176 réponses à ce sujet

[TammieAZ]

She does have mental disabilities...

[DameGrace]

Just beacuse it isn't right dosen't automatically make it abuse,don't  demean people who are acually verbally and physcally abused by comparing it to anything that acually happens in the game, you are trivilizing real issues and it's just plain insluting. There's one proper deffinition for abuse and it's in the ****** dictionary and it sure as hell dosen't include anything Iron Bull or Sera do, worst case senario he missreads you and the second you say stop, he stops.

 

There are women who get sexually harrased every ****** day and when they say stop, they don't ****** stop. By comparing what Bull does in the game to that you might as well go and spit in their faces.

 

What Sera demands is selfish, childish and inconsiderate among many other things but it's not even close to absue!! How can you seriosuly even consider this absue!?

Uncaring and demanding as it may be, Sera has a right to her own deal breakers like everyone else. Just beacuse she fucks up and gives you a stupid and hurtful ultimatum dosen't mean she's abusing anyone. She just fucked up in a relashionship causing it to end. Like in real life. The end.

 

1. Just because I think what Sera does come close to abuse, doesn't mean I trivialize the abuse or exclude sexual, verbal or physical aspects of it. I agree that I was wrong in saying that Bull's advances are abusive, I was quick to misinterpret the OP's message

2. There are several definitions of abuse. Could you quote the article from the "*******" dictionary which in your mind proves that there's only one definition of abuse?

3. Many people (I guess, most of us) have deal breakers. In Sera's case it is your faith: unless you denounce it, she's done with you. This in itself may not be the indicator of abuse, but her attitude to... well, everything else, shows warning signs. She constantly berates your Inquisitor, calls you stupid, whines that you are too 'elfy', demands that you denounce your faith (even though you can be as non-religious, non-elfy as possible)... In my eyes, she constantly mistreats you - yes, she doesn't sexually harass you or beats you (though, I'm pretty sure there is a moment she draws weapon at you) - but her actions and words show at least a potential for abuse. Some people say "well, she has an excuse..." Well, that's what most abusers claim they have. "They have an excuse". There is no excuse for her actions. 

[realguile]

I keep saying this girl reminds me of Charles Barkley in that she has to be mildly retarded. How else do you explain some of the stuff that comes out of her mouth? She has to be mentally disabled or delayed.

[Ogillardetta]

I don't think she stupid I think she has ADHD and doesn't think before she speaks. I had similar problems with that when I was younger you just say what you think and don't really care about what anyone else might think about your opinions.

[Nefla]

I mean it's kinda to be expected, it's not like she leads you to believe she's devout. Like it or not religious people have a tendency to push their religion on people sometimes on purpose sometimes not. For me personally I chose to spend my life with a woman who believes in god but isn't active with a church, she also respects my decision not to believe. Among us we decided to let our children from their own opinions on faith.

Honestly my situation is pretty rare. Most people of faith can't/won't be with someone who doesn't share these beliefs. It makes perfect sense that sera would want to be with someone who shares her views on the matter.

It would make sense for her not to get into a romance with someone who has incompatible beliefs, but it's another thing to go through the relationship and decide later down the road "no, you have to believe what I say or gtfo." I haven't done this romance so maybe she just wont begin a relationship with you if you believe in the Dalish gods but it sounds like she will break up with you later if you don't agree with her.

[Kirikou]

What is with some of these comments? People can be stupid without having disabilities. Mental retardation is an actually serious condition and unless you want to say most of the world is disabled then please cut that **** out. ಠ_ಠ.

Sera is stupid and unintelligent but other than that she can function normally.

I don't see what Sera says as abuse, mostly because I can liken it to the choice of someone in a relationship wanting children and the other one not wanting it and breaking up due to it.

[actionhero112]

You mean Sera giving her girlfriend Lavellan an ultimatum to suddenly give up her religious beliefs in order to continue the relationship? If Sera only wanted to be with an Andrastian, I don't understand why she entered into a relationship with someone who was Dalish in the first place. Entering into a romance with someone, having sex with them, and then tossing them to the curb because the person won't suddenly give up their religious beliefs paints a pretty ugly picture of Sera.

