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Why do a lot of people hate Vivienne?


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#276
Amirit

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I'm not saying, people hate her simply because she's a woman. People hate her because she is a that woman has traits they prefer men to have. She disagrees, she sees things differently, she supports a horrible way of life, she doesn't fall in line and obey. The same goes for Sera.

 

 

Honestly, this is the case when someone has to tell "please, stop talk for your opponents and try to listen what they are actually saying". It was told many times that the problem is not Vivienne herself but the fact that you totally loose control over your own character around her. My calm busy Inquisitor would not even notice movers yet along make a big fuss about it. Reaction would be "whatever, madam Le Fer". For others it would be ordering movers to put everything back where it was before - but no! No matter who you are playing your Inquisitor will somehow deeply troubled by moving furniture around and cry in helpless anger while Vivienne make a big point about her power to do as she pleased. WHY?!

 

You do not loose your wit around Solas or Dorian, yet Vivienne is exception. Not as a woman, but as a character.   


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#277
LobselVith8

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Again, Cullen is a completely different character. Solas told my qunari Inquisitor that he thought'd she'd be nothing but a stupid beast and then took offense to the fact she didn't feel special or changed with the elven anchor in her hand. I would have loved it if she could express that her life was worse, perhaps that was an option I missed. It's like he was fishing to see if her life had been improved by what he considered such a "blessing" and was greatly disappointed in her as a result. Then there was that fight about turning Cole into a human.

 

Of course Cullen is a different character, but considering he's also pro-templar, the fact that some pro-mages actually come to like him would suggest that there's more to it than Vivienne's ideological position on the Circles and the templars.

 

I'm not saying, people hate her simply because she's a woman. People hate her because she is a that woman has traits they prefer men to have. She disagrees, she sees things differently, she supports a horrible way of life, she doesn't fall in line and obey. The same goes for Sera.

 

I think many people would feel the same way about Vivienne and Sera if the two were men.

 

He sees slavery as a better way of life over the qun. Just like he says, elves in Tevinter have it better in slavery than the elves in the rest of Thedas that are regulated to alienages. How is not that being in support slavery. Yeah, he's not hanging banners around Skyhold in support of slavery, but he seems to believe it's good. He doesn't even register the fact that the experience that elf had was so bad that he took to the Qun instead. He just considers the elf ignorant of his own personal experiences. 

 

Given the history between Tevinter and Qunari society (particularly Dorian pointing out to Iron Bull how some Qunari enjoy "butchering [his] people"), I think he's more inclined than most to have a strongly negative view of the Qun.



#278
Kersh

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Because she is a Pro Enslavement mage. At least Cassandra who is pro Templar sees the reality of mages not being so bad hell she even fell in love with a mage. 

Vivienne  I don't think I gained approval with her at all. she bothered me during my mage character however when I play a warrior and act a little more pro templar I'll probably like her more.



#279
Rifneno

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What argument? Fenris would shove his fist through Dorian's chest and that'd be the end of it.


I've got just the thing for that knife-ear.

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#280
mikeymoonshine

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Frankly, I didn't have this issue with Blackwall or Dorian. Blackwall was pretty humble about the fact that the Inquisitor turned out to be an elf, and promptly apologized that the thought even came to mind. He also listened when Lavellan told him that he wasn't the Herald. Dorian is certainly sarcastic, but he promptly agreed when my Dalish mage told him he could keep up. He also lets his guard down in the scene with his father, and it comes across like he's putting up a wall due to what happened when his father discovered he was gay. I'm sure your mileage may vary, but the characters and interactions are simply different than the ones with Vivienne.

 

I'm not bashing these characters but your experiences are due to playing a character who agrees with them on most things and you probably share the views of your character more or less. Dorian believes circles are idiotic and states pretty clearly that it would be stupid to reinstate them. Blackwall has a bunch of idealistic beliefs and opinions (some of which are wrong) but he will judge you for not sharing them, like if you aren't a fan of the wardens for example. 

 

I don't think you actually get the option to challenge either of them all that much on these opinions. 

 

 

Also, considering what Sera says about the elves, it's understandable why Solas would have an issue with her. I don't hate Sera's character, but I do take issue with some of the things she says.

