483 réponses à ce sujet

[ZipZap2000]

Back to Vivienne, and I agree 100% here. and if people want to complain about those who don't like certain female characters then perhaps the real question should be. How come rpg is thrown out the window when it comes to certain female characters? That scene above totally kills any form of role play a player may have concerning their character and dealing with Viv.

 

You can't be the Inquisitor who laughs it off as petty. Tell her to change that bland couch in your room while she's at it. You can't be the Inquisitor that says "Okay Viv, you want to test your power?" *Orders movers to start moving her furniture out of skyhold*, and you can't tell the movers to put your stuff back if you want to.  Your Inquisitor is just standing there derping for no good reason.

 

So basically Vivienne is the catalyst from ME3 all over again. I'm starting to understand the hate now though i only dislike her immensely myself.

[SamanthaJ]

During the attack on Haven I wasn't able to save everyone and told Vivienne I failed them when we got to Skyhold. Her approval went up and she said "You didn't fail them, my dear." Even if I don't always agree with her views I can't hate Vivienne after that. Damn fuzzy feelings.

 

Oh, have some pie.

 

Spoiler

[Kulyok]

Viviennne is the Diana Allers of Dragon Age, I would say.

[Rifneno]

And does this make her a bad character? Or just a character that you wouldn't get along with?

That's not what makes her a bad character. What makes her a bad character is that the dialogue is all written so she "wins" everything. You can either agree with her, or act like a complete idiot. You can't offer intelligent counterpoints to her nonsense. That is why she's a badly written character.

I love Vivienne actually, she provides a nice counter to all the companions that are too friendly and go along with your view. Need more strong characters like her. Plus she made me laugh and she is hot

I don't know why people rant about people not liking characters they can't mold to their PoV. Who can you mold to your PoV? Can you convince Dorian that Tevinter is trash? No. Can you convince Cullen to be all pro-mage freedom? No. Can you convince Varric that red lyrium is good for you and tastes like strawberry candy? No. Can you convince Bull that the Qun is the worst thing in Thedas? No. I could go on, but I think everybody gets the point. All the characters have their own point of view and aren't going to change their mind about issues important to them. There is no one that is puddy in your hands.

The main difference between most of these characters and Vivienne is that the other characters are willing to respectfully disagree like adults. If you're all pro-mage freedom, Cullen disagrees but he'll respect you, your views, and your decisions. Vivienne will not.

Expecting our companions to not be douchebags about petty differences while the end of the world is around the corner is entirely different than expecting to be able to mold them as you please. FFS, people, stop posting such a blatant straw man.

[Hazegurl]

So basically Vivienne is the catalyst from ME3 all over again. I'm starting to understand the hate now though i only dislike her immensely myself.

lol!! She's not THAT bad but like the catalyst you just kinda gotta stand there listening to her talk and you just gotta swallow whatever is thrown at ya...darn it....that is very much like the catalyst.

[Lucrece]

I don't dislike her because I can't change her opinion. I dislike her because I find her opinions obnoxious and privileged, and find her as a person to be little more than a social climber.

 

And I hate social climbers.

[mikeymoonshine]

What makes her a bad character is that the dialogue is all written so she "wins" everything. You can either agree with her, or act like a complete idiot. You can't offer intelligent counterpoints to her nonsense. That is why she's a badly written character.

 

I feel like you lot are going a bit over the top with this complaint now, it's not a new thing in Bioware games. I am not sure if I would really say she "wins" either you just can't say anything that she does not have a response to. What would you have wanted to say and how would you have wanted her to react? 

 

 

 

The main difference between most of these characters and Vivienne is that the other characters are willing to respectfully disagree like adults. If you're all pro-mage freedom, Cullen disagrees but he'll respect you, your views, and your decisions. Vivienne will not.

Expecting our companions to not be douchebags about petty differences while the end of the world is around the corner is entirely different than expecting to be able to mold them as you please. FFS, people, stop posting such a blatant straw man.

 

Most people do not respect the opinions of others even if they pretend to, you are a perfect example of someone who has been petty to others merely for disagreeing with you. I'm not judging you for it or even bothered by it but it's just what some people are like but you of all people should be able to understand that. A persons worth is not entirely defined by how respectful they are to other peoples opinions. 

 

Mage freedom really isn't a minor issue in Thedas, if you can't be respectful and grown up about it in the real world (where it doesn't even matter) how can you expect Vivienne to be it in Thedas? 

[Gaesesagai]

*snip*

 

I don't really see why she gets this much hate, while Solas doesn't (who has kind of the same attitude, just in a different direction).

 

*snip*

 

I think she's in a similar position as Morrigan was (I was also surprised back then by how many people disliked her), but didn't get as much attention in the story or in her dialogues. Both Morri and Viv have deep insecurities under the cold fish facade, but with Morri we got a chance to address these and actually help her or at least understand her better, with Viv we didn't. I wanted to know more about her backstory, feelings, fond memories and most of all, addressing her fears and issues. It could have helped building up more sympathy towards her the same way it did to Morrigan.

