483 réponses à ce sujet

[mikeymoonshine]

Gaesesagai's comment might be aimed at the comments that people only dislike Vivienne because she is a woman.

 

It was still a generalization. Many illogical arguments have been made against Viv and her views, if they weren't being made I wouldn't be defending her seeing as i don't actually agree with her. 

 

Anyway as far as i am aware that person was saying female characters with strong opinions seem to get more haters than males. That may or may not be true but it's not the same as saying people only dislike her because she is a woman. 

[Rifneno]

Yeah, he actually does. I took him along on Iron Bulls quest and he chews out that elf for daring to think his life was better under the Qun as opposed to being a Tevinter slave.

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Yes. Dorian's totally being vindictive to the Inquisitor by trash talking the worst thing in Thedas.

Would you like a cookie?

[MrSnoozer]

Anyway as far as i am aware that person was saying female characters with strong opinions seem to get more haters than males. That may or may not be true but it's not the same as saying people only dislike her because she is a woman. 

 

its annoying how you can't criticize a Gender because someone somewhere will start spewing that you hate them due to 'Insert Gender' .

 

I hate Vivienne because of her character not Gender , i'd hate a male character who was similar also

[mikeymoonshine]

its annoying how you can't criticize a Gender because someone somewhere will start spewing that you hate them due to 'Insert Gender' .

 

I hate Vivienne because of her character not Gender , i'd hate a male character who was similar also

 

I'm not here to defend an argument someone else made, if you have a problem with it then take it up with the person who made it. 

[Lucky Thirteen]

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Yes. Dorian's totally being vindictive to the Inquisitor by trash talking the worst thing in Thedas.

Would you like a cookie?

 

What are you talking about, Dorian supports slavery. He's mad everyone else is trash talking one of the worst things in Thedas.

[Grieving Natashina]

Yeah, I want to echo this.  While I like the character Vivienne, gender isn't ever a reason why I dislike a character.  The many problems I have with Tallis, for example, have absolutely nothing to do with her gender.

[Texhnolyze101]

At least it's not hardened Leliana... *shudders*

 

Hardened Leliana is the best because she permanently gets rid of the idiots to stuck in the past to know any better.

[MrSnoozer]

For all my hate of Vivienee i wouldn't change her. hate is an emotional response like any other , we have it when wathcing movies/reading/etc , games should be no different.

 

Only time i would hate a character due to Gender if i felt they were forced into the story for the sake of diversity. I'd rather they scratch the whole story and make it feel more natural with the Gender.

[LobselVith8]

To be more precise, these people dislike women combined with traits that they love in male characters.

 

If characters like Vivienne and Sera as well as many other female characters, took on the gentle, soft, humble, more "appropriate" feminine behavior, they'd be much more popular.

 

edit: And to add, the writing quality for ALL of the companions in this game is horrible. They are all stagnant and all shallow and left unexplored. 

 

I think that completely misses why some people take issue with Vivienne and Sera, particularly as the latter will break up with your elven Inquisitor by giving her an ultimatum to give up her religion. I think if Vivienne took a more adult approach to an Inquisitor with an opposing opinion (like Cullen does), as her current reactions only makes her seem incredibly petty and immature, or didn't pretend to know more about the Dalish or Vashoth than an elven or qunari Inquisitor, perhaps opinion on her character might be more positive with some people who currently dislike Vivienne.

 

Frankly, I don't see people giving Sera a pass for her ultimatum to an elven Inquisitor to give up her religion if she was a man, nor do I think people would excuse Vivienne's immaturity towards an Inquisitor who has different ideological views than her, or her refusal to acknowledge her limited knowledge about the Dalish or the Vashoth, if she was a man.

 

I think it's incredibly disingenuous to suggest that people would like the characters more if they simply acted "softer", when that isn't the issue that people have expressed with either character.

[mikeymoonshine]

 or didn't pretend to know more about the Dalish or Vashoth than an elven or qunari Inquisitor, perhaps opinion on her character might be more positive with some people who currently dislike Vivienne.

 

 

Can you clarify what exactly it was she said about the dalish/vashoth that irked you so? 

[Lucky Thirteen]

 

Frankly, I don't see people giving Sera a pass for her ultimatum to an elven Inquisitor to give up her religion if she was a man, nor do I think people would excuse Vivienne's immaturity towards an Inquisitor who has different ideological views than her, or her refusal to acknowledge her limited knowledge about the Dalish or the Vashoth, if she was a man.

