483 réponses à ce sujet

[MACharlie1]

So this is still all the reason for people to hate Vivienne being a "woman", bald, strong-headed, vile-sounded, power-hungry????, inmature???....really?

 

To be frank as far as I remember, people started hating Vivienne even before she opened her mouth.

 

What they want are puppets, those who doesn't not complain about almost anything.

I wouldn't say complain but they want companions who don't disagree with them. Shame really that fans can't tell the difference between a bad character and a character they don't agree with. 

[Rifneno]

So this is still all the reason for people to hate Vivienne being a "woman", bald, strong-headed, vile-sounded, power-hungry????, inmature???....really?
 
To be frank as far as I remember, people started hating Vivienne even before she opened her mouth.
 
What they want are puppets, those who doesn't not complain about almost anything.

You seem lost. The "U R JUST WANT EVERY1 AGREE WITH U" meeting is over in the Sera threads.

[Pewps]

Well Cullen is an Adviser, it's not really his job to go off on one. There are plenty of characters who can be disrespectful towards you and your views if you irritate them enough. Some of them don't even need that Solas will be immediately hostile towards your character if you are Dalish and some of the things he says to and about Sera are kind of awful. Blackwall can be incredibly judgmental to the inquisitor (which is incredibly hypocritical in his case), Dorian is very arrogant, he just talks down to you in a much nicer way. 

 

The thing about Solas being rude to a Dalish is that there's an option to call him out on it, for which he admits he got ahead of himself. When Dorian is rude, he will also often admit that it was unworthy of him. No such instances exist with Vivienne. Unless you agree with her sentiments, conversations are set up for her to always have the last word and for your Inquisitor to look like an idiot. I would have no problem with her character if I could at least argue points with her, but as it stands, the Inquisitor is just a punching bag for her if he or she is for Mage freedom.

[Dollores]

Bioware writers must have so much fun reading character threads!

 

I say that because, as a writer, it must be so pleasing to see people taking your characters as their own and spilling all kinds of thoughts on how they should think, talk, act, etc.. We seem to expect so much from them, they (and their interactions with the player) must be as consistent as our minds demand them to be, otherwise... poorly written. It's ironic, because this consistency isn't really a thing in real life itself, ha! As painful as it is, we must understand that they are characters in a video game, with heightened personality traits that give them some flavor, in an attempt to make them less boring than a real person is. So of course there will be extremism, exaggeration and Madame de Fer moving your terrible furniture around alongside mad templars and terrorist mages..... it is part of it and we can't really scrutinize every detail for consistency, otherwise what would be the point of making a fantasy world?  

 

On a second note, you gotta give some credit to the writers, while I don't want to say anything about other people's opinions on them, as everyone who buys the game is sort of entitled to judge their work. I do feel like the characters in this game, specially Sera and Vivienne are very thought provoking (as demonstrated by the thread) and to me that is one of their goals when making them, so congrats!

[Rifneno]

The thing about Solas being rude to a Dalish is that there's an option to call him out on it, for which he admits he got ahead of himself. When Dorian is rude, he will also often admit that it was unworthy of him. No such instances exist with Vivienne. Unless you agree with her sentiments, conversations are set up for her to always have the last word and for your Inquisitor to look like an idiot. I would have no problem with her character if I could at least argue points with her, but as it stands, the Inquisitor is just a punching bag for her if he or she is for Mage freedom.

And this is why, contrary to popular belief, Vivienne is not well written. In fact, she is very poorly written. I've seen fan mods do a much better job of character dialogue. Railroading all the conversations so that your character always "wins" is not the sign of quality writing.

[DetcelferVisionary]

You seem confused. The person shown to be afraid when Cole starts rattling off the thoughts is Vivienne. She's terrified people won't respect her - and she should be, since she got her "respect" by spreading her legs for the first noble with poor taste. Remind me again, what does it say is her greatest fear in the Fade?

Oh right. Irrelevance.
 

Yes, but please keep on topic, we're talking about Vivienne. A poor written character with poorly written dialogue that precludes any intelligent disagreement.

