121 réponses à ce sujet

[skotie]

I'm gonna have to agree with Rifneno, I smell some major retcon here. The way the whole battle was presented to the player gives little room for doubt, Loghain had the superior numbers compared to the king's army, that fact is nailed home by pretty much everyone you talk to in the camp. The cut scene isn't doing him any favors ether, both army's were as far as the eye could see, yet Calian at the very least had a sizable force at the start of the battle. So judgeing by that there is zero reason to believe this is a lost cause.

[Zwingtanz]

Didn't Loghain actively sabotage the tower too?

[Zeroth Angel]

Surely he had knowledge at least of what would happen to the Couslands, Howe wouldn't have went through with it I he wasn't sure he woul get away with it. So in my opinion it is proof that loghain was already planning on retreating from the battle.

No he had no knowledge of that. Gaider confirmed that he didn't.

[MoonDrummer]

No he had no knowledge of that. Gaider confirmed that he didn't.

Then Howe is a fecking idiot, and one of the luckiest fecking idiots in thedas.
Honestly this just further screams retcon

[RepHope]

Then Howe is a fecking idiot, and one of the luckiest fecking idiots in thedas.

What the hell did Howe tell Loghain? "Oh yeah Bryce was TOTALLY collaborating with the Orlaisians, for real man, does this look like a face that would lie to you?". Was Loghain seriously that retarded? I preferred him letting the Couslands go unavenged as it meant he had no real rivals left. Until the Warden.

This just makes him look like he's completely lost his brain cells. What was wrong with him thinking the Wardens were full of bull, the King was incompetent and needed to die, and seizing his chance when it showed up?

[Rifneno]

No he had no knowledge of that. Gaider confirmed that he didn't.

[skotie]

Didn't Loghain actively sabotage the tower too?

Possibly, I remember the guard saying they found lower chambers and that it was off limits, though I suppose there's no "proof" that the darkspawn didn't break through just as you enter the tower.

 

I felt it was pretty obvious why Loghain wanted his men to handle lighting the beacon, he never intended to send them in the first place.

 

Edit: lol yeah feel pretty stupid about saying there's no proof the darkspawn didn't just break through. I mean I totally forgot about the piles of dead bodies and darkspawn "decorations" you see during your climb up the tower. Clearly they did not JUST ARRIVE XD

[Zeroth Angel]

 

 

"There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together..." David Gaider

[Rifneno]

]"There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together..." David Gaider

Yeah, I'm not so much questioning that he said it as questioning that this isn't a retconned turn of events after Loghain proved unlikeable. Honestly, the only source I could trust less would be anyone on the Mass Effect 3 team.

[Gunslinger01101]

Yeah.....Hardened Alistair is the best ruler, hands down. It's 50/50 between my female cousland warden (suck it Howe!) and Anora as his queen.

 

Also, Lohgain was a deluded traitor pure and simple. I don't care about any retconned crap from the DLC. He betrayed the king, his soldiers, and left the whole of the southlands to the darkspawn. He was destined for death as soon as that happened. One of the most effective cutscenes in an RPG IMO. I was like WHAT?! NO! I LIT THE GD BEACON YOU ASSHAT! And then later when someone told me I didn't do it in time (can't remember), I wanted to murder their face. All this after Howe massacred my family. MAN was I pissed and out for vengeance.

 

...And then that quartermaster in haven starts spouting her crap about the whole thing. Totally didn't save her from Coriphy-fish's attack. Also, somehow I got King Alistair with Loghain alive in inquisition. I didn't think that was possible...

[Zeroth Angel]

Yeah, I'm not so much questioning that he said it as questioning that this isn't a retconned turn of events after Loghain proved unlikeable. Honestly, the only source I could trust less would be anyone on the Mass Effect 3 team.

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.

 

I personally prefer what they did with him. But hey, that's just me.

 

If you can't stand the guy that's fine with me.

[Ryzaki]

...And then that quartermaster in haven starts spouting her crap about the whole thing. Totally didn't save her from Coriphy-fish's attack. Also, somehow I got King Alistair with Loghain alive in inquisition. I didn't think that was possible...

 

It is. Harden Alistair marry him to Anora , recruit Loghain then do the DR.

 

(Granted at that point I just throw Loghain at archie.)

[MoonDrummer]

Or there are two sides to every sh*storm like everything else.

