I don't want to rise up my hopes and... I want to make an occasion for the fate to do something against me, as always it does hahahaha! 
Thank ra for some of them too man. If SWTOR's builds hadn't been datamined I'd been tight when 3.0 hit.
Fair enough.
Kid's not even being that rude, IMO, though maybe I just have a high tolerance for brattiness after teaching college students for 5 years. It's abrupt and colloquial, but no one's accusing Gaider of anything, just being a bit passive aggressive. Doesn't even snark back at Gaider.
Even if you don't mean to sound passive aggressive, he has a very low tolerance for it. Just trust me on this one. 
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