85 odpowiedzi w tym temacie

[Natureguy85]

I would argue that only Fenris and Anders are flat characters, used more for vehicles of their respective platforms on control of mages. I do wish they had been more fleshed out and not just differing viewpoints on the mage issue. Varric wasn't terribly deep but a decent character with conflict shown through Bartrand. I wonder if Bianca was going to appear in the Exalted Marches DLC, which would then have also provided more depth (not that I'm justifying character development relying on a DLC). As I mentioned, I think Aveline is a great companion, and I enjoy Isabella and Merrill. Merrill's story does suffer from the idiot ball a few times, but if I take her out of that context I can enjoy her.

 

With all that said, yes I do need to justify my like of the characters, and it shouldn't require so many justifications. And I honestly don't know if they would have changed at all with more development time; I think that time would have been spent more on plot and environments than additional character content.

 

The time skip is an issue and I can't claim confidence that Bio could have done it well even with more time. I do applaud them for trying something different. I agree that we should have seen more of the behind the scenes actions like Anders' decline and Hawke's rise. I also don't know why they made such large time gaps of three years. Really, Isabella was gone for three years, then shows up and everything is back to normal? Really, a romanced Fenris breaks it off and then three years later will come back if we haven't romanced anyone else in that time?

 

I think instead they should have framed the time change as gradual over the course of each act. There are the five main rumor quests in Act 1 before we can go on the expedition. Have each of those take place several months apart, and maybe have one of them take place before Varric meets Hawke, to demonstrate Hawke's growing reputation. Then have less of a time break between acts and show how the city has changed in that time. As it is, the city never changes, which I know what cut due to development time, but I always had trouble remembering which map I'd cleared because I had already explored it in a previous act and it looked identical.

 

What is Merrill beyond adorable, bumbling, naivete^'? Isabella being more than a pirate ****** is more done through her backstory than anything that happens in the game, though in fairness, she can return with the Qunari book if you have a good relationship with her. Varric lets on that he's more than just a story teller and I like him a lot, particularly his insights into Dwarf culture regarding the merchant's guild. I like the stuff with Bartrand too, as you mentioned. And Aveline is a law and order type. I did like the conversation when you give her Aveline's shield.

 

This is not to say they can't still be enjoyable. In fact, I love all the cross talk between these characters and marvel at how such individually boring characters can be so much fun together. I loved Varric letting on how much he was protecting Merril or Isabella giving her advice, or Anders complaining about her dealing with demons despite having one in him. While I hated hearing Anders and Fenris whine to me, I loved hearing them argue.

 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong because it's been a long time since I played, but I don't remember there being as much ability to influence these characters as there was in Origins. In the latter, you can turn Alistair from a bumbling fool into a strong and ready king. You can make Shale be at peace with having been a dwarf and even consider looking for a way to change back. You can make Morrigan question everything she's believed about people and emotions. I don't recall if and how you can affect some of the others, but I didn't really feel that in DA2 at all.

 

As for character development in a DLC, you're right but I'd say better late than never. While it should be in the main game, it's not too bad if we get a fully fleshed out DLC mission. Lair of the Shadow Broker was awesome and gave some more insight into the change in Liara, which was noticably lacking in the main ME2.

[niniendowarrior]

I liked DA2, sometimes more than DA: O, other times not really that much.  I still wholeheartedly recommend DA2 as it has given me many good moments, great fun, interesting combat, entertaining companions and lastly and especially, because it finally gave me a reason to care about DAI.

[Jeradon]

 

I think instead they should have framed the time change as gradual over the course of each act. There are the five main rumor quests in Act 1 before we can go on the expedition. Have each of those take place several months apart, and maybe have one of them take place before Varric meets Hawke, to demonstrate Hawke's growing reputation. Then have less of a time break between acts and show how the city has changed in that time. As it is, the city never changes, which I know what cut due to development time, but I always had trouble remembering which map I'd cleared because I had already explored it in a previous act and it looked identical.

I concur, the "chapter" division does not fit the narrative. We are told that things change, but we do not see it. The city looks unchanged (apart from the lighting maybe). Such a shortcoming reminds us that we are playing a game which lacked development time.

[vbibbi]

What is Merrill beyond adorable, bumbling, naivete^'? Isabella being more than a pirate ****** is more done through her backstory than anything that happens in the game, though in fairness, she can return with the Qunari book if you have a good relationship with her. Varric lets on that he's more than just a story teller and I like him a lot, particularly his insights into Dwarf culture regarding the merchant's guild. I like the stuff with Bartrand too, as you mentioned. And Aveline is a law and order type. I did like the conversation when you give her Aveline's shield.