Nah I don't buy it, he is definitely a traitor. In saying that I like the character, especially the Orlaisian hating part of him.

[sylvanaerie]

Thus proving that "All threads lead to Loghain" on the BSN.  Even when it's in Inquisition section of the game and about "How Anora has held up well" the past decade.

Personally she rules in only 1 of my world states (King Cousland), and he's pretty glad to have her in that capacity as he goes about finding a cure for the Calling.  I like to think he did it in response to what Cory did (but I will be honest, I haven't a clue since I have yet to get the war table mission discussing it).  Leliana did talk about her love quite openly, and get an introduction as "Mistress of the King of Ferelden" at the Winter Palace--which I imagined Anora would have been incensed about since they were supposed to be discreet!

But then, I have a pretty minimalist selection.  One world state (my 'canon') with him solo king, one world state with King Cousland, Queen Anora, GW Alistair.  

Dead Loghain in both.  Hate that bastard and always turn him into worm food, except I did make a world state with him as a surviving GW, Alistair/Anora ruling that I consider my 'lark run completely screwed up world state'.  Very disappointed that Redcliffe (which I had my warden abandon that time) was completely unchanged from the regular Redcliffe you encounter.

[Rifneno]

Or there are two sides to every sh*storm like everything else.

Oh, we're linking stuff? That's fun.

13. SUBSTITUTING FAMOUS QUOTES FOR COMMON SENSE
Example: Remember, “All things come to those who wait.” So don’t bother looking for a lob.

[sylvanaerie]

Relevant post is relevant.

 

http://social.biowar...308/blog/10285/

 

Head canon is still head canon.  Truth is, it's deliberately left vague and RtO was just a poorly written retcon bundle of OOCness, only useful for some crappy armor and a couple decent weapons.

 

For what it's worth, I did (and do) believe he didn't decide to turn till that moment, that it was not 'feed Cailan to the wolves' from the beginning, that it was 'save who I can, those down there are lost anyway'.  Whether he felt it was a battle they would lose or not is irrelevant in my mind since what's done is done.  Everything he did afterward condemns him in my playthroughs.

[MoonDrummer]

Head canon is still head canon. Truth is, it's deliberately left vague and RtO was just a poorly written retcon bundle of OOCness, only useful for some crappy armor and a couple decent weapons.

For what it's worth, I did (and do) believe he didn't decide to turn till that moment, that it was not 'feed Cailan to the wolves' from the beginning, that it was 'save who I can, those down there are lost anyway'. Whether he felt it was a battle they would lose or not is irrelevant in my mind since what's done is done. Everything he did afterward condemns him in my playthroughs.

I disagree, the fact Howe butchered the Couslands would make up the gist of my argument, surely Howe wouldn't have done something so daring unless he knew Cailen was about to bite the dust and he therefore would not face retribution.

[Rifneno]

I disagree, the fact Howe butchered the Couslands would make up the gist of my argument, surely Howe wouldn't have done something so daring unless he knew Cailen was about to bite the dust and he therefore would not face retribution.

This is an excellent point. There's no way Howe would've done that if he thought Cailan was going to be alive.

[skotie]

Thus proving that "All threads lead to Loghain" on the BSN.  Even when it's in Inquisition section of the game and about "How Anora has held up well" the past decade.

I think Anora looks just fine and pretty much every playthrough I had in Origin's I try to marry her to Alistair, because it just seems like the better course of action.

 

 

I just will never understand the Loghain supporters, even in the link by simfanSP all that goes to show is point out that Loghain had a good view of the battlefield and could have changed plans accordingly but refused to do so.

 

What should he have done? Why not go to the King's aid possibly saving what were left of his forces instead of flanking the darkspawn, then hold them in the passage (where Calian's forces were already) where the horde's superior numbers mean squat.

 

No I suppose retreat MUST be the better option I mean surely you won't have to fight this horde at some point in the near future anyways. Why not wait until you have even less men to deal with this inevitable threat.

[MoonDrummer]

It's completely OOC for Loghain to plan his death at that exact same time.

How many battles did they have?

Oh yeah. Loads.

Tons of "accidents" could happen.

Howe was just what everybody thinks Loghain was.

Might have killed Loghain too after a while xD

Yeah but the skirmishes before the battle all seemed to be successful and if you talk to Howe in the origin he questions whether it is a true blight. It just doesn't add up in my opinion, Howe would not have acted unless he was certain.