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Is ME3 a satire on player choice?


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#51
Angry_Elcor

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 Having finished playing Inquisition, it is growing evident to me that -- while BioWare would prefer to portray the conflicts within their stories more on the mature and realistic sides of things -- they also understand that a large portion of their fanbase is really into the classic hero/villain stuff and oblige them the cheap thrills they like to keep them happy, that doing so is good for business. You see what happens when this power-trip is taken away.

 

It's "The David!" The Prophet has returned! Thank God our puerile minds will be rescued from foolish expectations of consistency, or player agency!


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#52
Ithurael

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Then someday they really should explain what tthe hell they were thinking and why they believed it was acceptable.

AFAIK...bio gave a very PR response to why they put the refuse ending in...

 

Now...having it triggered by dialog I have no issue with and I see no intended insult. However...having it triggered by shooting the little brat (which was done over and over again in a number of videos made by MrBtounge - and others - that was sent to bio to show them how bad the ending was) seems a bit...how do I say this...catty? While I don't think it was neccessarily meant as an insult and I like to think it was meant more as a fun 'Ha Ha Gotcha...we watched those videos' from bio it still comes off as a bit insulting. At least to me.



#53
dreamgazer

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Then someday they really should explain what tthe hell they were thinking and why they believed it was acceptable.


Because the game, the series, had been telling you from the beginning that it would be the result?

Fans wanted the option to refuse. They also wanted a "Reapers win" scenario. They got it.
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#54
themikefest

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Too bad we couldn't see the Normandy get destroyed in the refuse ending. 



#55
Iakus

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AFAIK...bio gave a very PR response to why they put the refuse ending in...

 

Now...having it triggered by dialog I have no issue with and I see no intended insult. However...having it triggered by shooting the little brat (which was done over and over again in a number of videos made by MrBtounge - and others - that was sent to bio to show them how bad the ending was) seems a bit...how do I say this...catty? While I don't think it was neccessarily meant as an insult and I like to think it was meant more as a fun 'Ha Ha Gotcha...we watched those videos' from bio it still comes off as a bit insulting. At least to me.

Heck that's Exhibit A for evidence for "they were trolling us"



#56
Iakus

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Because the game, the series, had been telling you from the beginning that it would be the result?
 

No.  If anything, the series has been telling us that for all their strength, they can be beaten.  and "without letting fear compromise who I am"

 

 

Fans wanted the option to refuse. They also wanted a "Reapers win" scenario. They got it.

Those were seperate requests.  Don't run them together into a single deal.  People specifically wanted option to refuse and let EMS alone decide victory and defeat and you know it.  As does Bioware, I believe.



#57
dreamgazer

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No.  If anything, the series has been telling us that for all their strength, they can be beaten.  and "without letting fear compromise who I am"


You do realize that there's a second option there, yes?

If anything, the series has been telling us that we'd only be able to defeat them with heavy sacrifices and reliance on the technology of previous civilizations, and that's precisely what happened.
 

Those were seperate requests.  Don't run them together into a single deal.  People specifically wanted option to refuse and let EMS alone decide victory and defeat and you know it.  As does Bioware, I believe.


People want lots of things. Doesn't mean it's right for the narrative. Refusal leading to a victory would have been even more of a bastardization of the story than the shipped ending.
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#58
Iakus

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You do realize that there's a second option there, yes?

If anything, the series has been telling us that we'd only be able to defeat them with heavy sacrifices and reliance on the technology of previous civilizations, and that's precisely what happened.

 

ME2 disagrees:

 

"We'll fight and win without it.  I won't let fear compromise who I am"

"Some say the Reapers are too powerful.  but when the Alpha Relay breaks, everyone will see we can fight the Reapers. And win."

 

ME1 disagrees:

 

"You're just a machine.  And machines can be broken"

"Shepard's right.  Humanity is ready to do its part.  United with the rest of the Council, we have the strength to overcome any obstacle.  When the Reapers come, we must stand side by side.  We must fight against them as one.  And together we can drive them back into dark space!"