 

Why did YOU enter a relationship when the first thing out of her mouth about you was that she hoped you weren't "too elfy"? Also, let's be honest, you're putting a lot of responsibility on Sera for a decision that was ultimately yours as the inquisitor. 

 

Also the last part made me laugh, because that's exactly what you're doing. You're entering into a romance with, having sex with, and tossing that person to the curb for views you knew they had. Was it really that unforseen that the character that dislikes dalish culture to that extent would demand her lover renounce it? 

 

The more I learn about this, the bigger fan I am of Sera and whoever wrote her. It takes a gift to get people this bothered. 

[robertthebard]

1. Just because I think what Sera does come close to abuse, doesn't mean I trivialize the abuse or exclude sexual, verbal or physical aspects of it. I agree that I was wrong in saying that Bull's advances are abusive, I was quick to misinterpret the OP's message
2. There are several definitions of abuse. Could you quote the article from the "*******" dictionary which in your mind proves that there's only one definition of abuse?
3. Many people (I guess, most of us) have deal breakers. In Sera's case it is your faith: unless you denounce it, she's done with you. This in itself may not be the indicator of abuse, but her attitude to... well, everything else, shows warning signs. She constantly berates your Inquisitor, calls you stupid, whines that you are too 'elfy', demands that you denounce your faith (even though you can be as non-religious, non-elfy as possible)... In my eyes, she constantly mistreats you - yes, she doesn't sexually harass you or beats you (though, I'm pretty sure there is a moment she draws weapon at you) - but her actions and words show at least a potential for abuse. Some people say "well, she has an excuse..." Well, that's what most abusers claim they have. "They have an excuse". There is no excuse for her actions.

You know what I find abusive here? It's simple really, and it's going to be majorly unpopular:

Inquisitor: Hey, check it out, this chick hates elfyness, and being a devout Dalish, I'm going to romance her so I can change her views on elfyness.

Check it out, she has been against this idea since you met her. She has made it plain in dialog and the approval meter since the first time you can actually talk to her, but at the end of the story, because she hasn't flipped her script, it's suddenly her problem? She is Andrastian, and the Chant teaches that there is but one God, the Maker. Whether it's right or wrong, it's what she believes, and now it's bad? I realize that we have people that feel like they need to rewrite the Chant so they can justify a mage as the Divine, so now we're supposed to ignore this bit too, so that we can justify that Sera is stupid, or abusive?

The abusive one in this relationship is the Inquisitor. The one that knows full well that Sera isn't into living in the past, isn't into the Dalish mindset in general, especially since, according to the Dalish, she's a flat ear, which really isn't any different from being a "knife ear" is it? But the Inquisitor, with their mighty Player Agency, is going to convert her to their beliefs. Then when it doesn't happen, there's something wrong with her? No. There's something wrong with the Inquisitor because they are incapable of allowing people to be the people they are, but instead want them to conform to what they think they should think and do. The OP's friend is right, it can be an abusive relationship, but the OP interpreted it wrong, because the PC isn't the victim, but the perpetrator of the abuse.

Sera doesn't come to your quarters, begging you to notice her. The Inquisitor does that. The Inquisitor, even being Dalish and knowing her stance on elfyness pursues her, knowing full well her stance, and then is surprised when she sticks to her guns? No, what we have here is the Inquisitor trying to act like the victim because their Player Agency didn't apply. The Inquisitor comes here claiming that she doesn't have any character development, which they conveniently define as "she didn't conform to what I wanted her to believe" instead of acknowledging that she does indeed grow to trust, or even love the Inquisitor as being growth, and development, since, at the end of the day, she can reject you for professing to follow something that she sincerely believes to be demons, based entirely on her religion, and then be blamed for sticking to what she believes, because now, it's not what the Player believes, and she's the one at fault.

Sorry, but she's not the one at fault. The one at fault is the Inquisitor, for believing that all party members should conform to what they want them to be, instead of who they are. Before we get to the fallacy of "but that's not what I want", what did anyone expect to happen when a character expresses their negative feelings about the whole situation, only to find out that their loved one does? You see, this isn't which way the TP roll is on the dispenser, it's her fundamental belief system that people want to change, and then they're irate when it doesn't change, and come here playing the Victim Card^TM.