 

It's not her beliefs he takes issue with though it's her lifestyle. He pretty clearly states that she isn't what she should be, this is exactly the attitude that caused her to dislike elves in the first place. She should be able to choose who she is even if she chooses to be an idiot and Solas is wrong despite who he is and despite what he knows. 

 

 

Sure, but her general attitude and her stunts are going to make some people dislike her, as well as the writer's choice to prevent people from disagreeing with her. Even Iron Bull and Blackwall (in some dialogues) are basically prohibited from taking her to task.

 

As someone already stated Bioware does this a lot. You can disagree with her but you can't argue with her (much) I'm not sure why. Solas and Cole can take her to task though as can Dorian a bit, IB has a reason for not standing up to her. 



#281
Ryzaki

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I've got just the thing for that knife-ear.

weaksauce_zps10ded061.png

 

Da hell.

 

:lol:



#282
Lillian Sword-Maiden

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My Inquisitor may be a Dalish Elf Mage, but she doesn't think the world would be so great if the Chantry actually fell apart. Plus, putting a mage on the Sunburst Throne is awesome! <3

 

I personally think Viv is awsome, I don't use her much since I prefer Solas (mhmm <3) and my Inquisitor is a Knight Enchanter, but I like her fashion sense, and how motivated she is. Plus I love it when she calls people Darling. My dad likes her cause she's pretty. :D


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#283
Lucky Thirteen

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I bet, if Dorian were to meet Fenris, Dorian will realize he recognizes Fenris from a party somewhere and wonder why Fenris would want to leave the privileged position he had with Danarius. 

 

 

I think many people would feel the same way about Vivienne and Sera if the two were men.

 

My whole argument is that there are men that have the same personality traits as Viv and Sera and people do love them. There are men like them in this game series, in other game series and tv shows and movies and books. But these men are approved and allowed with these behaviors. Women are not generally well recieved when they have the same behaviors. 



#284
Ryzaki

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Eh the only reason I'm okay with Solas' personality is because of who he is.

 

I'm willing to overlook a lot of laws when someone's

Spoiler



#285
LostInReverie19

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She's conceited, self-righteous, condescending, and convinced that her worldview is the only valid one.

 

She's basically a mirror for the BSN.

 

You got it exactly. Her views on mages are repulsive. Her whole view that mages should be confined to Circles while she gets to live in a palace and sleep with a Duke are sickeningly hypocritical. She'd crush every other mage, or anyone else for that matter, in her way to get ahead.



#286
Amirit

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My whole argument is that there are men that have the same personality traits as Viv and Sera and people do love them. There are men like them in this game series, in other game series and tv shows and movies and books. But these men are approved and allowed with these behaviors. Women are not generally well recieved when they have the same behaviors. 

 

Please, name those men! With the same traits and same behavior from our protagonist around them.


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#287
DracoAngel

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because she's a stuck-up b***h. She has this high and mighty attitude like she's the Maker's gift to man-kind. If her nose was turned up anymore she would drown when it rained (which would be bad cause almost everywhere you go in Ferelden it seems to be raining. Wait... I could use this to my advantage...). All she does is pick-pick-pick at people and what is wrong with them, down to the smallest of things. Every time she opens her mouth I want to punch her in it just to take her down a peg.

 

I HATE snobs. And that's all she is.



#288
OG Swift

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I like Vivienne the way she is.. she (at least) makes sense. You know exactly what to say to please her or what to say to annoy her (unlike for Sera or Cole). I would like to romance her but I accept the fact that she is unavailable for romance (we got Josie instead).

 

I share her opinion on Circles of Magi (I also supported Cassandra for Divine to preserve Circles and Chantry they way we know it), I personally tend to be arrogant, Mr Know-It-All etc.

 

So all in all - I do like Vivienne.



#289
MACharlie1

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because she's a stuck-up b***h. She has this high and mighty attitude like she's the Maker's gift to man-kind. If her nose was turned up anymore she would drown when it rained (which would be bad cause almost everywhere you go in Ferelden it seems to be raining. Wait... I could use this to my advantage...). All she does is pick-pick-pick at people and what is wrong with them, down to the smallest of things. Every time she opens her mouth I want to punch her in it just to take her down a peg.

 

I HATE snobs. And that's all she is.

And does this make her a bad character? Or just a character that you wouldn't get along with? 


