275 réponses à ce sujet

[dreamgazer]

Imo the only role-playing element that was worse in ME3 was the lack of choice when it came to dialogue. Other than that, ME3 improved upon practically everything from ME2.

 

This. 

[MrFob]

Didn't read much of the thread, mainly answering to the OP/title.

 

It is interesting that the OP says, s/he is not interested in the next ME because it will be too removed from the trilogy.

 

I am kinda hopeful for the next ME exactly because it looks like it will be pretty far removed from the old trilogy. Don't get me wrong, I loved the trilogy, Shepard and all that was part of it. I loved the characters and every single installment on it's own. However, I do maintain the opinion, that as a trilogy, ME1/2/3 failed - or at least did not capitalize on a lot of the extreme potential that was built up by ME1. That is the main reason why for me, playing through the trilogy always also leaves a bit of a bitter taste, because I also see what "could have been" IMO.

If the next ME were to just go on with the story - save import and all - I probably would have a hard time getting excited about it because all that baggage is carried along. However, a new and unrelated ME Next can be a great game again. It has the opportunity of a fresh start, the potential to recapture the sense of wonder that I had with ME1. It doesn't have to "measure up" and it doesn't have to drag plot points along which IMO are already overused as it is (Cerberus anyone?).

Will the next ME do all of these great things? I am by no means sure of it and I remain very cautious wth my enthusiasm for a game I know basically nothing about yet but I think that by starting over fresh, BW made the right decision.

 

That's not to say I don't want to see familiar things or hints and references to the old games. It just means that I am intrigued by the possibilities that open up by looking at the ME universe through a new perspective.

[Mister J]

Cautious with enthousiasm: yeah that's also how I approach it. I would like to be enthousiastic for ME4 but I have a number of doubts:

 

To have one set of characters, the one from the trilogy, to be gone and never seen again, and then to start over with another one to is kinda like being plucked away from my family and being put in a foster home. It's gonna take a lot of getting used to and will only be worth it if the new characters, stories and enviroments are gonna be so much better than the old ones. I would much more prefer the family of characters to be extended constantly, like it was over the course of ME 1, 2 & 3. And if you don't like a character there's plenty of opportunity to kill them off: it shouldn't be forced like it was with Thane or Legion.

 

Then there's also the problem of starting over again after the end of all endings - saving the whole galaxy: where do you go from there? Either you'll go for the repetitive solution (safe the whole universe or something) or you'll go mundane with lesser high stakes. I will be curious to see what BW has come up with because I have no idea what they're gonna do...

[ImaginaryMatter]

I'm pretty sure it was to make the game more cinematic.

KotOR started the cinematic trend, and Mass Effect was the "spiritual successor," they say.

 

I don't mind cinematic. It's just that in ME's case it's not that good.

[Iakus]

I don't mind cinematic. It's just that in ME's case it's not that good.

Indeed.

 

ME3 was more cinema than cinematic.

[Andrew Lucas]

When it was done well, the cinematic approach was good in ME3. There's no reason to take it away from the license, just be careful to not insert a personally in the character that isn't intended by the player.

[ImaginaryMatter]

When it was done well, the cinematic approach was good in ME3. There's no reason to take it away from the license, just be careful to not insert a personally in the character that isn't intended by the player.

 

Well by cinematic I mean the way the dialogue and cut scenes play out. Stuff like animations, framing, blocking of characters, pacing, etc. It was nice to not have has many of those weird gaps in conversation, but mostly you had drawn out exposition, jarring animations, drab scenery, etc. Without the dialogue prompts I'm just lying there watching dry scenes unfold. It's pretty boring to sit through and gives me a lot more time to think of things that don't make sense (or I just skip through it). I feel like in a lot of these areas ME3 was actually a step back from the other two (again, not that the other two were paragons or anything).

 

I do have problems with the decrease in dialogue prompts and the way it affected the player/Shepard dynamic but I think another issue is that it made large parts of ME3 feel like a poorly made movie rather than a game.

[Gkonone]

I'm not that excited for ME4 because no Shepard. I've always felt and still do, that there's way more story to tell with Shepard.

The journey was rushed, but still far from over. They screwed it up with ME3.

Retcon ME3, get Shepard back, and we're good to go, and get the old crew back, most of them anyway.