 

Sure there's a "second option".  But if that option is canon, why are we given options at all?

 

And Refusal leading to victory would not have been any more (or less) ridiculous than the shipped ending. 



#59
dreamgazer

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ME1 disagrees:


Nothing in ME1 was possible without placing huge amounts of faith in vague alien technology. We're screwed without the Protheans.

And even with a DEM datafile and a magic link to Saren, you're forced to sacrifices several thousand lives. For ONE Reaper amongst the numbers that "darken the skies".
 

"You're just a machine.  And machines can be broken"


You're seriously going to use one of Shepard's most naive and doltish lines of dialogue in the series to your defense?

It's also prefaced by saying machines aren't really alive. How do you feel about that?

And it took space magic, a DEM device, and throwing tons of either alien or human lives under the bus to "break" Sovereign.
 

"Shepard's right.  Humanity is ready to do its part.  United with the rest of the Council, we have the strength to overcome any obstacle.  When the Reapers come, we must stand side by side.  We must fight against them as one.  And together we can drive them back into dark space!"


Where, exactly, does it state that refusing to use the Crucible would lead to victory in this statement? Times change. Context changes. ME2 happened. And ultimately, we did overcome this obstacle. These lines of dialogue rang far truer before the galaxy squandered several years of awareness on the "Ah yes, Reapers" agenda. The story made them unprepared, and they remained unprepared and incapable of that kind of conflict right up until the end of ME3. That's at the writers' whims, both Karpyshyn who flushed two years of preparation down the toilet with Lazarus and Walters who declared that all conventional warfare was nothing more than a "stalling tactic".
 

Sure there's a "second option".  But if that option is canon, why are we given options at all?


Why is fulfilling your canon more important than fulfilling others, which operate under a much more realistic grasp on the Reapers' potential?
 

And Refusal leading to victory would not have been any more (or less) ridiculous than the shipped ending.


Considering the millions (billions) of years of cycles who couldn't defeat the Reapers by conventional means, and considering the lack of preparation to take the Reapers on in a fistfight, I entirely disagree.
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#60
Iakus

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Nothing in ME1 was possible without placing huge amounts of faith in vague alien technology. We're screwed without the Protheans.

And even with a DEM datafile and a magic link to Saren, you're forced to sacrifices several thousand lives. For ONE Reaper amongst the numbers that "darken the skies".
 

You're seriously going to use one of Shepard's most naive and doltish lines of dialogue in the series to your defense?

It's also prefaced by saying machines aren't really alive. How do you feel about that?

And it took space magic, a DEM device, and throwing tons of either alien or human lives under the bus to "break" Sovereign.
 

Where, exactly, does it state that refusing to use the Crucible would lead to victory in this statement? Times change. Context changes. ME2 happened. And ultimately, we did overcome this obstacle. These lines of dialogue rang far truer before the galaxy squandered several years of awareness on the "Ah yes, Reapers" agenda. The story made them unprepared, and they remained unprepared and incapable of that kind of conflict right up until the end of ME3. That's at the writers' whims, both Karpyshyn who flushed two years of preparation down the toilet with Lazarus and Walters who declared that all conventional warfare was nothing more than a "stalling tactic".
 

Why is fulfilling your canon more important than fulfilling others, which operate under a much more realistic grasp on the Reapers' potential?
 

Considering the millions (billions) of years of cycles who couldn't defeat the Reapers by conventional means, and considering the lack of preparation to take the Reapers on in a fistfight, I entirely disagree.