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#290
heretica

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I like her. She's like a motherly figure to my Trevelyan mage. 


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#291
LobselVith8

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I bet, if Dorian were to meet Fenris, Dorian will realize he recognizes Fenris from a party somewhere and wonder why Fenris would want to leave the privileged position he had with Danarius.

 

I think there's a difference between viewing the Qunari lifestyle as abhorrent, and endorsing slavery.

 

My whole argument is that there are men that have the same personality traits as Viv and Sera and people do love them. There are men like them in this game series, in other game series and tv shows and movies and books. But these men are approved and allowed with these behaviors. Women are not generally well recieved when they have the same behaviors. 

 

Except the context and reason why some people take issue with Sera and Vivienne would be lost if we're taking about wholly different characters and situations, regardless of their gender in those situations. You're truncating all the reasons why some take issue with these two characters into an singular issue of gender, and it sidelines all of the reasons that have repeatedly been mentioned in this thread.



#292
MACharlie1

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I think there's a difference between viewing the Qunari lifestyle as abhorrent, and endorsing slavery.

 

 

Except the context and reason why some people take issue with Sera and Vivienne would be lost if we're taking about wholly different characters and situations, regardless of their gender in those situations. You're truncating all the reasons why some take issue with these two characters into an singular issue of gender sidelines all of the reasons that have repeatedly been mentioned in this thread.

Dorian has an earlier conversation about slavery. Basically it boils down to is that not every slave owner is the abusive types that Daenerius was - that the majority of slaves lived comfortable lives. He wasn't necessarily endorsing it - he was providing the alternate view. I can't recall if he said if he personally supports it or not but he does talk about it in a realistic manner.



#293
Hazegurl

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He literally is saying that slavery is preferable than the Qun. He is literally taking offense to the fact someone found the Qun better than being a slave in Tevinter. He is literally offended by that. That is the elf's problem with Tevinter, is that he was a slave and it was awful. Dorian is offended by that.

 

I don't see how I'm lying about that.

 

I'm actually thrilled you went out of your way to find this cause, let's add the fact Dorian seems to think slaves in Tevinter have pointless free will and thought. My god. It's worse than I remember.

 

Man if Fenris was introduced to Dorian, the endless arguments would put Fenris and Anders fights to shame.

I don't like Dorian's view on slavery in Tevinter because he comes from the upperclass. However, he is willing to concede to acknowledging that both are wrong and there isn't an approval hit from either him or Bull.  Personally, I don't see a difference between slavery in Tevinter and the Qun. They are tools being used, and neither have free will to decide their course in life. I find it funny that Gatt even has a preference. But I guess the Qun is a little better, all you have to do is mindlessly obey to not be given Qumek and thrown into the mines whereas you always run the risk of ending up as blood mage stew in Tevinter.

 

IMO, I just see it as Dorian lashing out in blind defense of his country. But yeah, Dorian wasn't looking too good there.

 

 

Honestly, this is the case when someone has to tell "please, stop talk for your opponents and try to listen what they are actually saying". It was told many times that the problem is not Vivienne herself but the fact that you totally loose control over your own character around her. My calm busy Inquisitor would not even notice movers yet along make a big fuss about it. Reaction would be "whatever, madam Le Fer". For others it would be ordering movers to put everything back where it was before - but no! No matter who you are playing your Inquisitor will somehow deeply troubled by moving furniture around and cry in helpless anger while Vivienne make a big point about her power to do as she pleased. WHY?!

 

Back to Vivienne, and I agree 100% here. and if people want to complain about those who don't like certain female characters then perhaps the real question should be. How come rpg is thrown out the window when it comes to certain female characters? That scene above totally kills any form of role play a player may have concerning their character and dealing with Viv.

 

You can't be the Inquisitor who laughs it off as petty. Tell her to change that bland couch in your room while she's at it. You can't be the Inquisitor that says "Okay Viv, you want to test your power?" *Orders movers to start moving her furniture out of skyhold*, and you can't tell the movers to put your stuff back if you want to.  Your Inquisitor is just standing there derping for no good reason.


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#294
Saricc

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Because she is an out of touch elitist that never actually experienced the horrors of the circles yet wants the circles back. 

