61 réponses à ce sujet

[Storm_Changer]

Edit: All use of the term "bug" is relating to game-breaking bugs in particular. 

 

I see this alot and felt the need to point this out.

Alot of people are trying to dissuade other users from posting negatively on the basis that it is not "constructive criticism." Alot of this is directed at users who are angry about bugs. Infact almost all of it is, as far as I've seen. 

You cannot provide constructive criticism regarding an in-game bug. This is because by its nature, you are not making a suggestion, You are making a demand. Bugs are unacceptable in a finished game, I have experienced a bug(s), this is therefore unacceptable, fix the bug please. [Or words to that effect.]

That is not a suggestion - as it is not optional. Unless Bioware intend to retract and re-work all marketing + provide refunds for users who request it, then this is the status quo: This game is being sold as a complete game, and has been marketed as having functioning multi-player. It is therefore not something to be discussed or debated - there is an obligation to fix the bugs that users are experiencing, an obligation is fundamentally different from a suggestion, as a suggestion is optional and can be debated and argued. 

That isn't the only reason this appliance of constructive criticism is misguided, though. You are criticising a bug - this is true. But it is not your obligation to provide constructive criticism on an element that by definition should not be present in a completed game. Moreover, unless you are a developer yourself, or someone with extensive technical knowledge, it is doubtful you could provide any constructive element to this critique beyond pointing out what you believe caused the bug in the first place, which is very often put in any given users rant anyway. 

 

So to those of you who believe we shouldn't be discussing the bugs in the multi-player on the basis of non-constructive criticism, you are misguided. Does everybody want a pleasant community and forum? Yes. But equally so, blaming users for venting about very-real issues, rather than blaming the problems themselves, is misguided. And telling users to be silent is also misguided, as if nobody said anything then nobody - including lurkers who may well be considering buying the game - would know the state the multi-player is in. 

 

Ultimately if we had a direct feed of information from the dev's regarding the bug fixes then users would be less inclined to criticise the bugs in the first instance. But that's another discussion for another thread, really. 



 

[Cyonan]

One thing to note is that while a developer should try to fix the major bugs in something it's not feasible to eliminate anywhere close to 100% of them. If that's unacceptable to you, you're gonna have a bad time with computers in general.

 

In general though it doesn't need to be criticism or a demand. You can simply make a bug report and say "hey this is going on". In either case, criticizing or requesting that the bug be fixed isn't exactly unreasonable in itself and shouldn't be discouraged. I imagine we all want the game to be improved here.

 

It is worth remembering however that there is a difference between asking for a bug fix and telling BioWare how to do their job, which generally makes you come off as somebody who doesn't know what the hell they're talking about at best.

 

That and these forums have issues with the whole "constructive" part of things at times =P

[Storm_Changer]

One thing to note is that while a developer should try to fix the major bugs in something it's not feasible to eliminate anywhere close to 100% of them. If that's unacceptable to you, you're gonna have a bad time with computers in general.

 

In general though it doesn't need to be criticism or a demand. You can simply make a bug report and say "hey this is going on". In either case, criticizing or requesting that the bug be fixed isn't exactly unreasonable in itself and shouldn't be discouraged. I imagine we all want the game to be improved here.

 

It is worth remembering however that there is a difference between asking for a bug fix and telling BioWare how to do their job, which generally makes you come off as somebody who doesn't know what the hell they're talking about at best.

 

That and these forums have issues with the whole "constructive" part of things at times =P

 

Of course, but any major and especially game-breaking bugs should be dealt with as quickly as possible, as these are the bugs that contend with the marketing of the game. Thus, the obligation. 

 

It does need both criticism and demand - otherwise the dev's would either not think it's a massive issue - which it absolutely is - or think it's limited to a small number of players. By contesting both of the above the developer is then forced to acknowledge that this is an issue on their side - which then puts them under obligation [linked to above.] 

 

A point I feel you've missed is that you do not "ask" Bioware to fix bugs. A bug should not be in a game - so you are not making a request that can be rejected or approved. They are under obligation - you are demanding the fix, because that is your right as a consumer in the context of a finished game. By definition then, you will always be "telling" Bioware, not asking. But whilst that is technically telling them to do their job, it is not an unreasonable demand in the context of the game being advertised as finished. If the demands were unreasonable then it would obviously be different, but I've not seen any unreasonable demands. [fix the bugs, at least let us know where you're up to as it's been a month ect are entirely reasonable.] 