Shepard's line is no more doltish than "You are bacteria" or "We will darken the skies of every world"  If Sovereign and Harbinger's trash-talking is acceptable as forshadowing, so is SHepard's

 

And yeah, several thousand people were killed to bring down one Reaper.  And oh yeah, A BIG FREAKING GETH FLEET THAT WAS RUNNING INTERFERENCE FOR IT

 

Are machines alive?  Depends on the point of view.  But living people can be broken too.  Just ask Thane

 

Yeah times change, context changes.  At the end of ME1 I'm sure they didn't have a stupid idea like the Crucible in mind at all.  And you won't get any argument from me that ME2 was a waste of time.  It's lack of planning like that which plays a large role in the shasrp decline of quality in the story and led to a lot of handwaving and wtf-ery like "organic energy" and "we can't beat them conventionally"

 

Why is fulfilling my canon so important?  Oh, I dunno.  How about because it was a canon that was encouraged in the first two games?  I mean, "Realistic grasp of the Reapers' potential?"  Their potential was exactly what the writers said they had at a given moment.  Even if they had to fold, spindle, and mutilate their own lore to accomplish it.

 

 

I mean, seriously, is jumping into a beam of green space magic to add you "organic energy" to every living being from the lowliest bacteria to the Reapers themselves, causing everyone and everything to achieve "the final evolution of life" and live together with peace, love and dope,  somehow less ridiculous than a rousing, if implausible military win?

 

Seriously?

 

I mean, I'd find Niftu Cal and Blasto saving us after Shepard passes out on the CItadel to be less implausible than that!



#61
dreamgazer

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Shepard's line is no more doltish than "You are bacteria" or "We will darken the skies of every world"  If Sovereign and Harbinger's trash-talking is acceptable as forshadowing, so is SHepard's


Uh, Shepard knows almost nothing about the Reapers at that point, except that they have immense success in wiping out civilizations. Not really comparable.
 

And yeah, several thousand people were killed to bring down one Reaper.  And oh yeah, A BIG FREAKING GETH FLEET THAT WAS RUNNING INTERFERENCE FOR IT


And? The Reapers have oodles of secondary flight squadrons who fulfill the same role.

Logic still stands: one Reaper out of thousands.
 

Are machines alive?  Depends on the point of view.  But living people can be broken too.  Just ask Thane


... okay?
 

Yeah times change, context changes.  At the end of ME1 I'm sure they didn't have a stupid idea like the Crucible in mind at all.


Wouldn't be so sure of that, since Anderson even mentions a Prothean superweapon.  
 

And you won't get any argument from me that ME2 was a waste of time.  It's lack of planning like that which plays a large role in the shasrp decline of quality in the story and led to a lot of handwaving and wtf-ery like "organic energy" and "we can't beat them conventionally"


Please, that hand-waving and WTF-ery existed in ME1, too.
 

Why is fulfilling my canon so important?  Oh, I dunno.  How about because it was a canon that was encouraged in the first two games?  I mean, "Realistic grasp of the Reapers' potential?"  Their potential was exactly what the writers said they had at a given moment.  Even if they had to fold, spindle, and mutilate their own lore to accomplish it.


"Darken the skies of every world". Sorry, but vast numbers have always been part of the lore.
 
 

I mean, seriously, is jumping into a beam of green space magic to add you "organic energy" to every living being from the lowliest bacteria to the Reapers themselves, causing everyone and everything to achieve "the final evolution of life" and live together with peace, love and dope,  somehow less ridiculous than a rousing, if implausible military win?

 
Seriously?


Under these conditions and given the lore's established perception of overloading synthetics, controlling synthetics, nanites, gene manipulation and relay tech? Yup.
 

I mean, I'd find Niftu Cal and Blasto saving us after Shepard passes out on the CItadel to be less implausible than that!


Those options still make much more sense than refuse-conventional victory against the Reapers.
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#62
Iakus

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Uh, Shepard knows almost nothing about the Reapers at that point. It's not remotely comparable.
 

And? The Reapers have oodles of secondary flight squadrons who fulfill the same role.

Logic still stands: one Reaper out of thousands.
 

... okay?
 

Wouldn't be so sure of that, since Anderson even mentions a Prothean superweapon.  
 

Please, that hand-waving and WTF-ery existed in ME1, too.
 