 

Of course Vivienne is afraid.  People who are obsessed with self image typically are. Every character was obviously designed around a particular theme for what motivates them. Didn't realize that a character you dislike by default means that she's "horribly written".  Interestingly,  I find your snarkyness very much similar to Vivs.  You sure you two arnt related or perhaps you're just uncomfortable with someone who behaves as you do?  Either way,  this conversation between us isn't going to go anywhere so have at it with whatever reply you want, you won't be getting another one back from me.  

[mikeymoonshine]

The thing about Solas being rude to a Dalish is that there's an option to call him out on it, for which he admits he got ahead of himself. When Dorian is rude, he will also often admit that it was unworthy of him. No such instances exist with Vivienne. Unless you agree with her sentiments, conversations are set up for her to always have the last word and for your Inquisitor to look like an idiot. I would have no problem with her character if I could at least argue points with her, but as it stands, the Inquisitor is just a punching bag for her if he or she is for Mage freedom.

 

I'm not saying I disagree with that but that's not really about her character that's about the responses you are allowed. I dunno why they chose to do it that way, that said there are some ways to disagree with her and not lose a bunch of approval. She quite likes thoughtful suggestions and alternative ideas as long as they are sensible. 

[Akkos]

You seem lost. The "U R JUST WANT EVERY1 AGREE WITH U" meeting is over in the Sera threads.

 

See arrogant people like this wants puppets....

 

They sound worse than Vivienne.... Do not accept positive argument about a topic and defend conclusions extracted from nothing.

[Lucky Thirteen]

Cullen is different, but he's a supporter of the templars, and I've noticed that even pro-mages like Xil get along with him because he doesn't mistreat the main character due to ideological differences like Vivienne does - pulling stunts, making belligerent remarks, being extremely condescending simply because the Inquisitor doesn't share her views. In fact, Solas is willing to hear out Lavellan, even about issues they disagree on. Again, I don't see any merit to the claim that people simply dislike Vivienne simply because she's a woman. You may not share in their reasons, but you're certainly entitled to your own opinion about the character.

 

Sera's attitude about the elves, and her breaking up with Lavellan if she won't give up her religion, makes her a very different case than your other examples.

 

Again, Cullen is a completely different character. Solas told my qunari Inquisitor that he thought'd she'd be nothing but a stupid beast and then took offense to the fact she didn't feel special or changed with the elven anchor in her hand. I would have loved it if she could express that her life was worse, perhaps that was an option I missed. It's like he was fishing to see if her life had been improved by what he considered such a "blessing" and was greatly disappointed in her as a result. Then there was that fight about turning Cole into a human.

 

I'm not saying, people hate her simply because she's a woman. People hate her because she is a that woman has traits they prefer men to have. She disagrees, she sees things differently, she supports a horrible way of life, she doesn't fall in line and obey. The same goes for Sera.

 

 

 

Which could mean he sees the Qun as worse, not that he sanctions slavery. Is there actually a line where he supports slavery?

 

He sees slavery as a better way of life over the qun. Just like he says, elves in Tevinter have it better in slavery than the elves in the rest of Thedas that are regulated to alienages. How is not that being in support slavery. Yeah, he's not hanging banners around Skyhold in support of slavery, but he seems to believe it's good. He doesn't even register the fact that the experience that elf had was so bad that he took to the Qun instead. He just considers the elf ignorant of his own personal experiences. 

[Lintton]

All I knew of Vivienne before playing the game was that there was this mage with a clown hat named Sera in the game.

[Dark Helmet]

They're just salty that Viv is more awesome than their failquisitors.

[Zeroth Angel]

To be more precise, these people dislike women combined with traits that they love in male characters.

 

If characters like Vivienne and Sera as well as many other female characters, took on the gentle, soft, humble, more "appropriate" feminine behavior, they'd be much more popular.

 

edit: And to add, the writing quality for ALL of the companions in this game is horrible. They are all stagnant and all shallow and left unexplored. 

 

 

So this is still all the reason for people to hate Vivienne being a "woman", bald, strong-headed, vile-sounded, power-hungry????, inmature???....really?

 

To be frank as far as I remember, people started hating Vivienne even before she opened her mouth.

 

What they want are puppets, those who doesn't not complain about almost anything.

 

Seriously? Gender arguments? 

[Pewps]

People hate her because she is a that woman has traits they prefer men to have. She disagrees, she sees things differently, she supports a horrible way of life, she doesn't fall in line and obey. The same goes for Sera.