 

I feel the main reason these forums feel negative and non-constructive is because the MP is fundamentally broken on multiple accounts. Perhaps when they fix the game-breaking bugs - of which there are many - things will get abit more constructive as we'll be able to discuss content suggestions instead.

[Cyonan]

Of course, but any major and especially game-breaking bugs should be dealt with as quickly as possible, as these are the bugs that contend with the marketing of the game. Thus, the obligation. 

 

It does need both criticism and demand - otherwise the dev's would either not think it's a massive issue - which it absolutely is - or think it's limited to a small number of players. By contesting both of the above the developer is then forced to acknowledge that this is an issue on their side - which then puts them under obligation [linked to above.] 

 

A point I feel you've missed is that you do not "ask" Bioware to fix bugs. A bug should not be in a game - so you are not making a request that can be rejected or approved. They are under obligation - you are demanding the fix, because that is your right as a consumer in the context of a finished game. By definition then, you will always be "telling" Bioware, not asking. But whilst that is technically telling them to do their job, it is not an unreasonable demand in the context of the game being advertised as finished. If the demands were unreasonable then it would obviously be different, but I've not seen any unreasonable demands. [fix the bugs, at least let us know where you're up to as it's been a month ect are entirely reasonable.] 

 

I feel the main reason these forums feel negative and non-constructive is because the MP is fundamentally broken on multiple accounts. Perhaps when they fix the game-breaking bugs - of which there are many - things will get abit more constructive as we'll be able to discuss content suggestions instead.

 

If the ME3MP forums are any indication people will continue making posts about every little thing and acting like 10 minutes on Wikipedia makes them programming experts =P

 

If I ever go through the code of Inquisition like I did ME3(As I legitimately am a programmer) then I doubt I'll make a thread with a detailed report about it here. I'll probably just PM the specifics to a BioWare employee to let them know what's going on.

 

I suppose the main reason I don't like the wording of demand and obligation is that it sounds like you're saying BioWare is required to fix every single bug in the game, which is not feasible of any software that is more complicated than "Hello world" and I don't think it's that big of a deal if they don't fix the really small ones.

 

The game breaking stuff though? Yeah, that's not unreasonable to demand a fix for.

[Yumi]

Demanding a fix is fine.
Seeing 50 threads demanding that fix is fine.


The fact that 48 of those 50 threads turn into an argument and general circle jerk of negativity is not.

[Storm_Changer]

If the ME3MP forums are any indication people will continue making posts about every little thing and acting like 10 minutes on Wikipedia makes them programming experts =P

 

If I ever go through the code of Inquisition like I did ME3(As I legitimately am a programmer) then I doubt I'll make a thread with a detailed report about it here. I'll probably just PM the specifics to a BioWare employee to let them know what's going on.

 

I suppose the main reason I don't like the wording of demand and obligation is that it sounds like you're saying BioWare is required to fix every single bug in the game, which is not feasible of any software that is more complicated than "Hello world" and I don't think it's that big of a deal if they don't fix the really small ones.

 

The game breaking stuff though? Yeah, that's not unreasonable to demand a fix for.

 

I agree with that.  

 

Obviously it's not feasible in most situations to fix all bugs - and there's plenty of bugs of no consequence [minor graphical bugs, minor one-off glitches ect that honestly don't matter.] I should clarify that myself - and pretty much every user the argument of constructive criticism is leveled at that I've seen - are demanding fixes for game-breaking bugs. Bugs like no-key, multitudes of disconnects when you have a good connection, random crashes on good computers ect. 

[Storm_Changer]

Demanding a fix is fine.
Seeing 50 threads demanding that fix is fine.


The fact that 48 of those 50 threads turn into an argument and general circle jerk of negativity is not.

 

It's just the nature of forums that users who have experienced the same things are drawn together. It's just as damaging to over-exaggerate issues as it is to pretend they don't exist at all though. What I've seen is negative threads that then get filled with apologists for Bioware - who largely ignore the fact that the MP is broken and focus on trying to silence the forum users. That isn't okay, it's misguided. And that's a part of what OP is about. 