"Darken the skies of every world". Sorry, but vast numbers have always been part of the lore.
 
 

Under these conditions and given the lore's established perception of overloading synthetics, controlling synthetics, nanites, gene manipulation and relay tech? Yup.


Those options still make much more sense than refuse-conventional victory against the Reapers.

Why does knowledge have to factor into trash-talking?  Sovereign's the only Reaper in the galaxy right now.  Going "Wait til my buddies get here" isn't necessarily any more serious a threat than Kai Leng's email.

 

In which case you are no longer dealing with just one Reaper.

 

Biological, synthetic, we all break

 

as you say, "...and?"  

 

Yeah and they had two games to clear that up.  Instead we just got more.

 

No, vast numbers have always been part of Sovereign's trash-talking.

 

You have a far more elastic imagination than I do.  Me, I prefer Magic A is Magic A.  And if I do have to turn my brain off to enjoy something, I'd prefer it be for something I'd enjoy, not feel like sh*t about afterwards.

 

And finally.  That's like, your opinion, man.



#63
dreamgazer

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Why does knowledge have to factor into trash-talking?  Sovereign's the only Reaper in the galaxy right now.  Going "Wait til my buddies get here" isn't necessarily any more serious a threat than Kai Leng's email.


Except for the fact that the Reapers have had success on a massive scale, of course.
 

In which case you are no longer dealing with just one Reaper.


Sure, you are. One Reaper and cronies = One Reaper and cronies.
 

Biological, synthetic, we all break


We're not all, at the very least, dozens of millions of years old and endured countless purges of civilizations.
 

as you say, "...and?"


Pretty simple, isn't it? Anderson mentions a Prothean superweapon. Therefore, a Prothean superweapon was somewhere in their minds early on, and very well could have always been the answer to eliminating the Reapers. From the minds responsible for contrived brain filters and the Citadel DEM datafile? I certainly don't discount the idea.
 

Yeah and they had two games to clear that up.  Instead we just got more.


Or, more accurately, you got three games of more of the same semi-soft science-fiction.
 

No, vast numbers have always been part of Sovereign's trash-talking.


No, vast numbers have always been responsible for wiping out advanced civilizations, trash talk or not.
 

You have a far more elastic imagination than I do.  Me, I prefer Magic A is Magic A.  And if I do have to turn my brain off to enjoy something, I'd prefer it be for something I'd enjoy, not feel like sh*t about afterwards.


ME1 doesn't even meet that "magic" criteria. And I'd rather be challenged than have my ego stroked by some disposable sense of enjoyment.
 

And finally.  That's like, your opinion, man.


Right back atcha.

#64
rapscallioness

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Nah, I don't think ME3 was meant to be any kind of satire on player choice. Although, the last crucible chamber choice reminded me of a giant dialogue wheel in the sky. But I think they were playing t straight.

 

The choices in ME3 like the genophage and the geth/quarian conflict were a long time coming, and did need to be wrapped up.

 

DAI was definitely a power fantasy. I prefer a more personal focus myself, but I was willing to play along with their chosen approach this time--and I had a fun time with it.

 

Tbh, I'm not sure if players necessarily want an over the top power fantasy game. I don;t think that's what the fantasy really is. I think the fantasy is actually more about having the ability and opportunity to simply make a difference. Especially when you look around at a world that seems to be unraveling at the seams.

 

Awful things happening, and you want to help. You want to make a difference somehow, but...you can feel very small in the face of so much.

 

So, I think the fantasy is really about being able to make a difference at least in this fictional world. I also think that was behind some of the complaints about DA2. You could not make a difference in it. Kirkwall just ran over you like freight train. I loved DA2, but I can understand where some people are coming from with that.

 

Mind you, I do enjoy a few choice moments of Boss-ness sprinkled in my games. lol! But those moments are not necessarily tied to....being the only one that can save the world, or having a castle. Those moments can simply be...telling some mouthy Krogan merc that he talks too much and setting him fire. heh heh. That scene still makes me chuckle.