 

[dreamgazer]

Ugh, no.  No more Shepard and his/her baggage.  I want to see the MEU through a different pair of eyes. 

[Mister J]

Well I wouldn't want Shepard to return as the protagonist - the one that the player controls - , but just cutting him out completely... Ideally I would want him to be the 'Anderson' - the mentory figure - to the new protagonist.

[Gkonone]

Yes I know most of you don't want Shepard back, just stating an opinion, as are you. I remember a rather big thread from about a year ago or so, where a lot of people wanted Shepard back. I'm assuming most players that wanted Shepard back moved on. I wouldn't be surprised if ME5 would reintroduce Shepard as the main protagonist though.

Anyway, don't want to stir up that old discussion. It is what it is for now.

[Element Zero]

Shepard is my favorite game hero of all, but s/he is ready for retirement. I'm eager for the next journey with a new protagonist, crew and adversaries, and neither Shepard nor Reapers.

[Gkonone]

Didn't read much of the thread, mainly answering to the OP/title.

 

It is interesting that the OP says, s/he is not interested in the next ME because it will be too removed from the trilogy.

 

I am kinda hopeful for the next ME exactly because it looks like it will be pretty far removed from the old trilogy. Don't get me wrong, I loved the trilogy, Shepard and all that was part of it. I loved the characters and every single installment on it's own. However, I do maintain the opinion, that as a trilogy, ME1/2/3 failed - or at least did not capitalize on a lot of the extreme potential that was built up by ME1. That is the main reason why for me, playing through the trilogy always also leaves a bit of a bitter taste, because I also see what "could have been" IMO.

If the next ME were to just go on with the story - save import and all - I probably would have a hard time getting excited about it because all that baggage is carried along. However, a new and unrelated ME Next can be a great game again. It has the opportunity of a fresh start, the potential to recapture the sense of wonder that I had with ME1. It doesn't have to "measure up" and it doesn't have to drag plot points along which IMO are already overused as it is (Cerberus anyone?).

Will the next ME do all of these great things? I am by no means sure of it and I remain very cautious wth my enthusiasm for a game I know basically nothing about yet but I think that by starting over fresh, BW made the right decision.

 

That's not to say I don't want to see familiar things or hints and references to the old games. It just means that I am intrigued by the possibilities that open up by looking at the ME universe through a new perspective.

Just curious here, you loved the trilogy yet you think it failed. And what was the extreme potential ME1 brought?

[goishen]

 And if you don't like a character there's plenty of opportunity to kill them off: it shouldn't be forced like it was with Thane or Legion.

 

 

 

Or *cough*Vivienne*cough*.

[Mcfly616]

I'll always remember my time with Shep and crew. And I can always revisit them whenever I feel like it. But I can't wait for a new adventure with a different narrative, and a new protagonist facing a different type of threat alongside a cast of fresh faces.

 

 

I'm looking forward to experiencing the MEU from a different perspective and being able to explore like never before.

[MrFob]

Just curious here, you loved the trilogy yet you think it failed. And what was the extreme potential ME1 brought?

 

Well, I do really enjoy all three games as for what they are. They have great art, design, mechanics, characters and each game in their own right has some great aspects to their story. ME1 is a brilliant setup for a trilogy (hence the potential). It sets up a detailed universe, full of interesting lore and with a great first glimpse at what could have been very interesting villains. ME2 is mainly great because of it's characters and all the small stories that come with them. While I am not too fond of ME2's main plot-line, the recruitment and loyalty missions in themselves are mostly fantastic. It's also got a rather unique structure to it, which reminds me more of a tv series than a movie (like ME1 and 3 do). Besides, with Overlord and LotSB, ME2 has some fantastic DLC. ME3 had some great "magic moments" and overall interesting missions and it did cash in on the characters that were built up in the previous games. It also has the best combat gameplay mechanics IMO. So all the 3 games have their own unique advantages and hence,m I love all three -> the trilogy.

 

However, while all three games by themselves are great, they failed to provide a coherent experience as I would expect from a trilogy. Each game was basically a story reboot (especially ME2) and the main plot-lines are not coherent at all (again, especially ME2, which to me only seems to deal with rather peripheral problems to the greater threat, which then has to be taken up in the limited recourse space that is ME3). Also, lore is frequently - and in many cases for dubious reasons - retconned or at least radically shifted (e.g. Cerberus, the reapers, council politics, the Geth, etc.). Characters are behaving inconsistently (probably due to changes in writers).