 

Because ultimately if you want a positive community you do not ignore game-breaking bugs that lead to frustration in the first place and demand users ignore them to, you instead get them fixed so the community can move past it. 

[-PenguinFetish-]

Demanding a fix is fine.
Seeing 50 threads demanding that fix is fine.


The fact that 48 of those 50 threads turn into an argument and general circle jerk of negativity is not.

 

This would not happen if there was good moderation here.

[Storm_Changer]

This would not happen if there was good moderation here.

 

Again, you're attacking the surface problem instead of the cause - as I iterated in the OP. There wouldn't be anywhere near as much negativity if the fundamental experience wasn't riddled with game-breaking bugs. Censoring users based on valid concerns, as long as they are expressed appropriately, is the wrong thing to do. Good communities are open to all comments within reason. 

[Yumi]

Within reason.

Whose definition of reason is correct?

We passed reasonable a long time ago in my opinion, guess yours is different.


As Pengin I totally agree. We are in desperate need of moderation. Oh wait, the "reasonable" people will call that censorship.

[Storm_Changer]

Within reason.

Whose definition of reason is correct?

We passed reasonable a long time ago in my opinion, guess yours is different.


As Pengin I totally agree. We are in desperate need of moderation. Oh wait, the "reasonable" people will call that censorship.

 

Criticism or anger, such as that directed at game-breaking bugs to such a degree that a majority of your games cannot be finished, is well within reason. It still remains within reason for there to be hundreds or even thousands of users discussing it. Why? Because game breaking bugs fundamentally should not be in a finished product, let alone to such a staggering degree. Of course some slip through the net - but the product is sold as finished, so consumers can rightly be upset when they experience even one game-breaking bug rarely, let alone many frequently. 

 

Silencing legitimate criticism / anger over valid concerns is indeed censoring. The issue is with the producer, not the consumer, who has mis-sold their product as complete and functioning when it is not. Silencing the consumer rather than helping to lobby for the producer to make amends is entirely mis-placed, as the source of disgruntlement is valid and will not disappear until the bugs themselves are removed. Consider this within the context of any exchange of goods, and you will understand what I mean. 

 

By all means, keeping things to a degree of civility is fine. But users must absolutely be allowed to vent valid frustrations with the broken elements of the game. Negativity is permissible and even justified when the source is valid - which in this case it very much is. And silencing users with these valid concerns would only exacerbate the problem, rather than quell it. Also, making users feel unable to speak honestly is not conducive to a good community, for obvious reasons. 

[tbxvividos]

I'd like to see some documented evidence proving that by increasing the number of whining threads on a public forum, you decrease the time it takes a developer to implement fixes for said problems that they're already aware of and working on.

I dare you to try.

[Storm_Changer]

I'd like to see some documented evidence proving that by increasing the number of whining threads on a public forum, you decrease the time it takes a developer to implement fixes for said problems that they're already aware of and working on.

I dare you to try.

 

It's ironic that you're arguing for less whining and negativity whilst coming across as aggressive and abrasive yourself. That evidence does not exist, nor does evidence exist to the contrary. Your entire point is based on an irrelevant appeal to something that isn't even a focal point of the OP. 

 

But if you'd actually read numerous inputs - like Andy's posts, he mentioned that he only experienced the key bug 1/12 times, it comes across in his post as if it isn't a major issue, when it obviously is. 

 

Of course there's obviously value in not being censored when you have valid concerns, which is a point you seem to have missed entirely. 

[Draining Dragon]

I always find it strange how so many people assume that positive feedback is inherently better than negative feedback.

Strictly positive feedback is just as destructive as strictly negative feedback. Why do people not realize this?

[Storm_Changer]

I always find it strange how so many people assume that positive feedback is inherently better than negative feedback.

Strictly positive feedback is just as destructive as strictly negative feedback. Why do people not realize this?

 

I honestly don't understand it either. Obviously some posters come across as more negative/positive than others, as threads are focused discussions on particular elements of the game. But that said, going OTT either way means you lose whatever point you were trying to make in the process, and positive feedback very rarely, if ever, highlights points to improve. 