 

I think it's incredibly disingenuous to suggest that people would like the characters more if they simply acted "softer", when that isn't the issue that people have expressed with either character.

 

I'm looking at what people are saying about these characters. People don't just disagree with plot points that happen with them in the game. What people frequently repeat is that these characters are spoiled, rude, arrogant, childish, racist or oppressive. They say that these characters talk down to them, that these characters have opposing opinions they stubbornly won't change, and if you ask me, male characters share these same traits. Only with them it's seen as confidences, strength, and at times cute and funny.

 

I've had two people in this thread defend Dorian's support of slavery as some sort of superior opinion to Vivienne not wanting to reform the oppressive circles or the rigidness, strict life of the Qun. If you ask me, all these things are very restrictive and unpleasant horrible things in the Dragon Age world, but somehow Dorian is the only one that is in the right with what he says. As spoiled, rude, arrogant, and childish as he is, he somehow speaks the truth of the world. He is overall somehow spared a lot of fan rage besides occasional upset that he is gay, but that's a whole other issue.

[Rifneno]

Can someone get a mop so we can clean up the tumblr that spilled all over? Thanks.

[Lucky Thirteen]

Can someone get a mop so we can clean up the tumblr that spilled all over? Thanks.

 

Not yet, I haven't started posting pictures of Dorian's butt.

[Gaesesagai]

Yeah, he actually does. I took him along on Iron Bulls quest and he chews out that elf for daring to think his life was better under the Qun as opposed to being a Tevinter slave.

 

Well then you taking him with you was pointless because you didn't understand what he's saying. Either because your preconception prevented you or because you simply failed to comprehend the words.

In that scene Dorian doesn't argue that "tevinter slave" is better then "qun drone". He argues against the qun's insanity, while being passionate about it because the drone first attacks him (verbally). He reacts more to the Tevinter hate then anything else. Again, like always in his dialogues, he doesn't support slavery, he just seems to have nothing to say about it. Supoorting slavery would have meant that he had at least one freakin' line in the game where he says "slavery is good y'all". Which he doesn't. When you ask him about slavery he says "well your alienages? aren't those the same?" (not actual quote obviously). That doesn't mean he supports slavery. At most it means he hasn't thought about it. Which he admits. 

[mikeymoonshine]

I guess you could argue that Dorian is accepting of slavery. Despite being able to see many of the problems with Tervinter and wishing to change them for the better slavery does not appear among those problems for him, at least not yet. You could make a similar point about Iron Bull, he seems more in denial though. 

[Lucky Thirteen]

Well then you taking him with you was pointless because you didn't understand what he's saying. Either because your preconception prevented you or because you simply failed to comprehend the words.

In that scene Dorian doesn't argue that "tevinter slave" is better then "qun drone". He argues against the qun's insanity, while being passionate about it because the drone first attacks him (verbally). He reacts more to the Tevinter hate then anything else. Again, like always in his dialogues, he doesn't support slavery, he just seems to have nothing to say about it. Supoorting slavery would have meant that he had at least one freakin' line in the game where he says "slavery is good y'all". Which he doesn't. When you ask him about slavery he says "well your alienages? aren't those the same?" (not actual quote obviously). That doesn't mean he supports slavery. At most it means he hasn't thought about it. Which he admits. 

 

The inquisitor asks the elf how he joined the Qun and that elf expresses that the Qun freed him from Tevinter slavery. Dorian takes offense to that, that's when Dorian feels the need to join to conversation. Because to him, slavery in Tevinter is that drastically better than serving under the Qun. (For the record, my Inquisitor's response was that both are awful.)

 

Dorian says that slavery in Tevinter is better than the perpetually poverty elves have in the alienages in the rest of Thedas. Very much like a white supremacist saying black people had it better as slaves than the poverty they have now in slums. 

 

Being ignorant with these problems because he hasn't thought about it doesn't make Dorian any more innocent than Vivienne thinking the current states of the circle are perfect. 

 

 

I guess you could argue that Dorian is accepting of slavery. Despite being able to see many of the problems with Tervinter and wishing to change them for the better slavery does not appear among those problems for him, at least not yet. You could make a similar point about Iron Bull, he seems more in denial though. 

 

Don't get me started on Iron Bull. That character is a horrible, confusing mess.