 

Don't get me wrong, she's not a badly written character, but she is absolutely a horrible person. 


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#295
DracoAngel

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And does this make her a bad character? Or just a character that you wouldn't get along with? 

In truth none of the companions are a 'bad character'. Some just have bad personalities. Personality wise she is someone I would definitely not get along with, which is why I never use her (or Sera). If I can't get along with them or stand their personality, their butt's can stay away from me lol

 

Opinions on companions are going to vary. Some people will adore the hell out of her (and thats great for you!), doesn't mean everyone has to like the snob.



#296
biccs_pudding

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I'm in the pro-Viv camp. I don't really see why she gets this much hate, while Solas doesn't (who has kind of the same attitude, just in a different direction). I expected it to be the other way around. The way Solas insulted my Qunari was the biggest Renegade moment I had in a DA game. Viv can be a condescending ass (though I don't actually think she's done it that much, most of the time it was just being honest), but she wasn't racist. Her banter with Bull showed that she actually respected him a fair deal (a thing that some people here apparently find her incapable of), her attempts at making him more fashionable wasn't really insulting, Bull was willing to heed her advice. To comment on Blackwall's lack of hygiene was perfectly justified as well. No one likes having a smelly peasant around in close proximity. She does bring elitism a bit higher than she should, but that's her main character flaw. You know, stuff that makes characters actually interesting.

 

The way the conversations with her were constructed (Viv always getting the last word and being generally unimpressionable and stubborn) is part of her character. There are people who just make themselves very difficult to argue with, and are just better be left alone. I don't see the assumed poor writing here. So what if you can't kick her out? She'll be perfectly fine alone on her fabulous balcony.

Her rearranging of the furniture with no option to oppose her was a bit iffy, I can agree on that, it's no biggie though. She does have good taste.

 

Even if I wasn't pro-templar in general and wouldn't find most of her points sensible (she does acknowledge that the Fereldan and Kirkwall circles were terribly restricting, it stands to reason that she would see them changed), I'd still find her a great character who maybe needed a bit more fleshing-out. The less impressionable yesmen I'm surrounded with, the better.

Templar brutality this, Mage irresponsibility that, my lil' sweetheart Minaeve's life story and a glimpse of Tevinter history (as well as the effin Blights) makes Viv's way the most reasonable for me. Not perfect, the Circle system would definitely need a few reforms, but it's the most sustainable on the long run. Making Cassandra the Divine who'd be willing to cooperate with the mages and the templars to create a more balanced system is my best case scenario.

Not putting Viv on the Sunburst Throne though, that would be too soon. One step at a time.

 

I think she's in a similar position as Morrigan was (I was also surprised back then by how many people disliked her), but didn't get as much attention in the story or in her dialogues. Both Morri and Viv have deep insecurities under the cold fish facade, but with Morri we got a chance to address these and actually help her or at least understand her better, with Viv we didn't. I wanted to know more about her backstory, feelings, fond memories and most of all, addressing her fears and issues. It could have helped building up more sympathy towards her the same way it did to Morrigan.

Actually, I think this is why we didn't have any characters in DAI who could measure up to the Alistair-Leliana-Morrigan trio, or the Cassandra-Varric duo to the point when they would be worth bringing back in future installments. As much as I liked some of the current companions, none of them feel strong enough to be revisited again, especially in a different setting, while on the other hand the aforementioned ones could easily justify yet another comeback.

This is all just an opinion of course.


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#297
dekarserverbot

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Reading this gave me a headache. I didn't know Vivienne was on BSN

 

Well Shawn Michaels, when I read that i was hearing Vivienne's voice.

 

Same as Sera I don't hate her totally, just highly dislike some aspects of her, and that is that she is so... teacherly? I always hated pro circle mages as much as i trend to dislike ego boosted intelectuals, but not other stuff make me hate her



#298
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no idea I thought she was kind of bitchy but still ok

I hate Sera definitely a lot worse than Vivienne



#299
Madrict

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I love Vivienne actually, she provides a nice counter to all the companions that are too friendly and go along with your view. Need more strong characters like her. Plus she made me laugh and she is hot :)



#300
ZipZap2000

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Hardened Leliana is scary D: 

 

The Governor in TWD scary, you have no idea what that crazy woman will do next but somebody is going to die.