This is not to say they can't still be enjoyable. In fact, I love all the cross talk between these characters and marvel at how such individually boring characters can be so much fun together. I loved Varric letting on how much he was protecting Merril or Isabella giving her advice, or Anders complaining about her dealing with demons despite having one in him. While I hated hearing Anders and Fenris whine to me, I loved hearing them argue.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong because it's been a long time since I played, but I don't remember there being as much ability to influence these characters as there was in Origins. In the latter, you can turn Alistair from a bumbling fool into a strong and ready king. You can make Shale be at peace with having been a dwarf and even consider looking for a way to change back. You can make Morrigan question everything she's believed about people and emotions. I don't recall if and how you can affect some of the others, but I didn't really feel that in DA2 at all.

As for character development in a DLC, you're right but I'd say better late than never. While it should be in the main game, it's not too bad if we get a fully fleshed out DLC mission. Lair of the Shadow Broker was awesome and gave some more insight into the change in Liara, which was noticably lacking in the main ME2.

Merrill has the contradiction of being sweet and bumbling but also willing to delve into forbidden magic and alienate herself to her clan for what she believes is right. Yeah, her subplot with Marethari leaves a bit to be desired, as it relies on everyone being stupid, but the deeper personality is evident through her actions.

For Isabella, the companion interactions you mention help provide some of her characterization, which I really enjoyed about the game. The companions don't rely solely on Hawke to reveal their personalities. One of the most memorable banters I remember is Merrill saying she wanted to be like Isabella and the latter firmly shutting her down, saying she's got a good heart and deserves better.

And we are able to influence the companions to a degree based on the friendship rivalry system. Yes, it's only two outcomes so it's still a linear progression, but both tracks shown different sides of the characters. In DAO we had the choice of hardening Alistair or Leliana, but otherwise the influence we had with companions was just approval or disapproval. And I don't think hardening Leliana actually had any later consequences.

I really liked how in the first two games the companions feel like friends of the PC, almost family in DA2. In DAI everyone outside of the currently romanced LI feels like an employee. Heck, some of the LIs still feel like coworkers.

[Natureguy85]

Merrill has the contradiction of being sweet and bumbling but also willing to delve into forbidden magic and alienate herself to her clan for what she believes is right. Yeah, her subplot with Marethari leaves a bit to be desired, as it relies on everyone being stupid, but the deeper personality is evident through her actions.

 

I find her dealings with demons to fall right in with her naive nature. She doesn't understand the danger of any situation.

[vbibbi]

I find her dealings with demons to fall right in with her naive nature. She doesn't understand the danger of any situation.

Well, I agree that her story wasn't one of the strongest in the game. She fell into the same issue all mages did in the game, namely that all mages were insane until proven innocent, and it was nigh impossible that any weren't guilty of holding the idiot ball. DA2 needed more mages and templars who weren't insane. Even Alain turns out to know blood magic and plots behind Hawke's back. I wish that insurgency against Meredith had been better handled, and they had contacted Hawke for assistance if we had consistently sides with mages or sought peace, rather than them being railroaded as another enemy proving no one in Kirkwall is worth saving.

[Natureguy85]

 I wish that insurgency against Meredith had been better handled, and they had contacted Hawke for assistance if we had consistently sides with mages or sought peace, rather than them being railroaded as another enemy proving no one in Kirkwall is worth saving.

 

Or if the plot had thrown in Hawke's face that he/she squashed the rebellion, an example of Templars and Mages working together, to save his/her sibling.

[vbibbi]

Or if the plot had thrown in Hawke's face that he/she squashed the rebellion, an example of Templars and Mages working together, to save his/her sibling.

Agreed. But given the circumstances, there was nothing else Hawke could do unless they were willing to let their sibling die. This is one of the highlights of the horribleness of Act 3 and some of the issues with the entire game. The one time templars and mages work together to try to improve their situation, they do so by acting just as crazy as their oppressors. Really? Did they think it was a good idea to harass the Champion of Kirkwall and use blood magic to threaten the life of a companion? I might...MIGHT make sense if they had mentioned that Circle!Bethany or Templar!Carver had somehow been about to reveal the rebellion to Meredith, maybe accidentally. But why would a Warden sibling -or other companion if the siblings are dead- make a good hostage, other than to ****** off the Champion who has spent seven years killing blood mages and templars?