[LobselVith8]

You know what I find abusive here? It's simple really, and it's going to be majorly unpopular:

Inquisitor: Hey, check it out, this chick hates elfyness, and being a devout Dalish, I'm going to romance her so I can change her views on elfyness.

 

I romanced Merrill with Hawke, and there was no expectation to change her religious views on the Creators. I don't see why you assume Lavellan romancing Sera means that the player wanted to convert her to the elven religion. Two people can romance one another without sharing the same religious beliefs.

[robertthebard]

I romanced Merrill with Hawke, and there was no expectation to change her religious views on the Creators. I don't see why you assume Lavellan romancing Sera means that the player wanted to convert her to the elven religion. Two people can romance one another without sharing the same religious beliefs.

Really? So you're fine with the fact that she chooses to stick with her beliefs, and dump the Inquisitor then? Because two people can also break up over those beliefs. Of course, we've hashed this out in the other thread, and there, as here, you'll ignore that fact because it doesn't fit into your little box. I had thought that this was a unique situation for the topic, only I found out that that is your common stance in a discussion: Disregard anything that you can't internalize, so that you can continue to believe that you're arguing from a place of superiority to everyone else. While it may make you feel good to do this, it doesn't have the effect on the rest of the people in the discussion you think it does.

[LiquidLyrium]

You know what I find abusive here? It's simple really, and it's going to be majorly unpopular:

Inquisitor: Hey, check it out, this chick hates elfyness, and being a devout Dalish, I'm going to romance her so I can change her views on elfyness.

 

You're right, it is unpopular because you are the first and only person I have ever seen saying this??

 

The issue is NOT "Sera doesn't believe or can't be made to believe" it's the fact that there is no "agree to disagree" option with Sera. Ever. Sera's worldview is incredibly black and white and it goes beyond the issue of the Dalish. 

 

(Also can we stop pretending that it's City Elf Vs Dalish Elf?? It's more complex than that. Dalish will and have taken in City elves, some City elves dream of running off to join the Dalish. In DA2 when Marethari enters the Alienage, all the other elves bow to her because they respect her so much. The relationship between City Elves and Dalish Elves isn't always negative.)

 

It's not like people in real life never, ever date people with different religious or political beliefs either. It is possible to have a happy healthy relationship with people who don't subscribe to your belief system. 

 

And even if it is a dealbreaker for Sera, it should not be couched in the form of an ultimatum. Her entire manner is so manipulative in that one line. "Please do this [petname] for me? For us?" 

 

I would have been fine with the breakup if Sera had instead said something along the lines of "I can't reconcile this, and I made a mistake with us. I thought it could work out, but it's just not going to, I'm sorry, let's just part ways."

 

And I'm not even going to touch the rest of your post.

[PrinceOfFallout13]

Are people really defending sera? Really?

Shes by far bioware worst character seriously anything that comes out of her mouth is trash just like viviene

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Sera is a stupid, closed minded, narrow minded, intolerant chit, that's all. Not abusive just thoughtless, rude and, stupid. IMO, better game without recruiting her.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Viv at least has valid, well thought out reasons for holding th her views and beliefs and, if she had the dialog, she would provide a wonderful debate partner. Sera's reason is  "just because" and she would fail miserably in a debate yet still refuse to consider the opposing views. That is stupidity and no amount of education is going to change that.

[robertthebard]

You're right, it is unpopular because you are the first and only person I have ever seen saying this??
 
The issue is NOT "Sera doesn't believe or can't be made to believe" it's the fact that there is no "agree to disagree" option with Sera. Ever. Sera's worldview is incredibly black and white and it goes beyond the issue of the Dalish. 
 
(Also can we stop pretending that it's City Elf Vs Dalish Elf?? It's more complex than that. Dalish will and have taken in City elves, some City elves dream of running off to join the Dalish. In DA2 when Marethari enters the Alienage, all the other elves bow to her because they respect her so much. The relationship between City Elves and Dalish Elves isn't always negative.)
 