 

I am not saying that I expect such a grand universe to be absolutely consistent. However, compare Mass Effect to other trilogies in literature, movies or gaming and I think it is one of the examples with the least consistency overall. That is the problem I have with it whenever I go for another run through these incredible games and that is what I refer to when I say that playing through it also always leaves some bitter taste behind, mingled in a  lot of positive memories.

This was not the case when I first played through ME1, because that game is very consistent in itself in terms of both, logic and theme. Of course, it was easy for ME1 to be consistent because it didn't have the "baggage" of over 1000 variables from save imports to carry around. I do acknowledge that BW set themselves up for an almost impossible task there and they did an admirable job with it but in the end, when seeing all three games as one whole product - and remember, ME was advertised as a planned trilogy from the very start - it failed to maintain it's internal narrative coherence IMO.

 

It's why, on the one hand, I love these games so much, that I am still on these forums 3 years later (and still play them and mod them as well) and on the other hand have enough resentment to do a lot of criticizing on these boards. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few of the more critical people here find themselves in a similar mind-state (wild speculation of course).

 

So, what I am hoping for in the next ME is a game that catches all the goodness that was in the individual games of the old trilogy while making enough of a fresh start to maintain consistency in itself similar to ME1 back in the day. If that is the case, I think I can thoroughly enjoy a new ME game.

 

Hope that answers your question.

[Ctoagu]

-snip-

 

Having played the first ME before the second one came out, I was actually painfully aware of the odd disconnect between the two when I picked up ME2 at its launch. I felt disoriented on my first playthrough, like I was supposed to be doing something else while I was playing through all the (well-done in their own right) side stories and loyalty missions.

 

Consider this - Mass Effect 1 set a precedent in that all the main missions (the mandatory ones that advanced the story) were directly connected to Saren and his forces. We went to Therum for Liara, an archaeologist who is a daughter of Benezia, and so got caught up in it all because of the circumstances. Feros and Noveria were visited because we were following Saren and Benezia to places where they were furthering their goals to find the Conduit. After that, Virmire, Ilos and the Citadel are all obvious - respectively setting the stakes, ramping up the tension while providing some vital exposition, and finally hitting the eleventh hour.

 

Compare that to how much the Collectors of ME2 are involved. We had Freedom's Progress, which exposition at best, as we only fought mechs to get to Veetor. There was Horizon, in which we actually see the Collectors in action, followed by the Collector Ship. We can throw in the mission to the Derelict Reaper just to show that they still have a presence as well. Finally, there was the attempted capture of the Normandy and the Suicide Mission, closing the conflict. That's four-to-five events in a game that has fleshed-out recruitment missions for about a dozen characters and loyalty missions to match. And then there are the DLCs, all unrelated to the Collectors, and only one that really involved the Reapers.

 

That's not to say that the game was bad on its own, but Bioware really dug themselves into a hole here. The plot inertia of the first game came to a grinding halt while we were off fighting mercs, mechs, geth and monsters in the second and the main villains were off sitting on their hands waiting for the writing team to make them relevant. The Arrival DLC was meant to pick things up again... but in my honest opinion, the overall premise of Arrival is what Mass Effect 3 should have been from the start - stopping the Reapers at the gate. They could have expanded on and revised that premise to great effect, a 'la "This isn't about war, this is about survival." You don't go toe-to-toe with eldritch abominations, because they'll just squash you with their own toe. The whole point of the third game should have been to avoid the war of the actual third game, because there was no other way to win - and there shouldn't have been. The Crucible was an ad-hoc plot device with no prior foreshadowing, plain and simple.

[Liveshiptrader]

Having played the first ME before the second one came out, I was actually painfully aware of the odd disconnect between the two when I picked up ME2 at its launch. I felt disoriented on my first playthrough, like I was supposed to be doing something else while I was playing through all the (well-done in their own right) side stories and loyalty missions.