#65
teh DRUMPf!!

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Then perhaps you should pay more attention to what I write, and not just lump everyone into a single "hater" category.

 

 

 

Perhaps you should pay attention to you. At the top of this page is a condescending post directed at me and my views, but since I am not in agreement with you, you have not said anything about that. In fact, you've actually given it your liking (this after decrying my post ITT for being... condescending)!

 

All this "holier than thou" nonsense of yours is posturing. An act. You may be fooling others, and likely yourself, but you're not fooling me.

 

 

 

Ahem:

 
None of what you bolded was referring to Mass Effect, much less ME3's ending. Unless you can claim to read my mind, your conclusion is a leap.


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#66
Iakus

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Perhaps you should pay attention to you. At the top of this page is a condescending post directed at me and my views, but since I am not in agreement with you, you have not said anything about that. In fact, you've actually given it your liking (this after decrying my post ITT for being... condescending)!

 

 

 

Yeah I liked it because it was calling you on your BS concerning your analysis of the intelligence and maturity of players who didn't like the endings.  And Bioware's  so called "catering"  to them in DAI.

 

Not your opinion of ME3.  

 

Not very mature of me, I'll admit.  But I did like the post, so...I liked the post  :whistle:

 

 

All this "holier than thou" nonsense of yours is posturing. An act. You may be fooling others, and likely yourself, but you're not fooling me.

If you don't like my posts, feel free to put me on ignore.  

 

 

 None of what you bolded was referring to Mass Effect, much less ME3's ending. Unless you can claim to read my mind, your conclusion is a leap.

 

Everything in that freaking quote was about Bioware and its fans.  And was clearly a comparison between ME3's ending and DAI's ending.  And how one influenced the other.



#67
teh DRUMPf!!

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Yeah I liked it because it was calling you on your BS concerning your analysis of the intelligence and maturity of players who didn't like the endings.  And Bioware's  so called "catering"  to them in DAI.
 
Not your opinion of ME3.
 
Not very mature of me, I'll admit.  But I did like the post, so...I liked the post  :whistle:

What you liked was not even an articulate post with any attempt at explanation of how/why what I had said is in any way wrong. It was nothing of substance other than flaming. The only "BS" here is yours, what with the constant preaching of that which you do not practice, and then trying to weasel your way out of it when exposed rather than owning up. Not like this is the first time I am seeing that.

 

"Not very mature," you admit. WOW! How big of you...

 

Try: "Wildly hypocritical."

 

 

If you don't like my posts, feel free to put me on ignore.

 

That you are encouraging me to ignore-list you says everything.

 

Everything in that freaking quote was about Bioware and its fans.  And was clearly a comparison between ME3's ending and DAI's ending.  And how one influenced the other.

 
No, I was not comparing their endings as you think I "clearly" am. In fact, I distinctly remember discussing what it was about DA:I's ending I did not care for and you were there. It was not because it's a juvenile power fantasy (it's not), just bland and utterly unimaginative. Starting to remember now? I am sure that thread is not far down this page or is on one of the next two.

 

However, there were several other places in that game where players are let to get carried away and frankly it is laughable to see how many folks eat that stuff up (one comes to associate certain names with tactics that cater to them). You had certain villains who existed for the sole purpose of being assclowns because some players are really into the 1D hero/villain portrayal, you had the ability to take certain extreme stances without any consequence because, well, that would upset the people holding them and BW knew it. Lastly, you have people complaining that they cannot be more extreme yet towards various NPCs, hence "you see what happens when the power-trip is taken away from them" (they whine, endlessly).

You, however, read something that was not there and freaked out. It's okay, just admit it and move on.


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#68
Iakus

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No, I was not comparing their endings as you think I "clearly" am. In fact, I distinctly remember discussing what it was about DA:I's ending I did not care for and you were there. It was not because it's a juvenile power fantasy (it's not), just bland and utterly unimaginative. Starting to remember now? I am sure that thread is not far down this page or is on one of the next two.