 

Cassandra also has a ton of traits that men are supposed to have, and most of everyone loves her.

[Ryzaki]

The thing about Solas being rude to a Dalish is that there's an option to call him out on it, for which he admits he got ahead of himself. When Dorian is rude, he will also often admit that it was unworthy of him. No such instances exist with Vivienne. Unless you agree with her sentiments, conversations are set up for her to always have the last word and for your Inquisitor to look like an idiot. I would have no problem with her character if I could at least argue points with her, but as it stands, the Inquisitor is just a punching bag for her if he or she is for Mage freedom.

 

BioWare does this a lot with certain characters (Tallis, Morrigan, Vivienne). It's just annoying.

[DetcelferVisionary]

They're just salty that Viv is more awesome than their failquisitors.

 

[Lucky Thirteen]

Cassandra also has a ton of traits that men are supposed to have, and most of everyone loves her.

 

Hate to break it to you, but there are a lot of "she's actually a man" and "she's way too butch" comments circling the threads. 

[Akkos]

Seriously? Gender arguments? 

 

It's all about gender actually and they are very few in this game.  The most loved characters in game are male..either because they have fans or female characters are viewed as sluts, bitches, wenches....   

[Zeroth Angel]

It's all about gender actually and they are very few in this game.  The most loved characters in game are male..either because they have fans or female characters are viewed as sluts, bitches, wenches....   

What? I haven't seen anyone call any of the LI's that here on the forum.

 

Besides, Cass is my 2nd favorite companion.

[LobselVith8]

Well Cullen is an Adviser, it's not really his job to go off on one. There are plenty of characters who can be disrespectful towards you and your views if you irritate them enough. Some of them don't even need that Solas will be immediately hostile towards your character if you are Dalish and some of the things he says to and about Sera are kind of awful. Blackwall can be incredibly judgmental to the inquisitor (which is incredibly hypocritical in his case), Dorian is very arrogant, he just talks down to you in a much nicer way. 

 

It does address one example where some people get along with a character who doesn't share their character's point of view, however, which was brought up earlier in the thread where some people felt the Circle was the pressing issue that caused some people to dislike her. I also played as a Dalish character, and I got along with Solas because I was actually allowed to disagree with him, and because he was willing to hear me out instead of talking over me.

 

Frankly, I didn't have this issue with Blackwall or Dorian. Blackwall was pretty humble about the fact that the Inquisitor turned out to be an elf, and promptly apologized that the thought even came to mind. He also listened when Lavellan told him that he wasn't the Herald. Dorian is certainly sarcastic, but he promptly agreed when my Dalish mage told him he could keep up. He also lets his guard down in the scene with his father, and it comes across like he's putting up a wall due to what happened when his father discovered he was gay. I'm sure your mileage may vary, but the characters and interactions are simply different than the ones with Vivienne.

 

Also, considering what Sera says about the elves, it's understandable why Solas would have an issue with her. I don't hate Sera's character, but I do take issue with some of the things she says.

 

Sure Vivienne is more petty and it's easier for her to dislike you but she doesn't require you to make all the decisions she would make, you can get a lot of approval from her even if you disagree with her if you pick certain dialogue options.

 

Sure, but her general attitude and her stunts are going to make some people dislike her, as well as the writer's choice to prevent people from disagreeing with her. Even Iron Bull and Blackwall (in some dialogues) are basically prohibited from taking her to task.

 

and again I am still not sure what you are referring to when it comes to her pretending to know more about the dalish/vashoth. if it's what I think it is then I am pretty sure you are making a mountain out of a molehill. 

 

The dialogues where the Dalish or Vashoth can talk with her about their magic and culture.

 

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion about Vivienne and these scenes, of course. Everyone is going to have their own impression about the characters. Cullen, to my surprise, is someone I came to trust, while Vivienne simply earned my ire.

[Rifneno]

I give it 3 pages before one of these tumblrinas says "cishet." Anyone want to start a pool?

[Gaesesagai]

The inquisitor asks the elf how he joined the Qun and that elf expresses that the Qun freed him from Tevinter slavery. Dorian takes offense to that, that's when Dorian feels the need to join to conversation. Because to him, slavery in Tevinter is that drastically better than serving under the Qun. (For the record, my Inquisitor's response was that both are awful.)