 

Why would the templars in this rebellion be okay with the mages using blood magic at all? I would think the templars would be the rational ones saying "well, not ALL mages in the Circle can be using blood magic, Meredith is just paranoid" instead of "blood magic is getting a bad rap! And we're going to fight against our leader who is against it because she cites the actual harm done by blood mages as justification for all of her actions"

[Natureguy85]

Agreed. But given the circumstances, there was nothing else Hawke could do unless they were willing to let their sibling die. This is one of the highlights of the horribleness of Act 3 and some of the issues with the entire game. The one time templars and mages work together to try to improve their situation, they do so by acting just as crazy as their oppressors. Really? Did they think it was a good idea to harass the Champion of Kirkwall and use blood magic to threaten the life of a companion? I might...MIGHT make sense if they had mentioned that Circle!Bethany or Templar!Carver had somehow been about to reveal the rebellion to Meredith, maybe accidentally. But why would a Warden sibling -or other companion if the siblings are dead- make a good hostage, other than to ****** off the Champion who has spent seven years killing blood mages and templars?

 

Why would the templars in this rebellion be okay with the mages using blood magic at all? I would think the templars would be the rational ones saying "well, not ALL mages in the Circle can be using blood magic, Meredith is just paranoid" instead of "blood magic is getting a bad rap! And we're going to fight against our leader who is against it because she cites the actual harm done by blood mages as justification for all of her actions"

 

I'm not saying Hawke should do differently, I'm saying the plot should call him out or even punish him for it.

 

IIRC, they went after the sibling to draw out Hawke, whom they saw as helping Meredith. But aren't several people in it people you could have helped before? Particularly Thrask and the mages from that quest. If you'd helped them, why wouldn't they try and recruit Hawke?

 

Did they use blood magic in front of the Templars? I don't remember. I guess the Templars could think that even that wasn't worth the treatment the mages were getting.

[springacres]

I'm not saying Hawke should do differenty, I'm saying the plot should call him out or even punish him for it.

 

IIRC, they went after the sibling to draw out Hawke, whom they saw as helping Meredith. But aren't several people in it people you could have helped before? Particularly Thrask and the mages from that quest. If you'd helped them, why wouldn't they try and recruit Hawke?

 

Did they use blood magic in front of the Templars? I don't remember. I guess the Templars could think that even that wasn't worth the treatment the mages were getting.

Seconded so hard.  I remember being surprised and upset that there was NO recognition of how Hawke handled the encounters with Thrask in Acts 1 and 2 for this.

 

However, about the use of blood magic - we don't know at what point the sibling was rendered unconscious or who was there when Grace used blood magic to bind him/her.  In-game, IIRC, Grace only breaks out the visible blood magic when Samson shows up with the helmeted templars behind him.  (I say "visible" because she could well have been using some form of blood magic on Thrask to control his mind before Hawke showed up, something like Idunna does in Enemies Among Us, for instance.)

[vbibbi]

I'm not saying Hawke should do differently, I'm saying the plot should call him out or even punish him for it.

 

IIRC, they went after the sibling to draw out Hawke, whom they saw as helping Meredith. But aren't several people in it people you could have helped before? Particularly Thrask and the mages from that quest. If you'd helped them, why wouldn't they try and recruit Hawke?

 

Did they use blood magic in front of the Templars? I don't remember. I guess the Templars could think that even that wasn't worth the treatment the mages were getting.

Ah, it could be that they never used blood magic in front of the templars before, I'm not sure. It does seem like the templars would be intentionally oblivious, though, since the sibling is bound by a type of magic they can't dispel, and the mages seem to be from the Starkhaven circle, where the leader was clearly a maleficar and his lover claims not to have learned blood magic from him. That woman really annoyed me, since the game treats it as if Hawke is her enemy no matter what, even if we helped her escape the templars. And Meredith may be paranoid but she's not an idiot; why wouldn't she kill the ringleader's lover rather than randomly execute mages once the group is captured?

 

Seconded so hard.  I remember being surprised and upset that there was NO recognition of how Hawke handled the encounters with Thrask in Acts 1 and 2 for this.

 

However, about the use of blood magic - we don't know at what point the sibling was rendered unconscious or who was there when Grace used blood magic to bind him/her.  In-game, IIRC, Grace only breaks out the visible blood magic when Samson shows up with the helmeted templars behind him.  (I say "visible" because she could well have been using some form of blood magic on Thrask to control his mind before Hawke showed up, something like Idunna does in Enemies Among Us, for instance.)

Yeah, and when we run into Keran before this, he didn't know it was Hawke whom they were targeting. Clearly communication in this rebellion is not a priority, or else the leaders knew that dealing with Hawke would be a divisive decision. Really, just that whole plot line highlights the flaws in DA2's narrative, and is why I dislike Act 3 so much.