It's not like people in real life never, ever date people with different religious or political beliefs either. It is possible to have a happy healthy relationship with people who don't subscribe to your belief system. 
 
And even if it is a dealbreaker for Sera, it should not be couched in the form of an ultimatum. Her entire manner is so manipulative in that one line. "Please do this [petname] for me? For us?" 
 
I would have been fine with the breakup if Sera had instead said something along the lines of "I can't reconcile this, and I made a mistake with us. I thought it could work out, but it's just not going to, I'm sorry, let's just part ways."
 
And I'm not even going to touch the rest of your post.

So all the views expressed here are shades of grey? It's funny, because the first 4 posts immediately after this one bear out the post you "didn't want to touch". There is, after all, a reason you don't want to touch it, right? Because you know it's not "agree to disagree". Despite the claims made that she doesn't have a clearly stated position, unlike Viv, she does, and it happens to conflict with your player agency, so bam, she's the bad guy. Here's an idea, try to change Viv's opinion about the Chantry and the Circles, and see what happens. I'm betting the results are going to be similar to trying to change Sera's view. Because at the end of the day, she doesn't pursue you, she doesn't ninjamance you, and she doesn't hide how she feels about elfyness. Dialog and the approval meter make her position plain. When you choose to ignore those and pursue a relationship, why are you shocked, or surprised when she sticks to her position? Isn't this whole ordeal based around the idea that the PC wants to stick to their position, and Sera isn't buying it?

So what you're saying is that it's fine for the PC to stick to their position, and Sera should conform? When, instead of conforming, she sticks to hers too, and breaks it off, it's suddenly a bad thing? Taking bets, right now, that if the PC could break it off with her over the same issue, they would. But that would be ok, because they used their player agency to do it, but Sera doing it violates that agency, leaving the player feeling betrayed?

[Hazegurl]

OP, roleplay the game however you like. I do consider it emotional blackmail to ask someone to dump their faith or even just their opinion just to be with you. But if you consider it a small price then do whatever the heck you want. Why are you allowing other people to tell you how to play your own game??

 

Although I find it funny that you think Sera has mental disabilities yet you wanna romance her. lol!!

[ShadowWeaver2012]

I once read that, at least in the Tolkien universe, Elves don't reach maturity until they are in their 50's. She seems like she's around 20 years old in actual years, but that would essentially make her a teenager as far as "elf" years.

 

She acts like a teenager. Moody, hard-headed, loves to argue and put people down. If you think about her in this light, her behavior makes total sense.

[BraveVesperia]

Sera makes it quite clear early on how she feels about elven culture and religion, it's part of why she's so reticent to start a relationship with Lavellan in the first place. Although I don't exactly like the way it's handled, I can see why she'd suddenly bring this up and ask you to make a choice. Better to get the difficult question over and done with, instead of allowing the resentment/uncomfortableness/whatever bulid up. After all, if your Lavellan is that strongly connected to her elven culture, she probably shouldn't have gotten involved with Sera in the first place. The religion/culture thing was always going to be an issue.

[Ryzaki]

Eh not sure why an elven PC would want to start a relationship who's reaction to anything elven is fart noises. Granted this doesn't suddenly make her less scummy for busting out the "reject the religion you grew up with or I'll leave you." card (especially after her being the one to bring it up in the first place.) but...yeah fem Lavellan can do a lot better than the trash that is Sera.

[LiquidLyrium]

So all the views expressed here are shades of grey? It's funny, because the first 4 posts immediately after this one bear out the post you "didn't want to touch". There is, after all, a reason you don't want to touch it, right? Because you know it's not "agree to disagree". Despite the claims made that she doesn't have a clearly stated position, unlike Viv, she does, and it happens to conflict with your player agency, so bam, she's the bad guy. Here's an idea, try to change Viv's opinion about the Chantry and the Circles, and see what happens. I'm betting the results are going to be similar to trying to change Sera's view. Because at the end of the day, she doesn't pursue you, she doesn't ninjamance you, and she doesn't hide how she feels about elfyness. Dialog and the approval meter make her position plain. When you choose to ignore those and pursue a relationship, why are you shocked, or surprised when she sticks to her position? Isn't this whole ordeal based around the idea that the PC wants to stick to their position, and Sera isn't buying it?