 

However, there were several other places in that game where players are let to get carried away and frankly it is laughable to see how many folks eat that stuff up (one comes to associate certain names with tactics that cater to them). You had certain villains who existed for the sole purpose of being assclowns because some players are really into the 1D hero/villain portrayal, you had the ability to take certain extreme stances without any consequence because, well, that would upset the people holding them and BW knew it. Lastly, you have people complaining that they cannot be more extreme yet towards various NPCs, hence "you see what happens when the power-trip is taken away from them" (they whine, endlessly).

You, however, read something that was not there and freaked out. It's okay, just admit it and move on.

I'm just going to ignore the rest of the post, which was nothing more than flaming and thread derailment, and just respond to this.

 

Everything you've complained about here, villains, extreme stances, etc, exists in ME3.  Heck the entire ME series.  I'd go so far as to say ME3 has more of this stuff than DAI has:  assclown villains (Udina, Kai Leng) extreme stances (pretty much every Renegade interrupt ever) complaints about not being able to be more extreme towards NPCs (the Council, Ash/Kaidan standoff, Han'Gerrel, EDI )

 

And amusingly, none of that is stuff people are complaining about for either game.  Not too loudly, anyway.  What people do complain about, and have been doing so for quite some time, is ME3's ending.  Which is, of course, what this thread was about.  

 

So when you complain about Bioware catering to immature gamers, power fantasies, and cheap thrills in an ending thread when you're complaining about stuff that actually exists in greater quantity in ME3 than in DAI anyway, what is one supposed to think?

 

And to drag the topic back on course:  I repeat what I said much earlier:  ME3's ending is a joke, not a satire.



#69
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"Darken the skies of every world". Sorry, but vast numbers have always been part of the lore.

 

 vast numbers have always been responsible for wiping out advanced civilizations, trash talk or not.

 

No, because Vigil tells us a different story. The Reapers conquer the Citadel first, shut off the mass relays which makes sure all main communications and transportations are completely cut, thus ensuring that each star system is isolated and cut off from others. World by world, system by system, every planet would then be taken over. The Reapers also relied on their indoctrinated population as an extra army to aid in their invasions.

If their numbers “darken the sky of every world” then they wouldn't be doing this. It took the Reapers centuries to defeat and conquer the Protheans. Obviously, what Sovereign is saying is not true. Either it’s trash talking like Harbinger or it perhaps meant something different when saying that line.

 

Fans wanted the option to refuse. They also wanted a "Reapers win" scenario. They got it.

 

No. Well, at least not in the way you’re implying.

 

Fans wanted an option to refuse and win. They didn’t get it.

Fans wanted a “Reapers win” scenario where the Reapers win as a result of the player’s failed accomplishments and because of making the wrong choices throughout the whole trilogy. They didn’t get this either. 


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#70
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It's "The David!" The Prophet has returned! Thank God our puerile minds will be rescued from foolish expectations of consistency, or player agency!

 

No, HYR has been around a while. The blob got into fights with him if I remember correctly.


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#71
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Ooh DA:I's ending!!!

 

The thing I didn't like was, like DA:II, it was kind of insubstantial. It was good, it just could have been fleshed out a bit more. A lot more. 



#72
Angry_Elcor

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Perhaps you should pay attention to you. At the top of this page is a condescending post directed at me and my views

 

I'm only greeting the great return of the Prophet The David™! I am but a mere mortal, too dumb to agree with you. You must teach me your ways of intellectual superiority, so that I can ascend from the masses to the mountain of smart-goodness like you!



#73
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No.  If anything, the series has been telling us that for all their strength, they can be beaten.  and "without letting fear compromise who I am"

 

Those were seperate requests.  Don't run them together into a single deal.  People specifically wanted option to refuse and let EMS alone decide victory and defeat and you know it.  As does Bioware, I believe.