[Andy Kempling]

But if you'd actually read numerous inputs - like Andy's posts, he mentioned that he only experienced the key bug 1/12 times, it comes across in his post as if it isn't a major issue, when it obviously is. 

 

This kind of misunderstanding is precisely why I try to be choosy about when and what to post.  Food for thought.

[tbxvividos]

Good luck getting our resident crybaby to understand that Andy.

He would rather rant nonstop and convince himself he's important than actually eat any thought food.

[Never_Forget_Legaia]

Hi Andy! I hope this is a good thread to post in. My group experienced the missing key bug on 9/12 of our games tonight, with the last 5 hitting that bug in a row. I really like this game and multiplayer, so just posting that we were indeed running into it onto the PS4 after installing the new patch. We even attempted to save faction kills last, since we heard it might be a problem with animal kills, but neither made a difference. Thanks for any help!

 

*Edit: meant to say after installing the new expansion, the one that gives the areas or whatever.

[Storm_Changer]

This kind of misunderstanding is precisely why I try to be choosy about when and what to post.  Food for thought.

Perhaps you should be more careful about what you post, as it's incredibly easy to interpret both of these negatively:
 

I've played a dozen games since the DLC released and I've seen it happen personally only once.  Forcing a host migration did reset the match to a state where we could progress through the match.  However, the other 11 matches did work without any issue.  I'm wondering what I'm doing different if other people are getting it with a remarkably higher frequency.

There is no "next hotfix" at the moment.  I'll ask Allan about whether the existing message still needs to exist, as it seems to be confusing some people.

But then, this misunderstanding wouldn't exist in the first place if one of you would just make a sticky explaining the situation, rather than making statements that we have to piece together to try and make sense of what's going on. 

[knownastherat]

This kind of misunderstanding is precisely why I try to be choosy about when and what to post.  Food for thought.

 

First let me say that I did not understand it the way it was interpreted here, but fair enough, misunderstandings are part of human communication.

 

Secondly, I do understand such reason/logic. We have saying going like .. who does nothing breaks nothing.

 

Lastly, if there is a chance that some people will misunderstand and some people will not and those who will not will appreciate your posts because they are physical evidence of what perhaps everyone expects - you to care about your game - is it not worth the risk of misunderstanding? 

[Kel_Shando]

Ok Andy but saying you only experienced the bug 1 time in 5 or 6 game play sessions is ignoring the fact or in the least giving the impression of one not believing or under valuing when players says its happening all the time. You posted something similar to this when I did a post about the door bug. Well I'm pretty sure I "play" this game more then you (given health issue the prevents me from working I have put to many hours into the game I'm sure). Many of us pointed out how to cause the door bug the majority of the time. Instead of saying "well I hardly every experience it" maybe more thought provoking post from a dev is "please tell me how you do it" and then try to reproduce the bug.  The odd thing is you quantified your comment with host mitigation fixed it.. well great for you.. but not the host who lost all his XP having to leave do to a bug that should of been discovered in QA.  It took the community all of 10 mins to start hitting the door bug on live.

 

Better communication and action is required on Bioware's part. A list on known bugs that are acknowledged by the dev team is a start and something like the door but that now almost everyone I play with has deleted the expansion off there game just so they can play again is a hotfix issue.  We know we can reproduce the ele's firestorm can cause it.  We have reproduced it over and over its not hard to grab a good geared ele and do it.  Or even try to pm a player and have them reproduce it.  I'm sure many of us that are reporting would have no issue going into a private match to show how to reproduce the bug that is effecting so many of us.

 

Right now the lack of communication and seeming un-urgency is not helping relation between player base and Bioware.  Do not take this brow beating as a totally lack of support for Bioware.  Your guys commitment to free DLC I applaud and I'm thankful that Bioware/EA is not nickel and diming us as Activision does. When it comes to game breaking bugs a little more urgency would be very much appreciated. 

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this..

From a concerned player...

[DozenMarks]

Well, this is quite the interesting topic, now isn't it?