 

Dorian says that slavery in Tevinter is better than the perpetually poverty elves have in the alienages in the rest of Thedas. Very much like a white supremacist saying black people had it better as slaves than the poverty they have now in slums. 

 

Being ignorant with these problems because he hasn't thought about it doesn't make Dorian any more innocent than Vivienne thinking the current states of the circle are perfect. 

 

 

 

Don't get me started on Iron Bull. That character is a horrible, confusing mess.

 

Wow, so you shamelessly lie. Good character. Gonna post exactly the dialogue, a link to a youtube vid I found of the dialogue and then add you to ignore. It's one thing to argue with someone who struggles to come up with reason and fails and another thing to argue with someone who just pulls stuff out of their ass and doesn't have the decency to admit that maybe they don't know or in this case remember.

 

Gatt: The Tevinter Imperium is bad enough without the influence of this Venatori Cult.

Dorian: Yes. Filthy, decadent brutes, the lot of them. I'm certain life would be much better for all of us under the Qun.

Gatt: It was for me, after the qunari rescued me from slavery in Tevinter. I was eight. The Qun isn't perfect, but it gave me a better life.

Dorian: Yes, one free from all that pointless free will and independent thought. Such an improvement.

 

And here is the link:

https://www.youtube....h?v=TYswH8NgLnA

 

Now compare both with your blatant and shameless lie. Ugh. Honestly, people like you, it just boggles the mind.

[skotie]

He sees slavery as a better way of life over the qun. Just like he says, elves in Tevinter have it better in slavery than the elves in the rest of Thedas that are regulated to alienages. How is not that being in support slavery. Yeah, he's not hanging banners around Skyhold in support of slavery, but he seems to believe it's good. He doesn't even register the fact that the experience that elf had was so bad that he took to the Qun instead. He just considers the elf ignorant of his own personal experiences. 

I think Dorian just has a skewed perception on the matter of slavery. He already has enough reason to dislike his family, but he does have much love for his homeland. I'm sure others like his family exist in Tevinter and they treat their slaves quite well, which to him is certainly better than if they were homeless beggars.

 

I'm not certain I would say he openly supports slavery, but he certainly isn't against it. If he were, why would he not insist his family and others that their slaves be freed and offered jobs as live in servants?

[Ryzaki]

Ugh I didn't hear that dialogue...that actually makes me feel embarrassed for him. 

 

This is why I wish we could've played a city elf man. That "it's better to be a slave than poor." could've been ended right quick.

[Lucky Thirteen]

Wow, so you shamelessly lie. Good character. Gonna post exactly the dialogue, a link to a youtube vid I found of the dialogue and then add you to ignore. It's one thing to argue with someone who struggles to come up with reason and fails and another thing to argue with someone who just pulls stuff out of their ass and doesn't have the decency to admit that maybe they don't know or in this case remember.

 

Gatt: The Tevinter Imperium is bad enough without the influence of this Venatori Cult.

Dorian: Yes. Filthy, decadent brutes, the lot of them. I'm certain life would be much better for all of us under the Qun.

Gatt: It was for me, after the qunari rescued me from slavery in Tevinter. I was eight. The Qun isn't perfect, but it gave me a better life.

Dorian: Yes, one free from all that pointless free will and independent thought. Such an improvement.

 

And here is the link:

https://www.youtube....h?v=TYswH8NgLnA

 

Now compare both with your blatant and shameless lie. Ugh. Honestly, people like you, it just boggles the mind.

 

He literally is saying that slavery is preferable than the Qun. He is literally taking offense to the fact someone found the Qun better than being a slave in Tevinter. He is literally offended by that. That is the elf's problem with Tevinter, is that he was a slave and it was awful. Dorian is offended by that.

 

I don't see how I'm lying about that.

 

I'm actually thrilled you went out of your way to find this cause, let's add the fact Dorian seems to think slaves in Tevinter have pointless free will and thought. My god. It's worse than I remember.

 

Man if Fenris was introduced to Dorian, the endless arguments would put Fenris and Anders fights to shame.

[Ryzaki]

Man if Fenris was introduced to Dorian, the endless arguments would put Fenris and Anders fights to shame.

 

What argument? Fenris would shove his fist through Dorian's chest and that'd be the end of it.