[LobselVith8]

I'm looking at what people are saying about these characters. People don't just disagree with plot points that happen with them in the game. What people frequently repeat is that these characters are spoiled, rude, arrogant, childish, racist or oppressive. They say that these characters talk down to them, that these characters have opposing opinions they stubbornly won't change, and if you ask me, male characters share these same traits. Only with them it's seen as confidences, strength, and at times cute and funny.

 

I don't see it that way. Cullen disagrees about the mages and the templars, but he acts mature about it, and I don't have the same issue with Cullen that I do with Vivienne because of the difference between the characters. Cullen doesn't act petty about the fact that I'm playing as a character who doesn't share his views; he doesn't change his mind, but he respects that my character has their own opinion on the matter. He doesn't pull stunts simply to get a rise out of my character. He doesn't ignore what a Dalish or Vashoth tells him about their culture to pretend as though the rumors he's heard makes him more of an expert on their culture than the elven or qunari protagonist who actually lived through it.

 

Being prohibited from properly disagreeing with Vivienne (as the dialogue only allows her views to be expressed, and pretty much cuts you off from any genuine counter-argument) certainly doesn't help.

 

I'm also doubtful Sera's stunt of demanding that her Lavellan love interest give up her religion would be taken any better if it was done by a male love interest. Or her issues with elves in general.

 

I've had two people in this thread defend Dorian's support of slavery as some sort of superior opinion to Vivienne not wanting to reform the oppressive circles or the rigidness, strict life of the Qun. If you ask me, all these things are very restrictive and unpleasant horrible things in the Dragon Age world, but somehow Dorian is the only one that is in the right with what he says. As spoiled, rude, arrogant, and childish as he is, he somehow speaks the truth of the world. He is overall somehow spared a lot of fan rage besides occasional upset that he is gay, but that's a whole other issue.

 

From what I recall about the scene, wasn't that Dorian expressing that the Qun simply wasn't any better than slavery in Tevinter, rather than support for slavery? He also seemed to say that it took him travelling to southern Thedas to get a proper perspective on how it's viewed as repugnant, since Tevinter society sanctions it as something that most view as normal.

[Rifneno]

While we argue over how reasonable Dorian was being, let us not forget that she brought up this foolishness as a counterpoint to Vivienne hiring people to screw up Skyhold just to annoy you.

 

It's almost as if 13's comparisons are completely awful or something.

[Lintton]

She crossed the line by trying to use Dailish culture against me in an argument when I backed the mages. As Wynne and Anders can attest, I have a bad track record with keeping Captain Complainer alive.

[Lucky Thirteen]

I don't see it that way. Cullen disagrees about the mages and the templars, but he acts mature about it, and I don't have the same issue with Cullen that I do with Vivienne because of the difference between the characters. Cullen doesn't act petty about the fact that I'm playing as a character who doesn't share his views; he doesn't change his mind, but he respects that my character has their own opinion on the matter. He doesn't pull stunts simply to get a rise out of my character. He doesn't ignore what a Dalish or Vashoth tells him about their culture to pretend as though the rumors he's heard makes him more of an expert on their culture than the elven or qunari protagonist who actually lived through it.

 

Being prohibited from properly disagreeing with Vivienne (as the dialogue only allows her views to be expressed, and pretty much cuts you off from any genuine counter-argument) certainly doesn't help.

 

I'm also doubtful Sera's stunt of demanding that her Lavellan love interest give up her religion would be taken any better if it was done by a male love interest. Or her issues with elves in general.

 

Well, yeah, that's Cullen. He is a completely different personality to Vivienne. I'm saying, a character like Dorian, and even Solas at times, very prideful and powerful people, have very similar behaviors to Vivienne but don't get nearly as much flack as Vivienne does for it. Characters like Iron Bull, Oghren, Zevran, and Sera all sit in the same boat of behavior, but Sera is the one that gets flack for it.

 

 

From what I recall about the scene, wasn't that Dorian expressing that the Qun simply wasn't any better than slavery in Tevinter, rather than support for slavery? He also seemed to say that it took him travelling to southern Thedas to get a proper perspective on how it's viewed as repugnant, since Tevinter society sanctions it as something that most view as normal.

 

No, Dorian was not. Even when my Inquisitor said they both are not very great ways of life, I took a hit to Dorian's approval rating as well as Iron Bulls. Going to take that option every time, they can both kiss my butt. 