 

With regards to the topic at hand, exactly how many people are trying to stop others from pointing out issues, and how many of them are trying to stop the method with which others point out issues?  There's a key difference there.  I doubt anybody wants major bugs to remain, but that doesn't mean there aren't better ways to go about it than others.  Like Yumi said, it's perfectly reasonable to have threads acknowledging bugs and expressing the desire to get rid of them (even multiple threads on the same topic depending on how long it's taken).  It's not exactly OK for everybody to lose their cool and start throwing blame everywhere and being as negative as they can try to be about it, as you can accomplish the same thing without being a jerk.  There's a large difference in making a thread about an important issue (such as the no-key bug) and having everybody simply agree that it exists and would like it to be fixed like civilized people, and having a thread about the same issue where the majority of posts resort to "Rawr Bioware sucks I HATE THEM FIX IT NOW ARGHHHH *rant rant rant*."  They would both accomplish the exact same thing (alerting Bioware to the issue, or should they already know, how widespread the issue is).  One of those two methods would likely want Bioware employees to respond and try to come to an understanding a lot more often than the other one (I'll give you a hint, it's not unnecessary rage that accomplishes nothing).

 

As for Andy thinking the bug isn't a "major issue," why would you think that?  Just because he, at the time, had only experienced the bug personally less than 10% of the time?  I'm pretty sure he's well aware of the issue, and it sounded more to me that he knows it is and simply wasn't able to reproduce the bug on his own yet, so perhaps at that time they didn't know what was causing it to fix it yet.  Perhaps they still don't.  I've never experienced the no-key bug myself yet, either.  Does that mean I don't know how much of a problem it is for those here that do?  Of course not.  I've just gotten lucky so far.  Some people get issues in varying degrees compared to others a lot of the time.

 

Before anybody tries to label me as a "Bioware apologist" either, I'm not.  I, too, would like to see these bugs addressed, so I can not have to worry about whether or not I'll end up experiencing them in the future, regardless of having them before or not.  I also agree that communication can definitely be more open between the playerbase and the developers on the forums.  I've seen enough forums where the devs are very "present" in the community and it works out wonderfully.  Then again, a lot of those communities don't have people simply jumping down Bioware's throats for whatever reason at the moment, either, and I honestly can't blame Andy or Amelia for not posting as much as we all would like.  Given the "desire" to make threads such as this one to rant solely about how it should be allowed and acceptable to rant and spread hate and negativity, I'd probably not even post as often as they do now were I in their shoes.  Perhaps certain people should just lighten up and they'd be more open to posting.

 

I'll more than gladly wait for the day when there's a thread about a major issue and 300 people simply reply "I agree, I'm experience this issue as well, could we please get it fixed?"  They'd be a lot more inclined to respond to that thread than one where it says the exact same thing, except where 300 people just rag on Bioware about how they need to get stuff fixed and start spewing hate, even though it's the same basic topic.  I mean, would you rather talk to a group of people trying to hold a civilized conversation, or a bunch of people just yelling at you and arguing among themselves for no good reason?

 

EDIT:  Grammar.

[Storm_Changer]

Snip for space 

 

There aren't many users on the forums generally, but if you go to any negative-spun thread you'll see what I mean. As I highlighted - the method honestly doesn't matter. Resolving the problem itself will also resolve any problematic methods, as the method will no longer be necessary. This is why asking a user to be positive about a bug is fruitless, as the bug still exists and asking users to be more pleasant about it won't get it fixed either, as the bug will have to be fixed either way. 

 

Better is a subjective term. You cannot arbitrarily decide which method is "better." By all means, value one approach above another yourself, but that is your personal preference and cannot be pushed onto others. It's inevitable that when people realize they've paid money for a broken game they will get angry, which is in itself reasonable in this context. As already stated, and I believe you'd agree, this would be quelled somewhat if the devs kept the community in the loop, which honestly wouldn't take much time or effort to do. Ultimately the devs will naturally be held accountable for their game - good and bad. It just so happens that a large portion of users only have bad things to say about the MP due to the game-breaking bugs. Is it the users fault these bugs exist? No. Is it the users responsibility to be calm about it? To a degree, that is to say, within community guidelines. But a month of radio silence and not a single whisper of a patch to fix the on launch bugs has naturally raised the tensions. But again, who is responsible for that? 