 

 

You could be right but personally thought the story or stories in 2 where far better

 

I thought Mass Effect 1 was an ok game, I never even bought 2 until after my friend went on about how good it was and now I consider it my current favourite game of all time. Although as you say each story my not have a strong connect to main plot that didn't matter to me but what did matter was how the characters where far less stiff, for example Garrus was just there in 1 but became an actual character in 2.

 

But I've lost a lot of faith in Bioware, just over a year ago I said there was no chance the Witcher was beating Dragon Age, Bioware does such a good job and now I struggle to finish DAI.

 

I can see it going the same way as dead space 3 and the writers seem more concerned with pushing a far left agenda than writing actual characters. 

 

There'a good chance that was the last DA game so here's to Mass Effect.

[mrjack]

I can see it going the same way as dead space 3 and the writers seem more concerned with pushing a far left agenda than writing actual characters. 

 

You mean like universal healthcare, fighting income inequality and protecting the environment? Don't see it myself. Or do you mean the acceptance and inclusion of minorities in their games? Because those aren't "leftist" ideals, those are just "decent people" ideals. 

[Lee T]

(...) So, what I am hoping for in the next ME is a game that catches all the goodness that was in the individual games of the old trilogy while making enough of a fresh start to maintain consistency in itself similar to ME1 back in the day. If that is the case, I think I can thoroughly enjoy a new ME game.

You summed up all my feelings about ME in this post.

You may even have given me a reason to play it again (I still can't play it since I finished ME3), you won an internet! :-)

[Element Zero]

You mean like universal healthcare, fighting income inequality and protecting the environment? Don't see it myself. Or do you mean the acceptance and inclusion of minorities in their games? Because those aren't "leftist" ideals, those are just "decent people" ideals.

I agree 100%. Still, DA in particular sometimes feels like a PSA more than a game. I think they can accomplish the same or better with a more natural, less heavy-handed approach.

[Display Name Owner]

I'm not that excited for ME4 because no Shepard. I've always felt and still do, that there's way more story to tell with Shepard.

The journey was rushed, but still far from over. They screwed it up with ME3.

Retcon ME3, get Shepard back, and we're good to go, and get the old crew back, most of them anyway.

 

Can't agree with that myself. Yeah, Shepard's background could have done with a bit more delving, especially the Colonist and Earth stories, but that's really not worth reshaping the entire series over. Honestly Shepard's whole role was to listen to other people's stories, his/her own hardly mattered at all, it was ours to RP for ourselves. I mean, the lack of attention Shepard dying and being revived two years later got away with kind of goes to show just how much Shepard's personal issues were worth.

[mrjack]

I agree 100%. Still, DA in particular sometimes feels like a PSA more than a game. I think they can accomplish the same or better with a more natural, less heavy-handed approach.

 

Because I've read a few of your comments and you always seem perfectly reasonable, I will reluctantly admit that they could use a little "nuance" in addressing social issues in their storytelling. That being said, I'd still rather they kept up this practice of being inclusive and being blunt about it than not including it at all just to appease intolerant gamers who complain about having these issues "shoved in their faces". Dorian's story line with his father seemed like treading old ground (and old tropes) to me because I've seen it in so many other forms of media but I can't think of a time where that story has been told in a video game. So... I guess what I'm saying is that I don't know if Bioware always gets it right but I'm glad they're trying and hope they continue.

[Element Zero]

Because I've read a few of your comments and you always seem perfectly reasonable, I will reluctantly admit that they could use a little "nuance" in addressing social issues in their storytelling. That being said, I'd still rather they kept up this practice of being inclusive and being blunt about it than not including it at all just to appease intolerant gamers who complain about having these issues "shoved in their faces". Dorian's story line with his father seemed like treading old ground (and old tropes) to me because I've seen it in so many other forms of media but I can't think of a time where that story has been told in a video game. So... I guess what I'm saying is that I don't know if Bioware always gets it right but I'm glad they're trying and hope they continue.

Thanks for the benefit of the doubt. I do try to see all sides.

I thought Dorian was awesome as soon as I met him, and really enjoyed his quest, despite the "been there, done that" some complained about. It felt like it fit the character and story, rather than feeling forced. That's all I want.

BioWare us definitely coming from a good place, so I appreciate the effort. You're correct that honest efforts are far better than no effort. They'll hopefully continue to blend their efforts into their stories in progressively better ways.