 

Nope to the first statement. The quote was just boastful positioning. It's quite an empty statement, as well it should be. The Reapers are far too powerful to be beaten with anything short of a deus ex machina. If you wanted something else, you wanted a different game from Mass Effect. If you're too weak to accept that you have to do whatever it takes to win, to survive, then you shouldn't be the one making the the choices in the first place. You don't have the strength or the steel to do it. 

 

BioWare did know it. Despite my own distaste for the ending however, that doesn't mean that the people asking for it were right. There should be no chance, under any circumstance, for anyone to be able to beat the Reapers without using the Crucible. No number of EMS would be enough to fight the Reapers unless you magicked a Star Forge from KotOR and built an endless armada of dreadnoughts. And if that happened, I guarantee it would be a much worse ending than what we got. You want victory? Destroy. Deal with the consequences. You can synthesize and control if you like too if it floats your boat, though I hesitate to call either of them a win for the galaxy. Otherwise, end of story. As it is, as it should be. BioWare was absolutely in the right to have any non-crucible ending be a failure. You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir. 



#74
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No, because Vigil tells us a different story. The Reapers conquer the Citadel first, shut off the mass relays which makes sure all main communications and transportations are completely cut, thus ensuring that each star system is isolated and cut off from others. World by world, system by system, every planet would then be taken over. The Reapers also relied on their indoctrinated population as an extra army to aid in their invasions.

If their numbers “darken the sky of every world” then they wouldn't be doing this. It took the Reapers centuries to defeat and conquer the Protheans. Obviously, what Sovereign is saying is not true. Either it’s trash talking like Harbinger or it perhaps meant something different when saying that line.

 

That said, the Reapers didn't have that luxury with the current cycle, and they still were able to simultaneously assault dozens of planetary systems (including the homeworlds) of several species and overwhelm without too much trouble. The Turians, though putting up a strong defense, knew their world was doomed. It was an attrition war and the Reapers had them outgunned and outnumbered. While Sovereign's statement of 'we will darken the sky of every world with our numbers' was likely hyperbole, they still had the capability to take on all the major races of the galaxy on their own on dozens of worlds and still be hilariously curbstomping them. I think the Reapers, as machines, were more pliable to efficiency. They could take their time and be as thorough as they required. As well, to an extent, what Javik says contradicts (and possibly retcons) what Vigil says in ME1 (yet another establishment of BW disregarding established lore for their own writing purposes while invalidating the entire plot of ME1, but whatever). Javik implies that he once led his own team in a ship across the galaxy to fight the Reapers, and the Protheans had the Crucible built (which would require a lot more resources than what any isolated system cut off from all the others in both travel and communications could achieve). As well, I'd imagine that the Protheans had some kind of protocol or action that was designed to buy as much time as possible from the Reapers. Imagine the Cole Protocol from Halo, a directive established by the humans to prevent the Covenant from finding Earth or any other human colonies. 

 

In practice, it was intended to prevent Covenant's retrieval of data that contained the location of Earth; it forbade retreating vessels from setting a direct slipspace course toward any human population center, as the Covenant were able to track slipspace travel vectors and calculate the evacuating ship's destination. The policy also stated that to prevent capture, any military or civilian vessel, in the event of an emergency evacuation, was to self-destruct, after wiping all data matrices, to prevent the advance of the Covenant.

The Cole Protocol Article 1 To safeguard and protect the Inner Colonies and Earth, all UNSC vessels or stations must not be captured with intact navigation databases that may lead Covenant forces to human civilian population centers. If any Covenant forces are detected: 1. Activate selective purge of databases on all ship-based and planetary data networks. 2. Initiate triple-screen check to ensure all data has been erased and all backups neutralized. 3. Execute viral data scavengers (Download from UNSCTTP://EPWW:COLEPROTOCOL/Virtualscav/fbr.091) 4. If retreating from Covenant forces, all ships must enter Slipstream space with randomized vectors NOT directed toward Earth, the Inner Colonies, or any other human population center.[note 1] 5. In case of imminent capture by Covenant forces and boarders, all UNSC ships MUST self-destruct. Violation of this directive will be considered an act of TREASON and pursuant to UNSC Military law articles JAG 845-P and JAG 7556-L, such violations are punishable by life imprisonment or execution.