[DetcelferVisionary]

Because Darling , let me tell you how i know better because darling your small mind can't comprehend the fact that i like things how they were. Darling i know best.

 

Also Darling i'm one of the most attractive female companions who is just simply beyond your reach Darling

 

Ah,  the truth is out.  You dislike her because you can't shag her.  

 

Maker forbid that anyone thinks highly of them-self and wishes to keep up appearances because of fear of how someone might perceive them.  

 

Personally I found the dialogue between Cole and Vivienne VERY interesting.  The fear people have in the face of a woman who commands respect is hilarious.

 

Am I the only one who loves a good character even if I don't agree with every single thing they say?  Good grief!  

 

To stay with the spirit of the season...  I offer you:

 

[LobselVith8]

Well, yeah, that's Cullen. He is a completely different personality to Vivienne. I'm saying, a character like Dorian, and even Solas at times, very prideful and powerful people, have very similar behaviors to Vivienne but don't get nearly as much flack as Vivienne does for it. Characters like Iron Bull, Oghren, Zevran, and Sera all sit in the same boat of behavior, but Sera is the one that gets flack for it.

 

Cullen is different, but he's a supporter of the templars, and I've noticed that even pro-mages like Xil get along with him because he doesn't mistreat the main character due to ideological differences like Vivienne does - pulling stunts, making belligerent remarks, being extremely condescending simply because the Inquisitor doesn't share her views. In fact, Solas is willing to hear out Lavellan, even about issues they disagree on. Again, I don't see any merit to the claim that people simply dislike Vivienne simply because she's a woman. You may not share in their reasons, but you're certainly entitled to your own opinion about the character.

 

Sera's attitude about the elves, and her breaking up with Lavellan if she won't give up her religion, makes her a very different case than your other examples.

 

No, Dorian was not. Even when my Inquisitor said they both are not very great ways of life, I took a hit to Dorian's approval rating as well as Iron Bulls. Going to take that option every time, they can both kiss my butt. 

 

Which could mean he sees the Qun as worse, not that he sanctions slavery. Is there actually a line where he supports slavery?

[Rifneno]

Personally I found the dialogue between Cole and Vivienne VERY interesting.  The fear people have in the face of a woman who commands respect is hilarious.

You seem confused. The person shown to be afraid when Cole starts rattling off the thoughts is Vivienne. She's terrified people won't respect her - and she should be, since she got her "respect" by spreading her legs for the first noble with poor taste. Remind me again, what does it say is her greatest fear in the Fade?

Oh right. Irrelevance.
 

Am I the only one who loves a good character even if I don't agree with every single thing they say?  Good grief!

Yes, but please keep on topic, we're talking about Vivienne. A poor written character with poorly written dialogue that precludes any intelligent disagreement.

[mikeymoonshine]

I don't see it that way. Cullen disagrees about the mages and the templars, but he acts mature about it, and I don't have the same issue with Cullen that I do with Vivienne because of the difference between the characters. Cullen doesn't act petty about the fact that I'm playing as a character who doesn't share his views; he doesn't change his mind, but he respects that my character has their own opinion on the matter. He doesn't pull stunts simply to get a rise out of my character. He doesn't ignore what a Dalish or Vashoth tells him about their culture to pretend as though the rumors he's heard makes him more of an expert on their culture than the elven or qunari protagonist who actually lived through it..

 

Well Cullen is an Adviser, it's not really his job to go off on one. There are plenty of characters who can be disrespectful towards you and your views if you irritate them enough. Some of them don't even need that Solas will be immediately hostile towards your character if you are Dalish and some of the things he says to and about Sera are kind of awful. Blackwall can be incredibly judgmental to the inquisitor (which is incredibly hypocritical in his case), Dorian is very arrogant, he just talks down to you in a much nicer way. 

 

Sure Vivienne is more petty and it's easier for her to dislike you but she doesn't require you to make all the decisions she would make, you can get a lot of approval from her even if you disagree with her if you pick certain dialogue options. 

 

and again I am still not sure what you are referring to when it comes to her pretending to know more about the dalish/vashoth. if it's what I think it is then I am pretty sure you are making a mountain out of a molehill. 

[Akkos]

So this is still all the reason for people to hate Vivienne being a "woman", bald, strong-headed, vile-sounded, power-hungry????, inmature???....really?

 

To be frank as far as I remember, people started hating Vivienne even before she opened her mouth.

 

What they want are puppets, those who doesn't not complain about almost anything.