So what you're saying is that it's fine for the PC to stick to their position, and Sera should conform? When, instead of conforming, she sticks to hers too, and breaks it off, it's suddenly a bad thing? Taking bets, right now, that if the PC could break it off with her over the same issue, they would. But that would be ok, because they used their player agency to do it, but Sera doing it violates that agency, leaving the player feeling betrayed?

 

 

Where did I ever make this out to be about player agency?? My opinion on Sera's behavior isn't about player agency. It is about the fact that you are never allowed to disagree with her without her belittling you, outright shouting at you, or treating you like crap. (And the Inquisitor's responses aren't always perfect either, but rarely am I ever 'having a go' at Sera, which is what she always assumes in most circumstances.) My problem with Sera is her toxic personality. Let's take another example Solas has his own set of issues--some of which do not get resolved, but at least he will come around and admit that he was wrong in his judgement about the Dalish. My problem with Sera is primarily that she never changes. My problem is that there's no calling her out on her ****--which is something I trust my friends to do for me. There's no conflict(apart from just butting heads with the Inquisitor), growth, or resolution. She comes along, ostensibly to see if there is any truth to her faith, but she ultimately dismisses or rejects anything that challenges her worldview. There's not much point in going on a journey of discovery if you're just going to reject everything that doesn't fit into a certain box. 

My problem with Sera is not that I can't "change" her, it's that I can't support her in her supposed journey of self-discovery and that the game's narrative actively shields her from change or compromise. 

 

Also I never said the PC should be unfixed or immutable in their positions? One of the more interesting aspects of the DA games for me is that the protagonist CAN change. I adore that. You don't have to be a person set in stone. Your beliefs are allowed to change to reflect new information (re: Mythal or finding out the truth about what happened at the Conclave).

 

Also, I said that it was the manner in which the breakup happened that bothers me, not the fact that Sera is the one to break it off. It's how she does it. If she had just said "I can't make this work" or "I think we're too different" after the PC affirms their beliefs--rather than asking the PC to discard those beliefs--I would be totally fine with how the breakup happened.

 

I didn't want to touch the rest of your post because it was gross and victim blaming and ignores the experiences of those who are abuse survivors and are reminded of their experiences by Sera. Besides, when you enter the relationship with her, there at least seems to be a tentative understanding of "We'll see if this works out." And part of that understanding--to me--implies "I will respect your right to have your own beliefs even if they don't match with my own."

 

The PC never demands Sera to believe in what happened at Mythal. They never demand that she change for them. The PC is allowed to respect Sera's opinions and belief system, but Sera apparently cannot do the same. They break up because Sera can't handle the PC believing in it. She refuses to allow even the shred of possibility that the two belief systems can coexist.

 

Even as a "Friend" that scene left a bad taste in my mouth. She calls me stupid because I do not believe the same thing she does. I never asked her to alter her belief system for me, all I want from Sera is the ability to disagree and have her respect the fact that I have a different opinion from her. Fullstop.

[KaiserShep]

Are people really defending sera? Really?

 

Yep, and always will! She's annoying as hell and mocks elven culture at every turn and I greatly approve. I do like these threads though. Always fun to see the effect this character has.

 

In any case, the consolation here is that Sera's companionship comes with a handy abort button.

[Sully13]

Well this escalated quickly.

QUICK Kaisershep join me in a singsong we can try to calm them down.

[Ryzaki]

Yep, and always will! She's annoying as hell and mocks elven culture at every turn and I greatly approve. I do like these threads though. Always fun to see the effect this character has.

 

In any case, the consolation here is that Sera's companionship comes with a handy abort button.

 

See I'm not sure why that's not there for everyone though. As it is if you dare recruit most people you have to wait til you completely ****** them off for them to leave.

[KaiserShep]

Well this escalated quickly.

QUICK Kaisershep join me in a singsong we can try to calm them down.

 

This always makes me feel better when I'm feeling blue.