 

It wouldn't be a stretch to imagine that, with the updated Prothean/Reaper war scenario provided by ME3 over the ME1 lore, the Protheans might have enacted some kind of directive similar to the CP (since it seems that BW also did away with the lore concerning the Reapers knowing the exact populations and locations of Prothean worlds).

 

On that note, I'm inclined to believe Sovereign meant something else with its speech.

 

No. Well, at least not in the way you’re implying.

 

Fans wanted an option to refuse and win. They didn’t get it.

Fans wanted a “Reapers win” scenario where the Reapers win as a result of the player’s failed accomplishments and because of making the wrong choices throughout the whole trilogy. They didn’t get this either.

 

True, but that's the way BW interpreted it (since the fans never specifically separated the two circumstances.

 

I disagree entirely with the idea behind a refusal victory. Not because I inherently disagree with the idea, but because in universe, you've already blown all your resources on the Crucible, and there's no way that the combined forces of what you have are going to take on an estimated 20,000 Reapers (the big ones) any of which dwarf the largest non-Reaper ship by leaps and bounds. It simply goes against the lore of the series and the Reapers to suddenly have the galactic fleets, all of whom were getting smacked around harder than a titan by a jaeger, find the power of heroism and win the day. Not saying it's you since you aren't advocating it, but that line of thinking is just so... David.

 

But yes, the second is definitely true; I am indeed for a bias in the games. I think anyone who played a full paragon or full renegade (or anyone who didn't play within certain bounds of characterization) deserved nothing but ultimate failure. That said, I know my opinion is a rather extremist one on that regard. Thus, I would say that you are correct though. We wanted to have the cumulative decisions count for victory or failure, and we ultimately didn't get that.



#75
Iakus

Iakus
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Nope to the first statement. The quote was just boastful positioning. It's quite an empty statement, as well it should be. The Reapers are far too powerful to be beaten with anything short of a deus ex machina. If you wanted something else, you wanted a different game from Mass Effect. If you're too weak to accept that you have to do whatever it takes to win, to survive, then you shouldn't be the one making the the choices in the first place. You don't have the strength or the steel to do it. 

 

BioWare did know it. Despite my own distaste for the ending however, that doesn't mean that the people asking for it were right. There should be no chance, under any circumstance, for anyone to be able to beat the Reapers without using the Crucible. No number of EMS would be enough to fight the Reapers unless you magicked a Star Forge from KotOR and built an endless armada of dreadnoughts. And if that happened, I guarantee it would be a much worse ending than what we got. You want victory? Destroy. Deal with the consequences. You can synthesize and control if you like too if it floats your boat, though I hesitate to call either of them a win for the galaxy. Otherwise, end of story. As it is, as it should be. BioWare was absolutely in the right to have any non-crucible ending be a failure. You get nothing. You lose. Good day, sir. 

 

It's as much "boastful positioning" as Sovereign's "darken the sky of every world"  which at the time had as much substance to it.

 

And while I agree a deus ex machina was, sadly required, it was mainly due to the complete waste of time ME2 was and Bioware building up the Reapers to godlike power in ME3.  To the point of removing weaknesses the Reapers previously had.

 

And the Paragon path (which was fully endorsed, as much as the Renegade path) was the route of "the ends don't always justify the means"  See the quote in my sig.  Yeah, I know Renegades got screwed due to some choices in the trilogy.  But ME3's end choice turns the Paragon path into an utter waste of three games.

 

As to a Star Forge, clearly Cerberus had one.  All we'd need to do is find and secure it.   <_< But the point being.  There should have been other paths than Red, Green, and Blue.  (or get trolled by Starbrat)