 

It's just the way I read his post in the context of his other posts - he's made it clear that this interpretation was not what he intended. It's good that he's clarified that here, but it would be better if he clarified his OP, or replied to users who had interpreted his statement in that way immediately to clear up the confusion. Alot of communities, even with bug ridden games, can build strong relationships with devs. To do so it requires transparency from the devs, and a desire from the devs to keep consumers in the loop with regards to bugs and other issues. This good will is understood and appreciated by the consumer, who then trusts the devs as a general rule.

 

That hasn't happened here - as previously stated it's been pretty much radio silence for a month, with no official announcements regarding hot-fixes or up-coming patches, let alone progress updates. As far as I'm concerned you reap what you sow - by and large only two devs come on these forums, both of them pretty rarely make a post or two. If you're going to leave the community to its own devices it's best to be sure the game is fully functioning before you do so. DAI:MP forums is the perfect example of what happens when you don't. I'm sure both Andy and Amelia feel like they're taking the blunt of the anger unjustly, but they're both the only focal points the community has with regards to developer interaction. It may well be unfair on both of them, but that is moreso the fault of whoever has decided that the consumer isn't important enough to be updated on issues regarding their product. As previously pointed out, if an official link was made in which the devs stated exactly where this all stands, I imagine many users would be somewhat placated. 

 

Defending the right of the consumer [or of anyone generally] to point out bugs without having to sugar coat the situation is not "spreading hate." Regardless, you've fallen into the exact problem I highlighted in the OP. You aren't seeing the cause of the problem - the bugs. Your instead focusing on the users pointing out the bugs, as if it's somehow their fault. Until the game-breaking bugs are dealt with, it honestly doesn't matter what any of us say on the issue, people will continue to be negative. They don't have to "lighten up" before posting, linked to the first point I made and the point about sugar coating - being honest is important. If the game is broken, you should absolutely state that it is broken, regardless of how you do it. Being negative is just as permissible as being positive, if not more understandable in this context. 

 

I would rather the game wasn't broken in the first place, so none of these discussions were even necessary. The onus for the state of the game isn't on the users, they are just responding to it. And whilst of course holding civil discussion - as we are doing right now - has its merits, as I highlighted in my OP, there's a difference between as suggestion that requires justification and a justified demand. One requires civility and debate. One does not. Ultimately being negative doesn't mean you can't be civil - nor does it mean developers should be avoiding negativity [which is quite frankly impossible unless you ignored the forums altogether.]

[Yumi]

At this point it's too much effort to show the patched over holes in your arguments Zane.

I think you are 90% incorrect. Not interested in posting more walls of text in this back and forth.

Can we just let this argument die?

The point is the group of forumers sharing your attitude will never come over to my group's ( the positive people and I think you called us "bioware apologists") point of view and your group will never convince us your attitude is right.

Immovable object unstoppable force.

Let's just let it die.

Edit grammar

[Storm_Changer]

At this point it's too much effort to show the patched over holes in your arguments Zane.

I think you are 90% incorrect. Not interested in posting more walls of text in this back and forth.

Can we just let this argument die?

The point is the group of forumers sharing your attitude will never come over to my group's ( the positive people and I think you called us "bioware apologists") point of view and your group will never convince us your attitude is right.

Immovable object unstoppable force.

Let's just let it die.

Edit grammar

 

 I'd like to know what patched holes exist, but you've clearly no interest in discussing it further. By all means, take your leave, you aren't obligated to post here, or even look at the thread. 

 

I can only speak for myself and highlight flaws in logic that some users are wielding against others frequently, I don't see that as being part of a group. I'd love to have nicer things to say about the MP and the devs, but I won't be giving praise until it is earned. And that is unfortunately quite a ways off IMO, although I've already highlighted what I think needs to be done before we can move past the negativity. 

 

Apologists is a specific term for people who only praise and defend a given group [Bioware] without critique, regardless of whether the praise/defense is warranted. They will often lash out against any user that goes against their own narrative, trying to silence them one way or another. But I haven't named anyone specifically, including yourself, as an apologist. I'm simply alluding to a mode of thinking that some users I've observed seem to fit into, and highlighting why I believe it's wrong. 

 

If nobody else has anything to say the thread will naturally die. Until that point I will continue to reply to any comments where a reply is due. But by all means, you're not obligated to be on this thread. Equally so though, I'm not obligated to 'let it die' and I don't actually have any control over that either.