 

*snip*

 

Not really no, on the "Solas has same attitude" front. He presents himself as intelligent, argues his point everytime and while he strongly believes one way or another, he is capable of reason. Vivienne is not any of those things. And interacting with Bull... ugh. Solas rightfully calls him out on his bs and IB is of course at a loss to argue, because there are no sane, rational or logical arguments pro qun. While Bull's banter with Vivienne... well it seems to me she fits his dominatrix fantasy, that's why he's groveling like that with her. And she, like any self centered, egotistical, shallow individual, she is all too happy to jump in and act the part.

 

I disagree with that comparisson. Morrigan was disliked mainly because she was "mean" and made some people cry lol. I never shared that sentiment, always liked Morrigan, but to each his own. But Vivienne is not disliked because she is "mean" or "evil". She's disliked for the plethora of reasons many people have shared here, reasons well argued, which "some" people simply ignore when stating their opinions.

I don't include here people who explain they like her because x reason (for example agreeing with her nonsensical stance on mage slavery... at least they are making an effort).

[ZipZap2000]

lol!! She's not THAT bad but like the catalyst you just kinda gotta stand there listening to her talk and you just gotta swallow whatever is thrown at ya...darn it....that is very much like the catalyst.

 

It doesn't exactly bode well for the future mass effect game iff that lesson still hasn't been learnt yet does it?

[Ieldra]

I've just explored Viviennes dialogue about the Circles again. Here's what I think, in addition to what I've already posted:

 

(1) I do not agree that I'm forced to act stupid around her. I simply don't get options to disagree at all, but can only say goodbye. That's regrettable, but acceptable.

 

(2) While there is some value in Vivienne's opinions, she's an extremist. The way she presents her position is all too reminiscent of the justifications of the "War on Terror" with all its excesses. Her viewpoint is as one-sided as that of the opposition.

 

That's ok with me. I still appreciate her as a character while not exactly liking her. 

[Fredward]

I wasn't sure if I'd like Vivienne but I do, quite a bit. She's ambitious, unapologetic, she knows who she is and what she wants and she's comfortable with that. I don't agree with her on all things (actually I disagree with her on a lot of things) and I think she's the kind of person who will always put personal advancement first aaaand I would always keep an eye out for some kind of betrayal but overall I like her.

[ORTesc]

Bald women... don't really get much love. Just sayin, they had to give Jack hair before people started to like her.

[ZipZap2000]

Bald women... don't really get much love. Just sayin, they had to give Jack hair before people started to like her.

 

LIES!!! ALL OF IT LIES!!!!

[WildOrchid]

well it seems to me she fits his dominatrix fantasy

 

... actually, no.

She most likely reminds him of a tamassran. Add the poise, the "horns" and the way she "orders" around and talks. Hence why Bull respects her, it didn't give me any sexual vibe at all.

 

 

Also lol, "dominatrix"..... bull is no way "submissive" in his romance. He prefers to be the dom in the relationship, even with Dorian.

[t0mm06]

I dislike her because shes a hypocrite, she makes all these grand claims about how she knows best for the mages, that they should be in chantry held circles. Because all mages are dangerous, but she herself was not in a circle watched 24/7, when the circles stared to get worse for mages after kirkwall she experienced none of the oppression that the other mages suffered, she was safe in her mansion sipping wine because she can play the 'game'. 
She claims all mages should be locked in the circle and watched because they are dangerous, but she is a walking example of a mage not confined to the circle who is not going around murdering anyone. 
So its basically that she is a hypocrite, which isnt necessarily a bad thing, we are all at times hypocritical, the issue is that shes a hypocrite who refuses to see that she is being hypocritical, and who still has the audacity to assume that she is right %100 of the time without questioning herself.

Also i couldn't help but think whenever i talked to her that all mages could be imprisoned, forced into slavery, beaten, made tranquil, or worse and she would not object to any of this as along as she remained free and in her lavish lifestyle.   

[Taura-Tierno]

The fact that people are so split on whether they love her or intensely dislikes her goes to show that she's a good character. Means Bioware did something good with her.

[biccs_pudding]

Not really no, on the "Solas has same attitude" front. He presents himself as intelligent, argues his point everytime and while he strongly believes one way or another, he is capable of reason.

I think that heavily depends on your alignment. I didn't get along well with Solas at all and found him just as stubborn as Viv in his own way. He doesn't respect differing opinions either. The fact that he has a special position due to his true self doesn't make him any less patronizing. He will disapprove of you just as easily if you don't happen to fit in his perfect worldview. And for an "intelligent" person he screws up an awful lot while being extremely judgemental towards everyone else. And again, racism.
I appreciated his insight in Fade-related subjects, but other than that I kept him as far from myself as possible. If it comes down to self-righteous egoists, I prefer having the fun ones around (meaning Dorian and Viv).

I don't think the Morrigan comparison is off. Despite sharing more than one trait with Viv (condescension, stubbornness, occasional cruelty), our agency in being able to dig to the source of these problems and actually influence her a bit took away the edges. She came a long way, in my playthroughs, even in Origins. I wanted to give Viv the same chance. As of now she has no character arc to speak of, whereas just look at Morrigan now, even in the Kieran-less scenarios.

I won't be touching the "mage-slavery" and Qun subjects, so I'll just disagree on that.

[Addai]

I like Vivienne as an NPC, but she doesn't work very well as a companion to me. She's too wrapped up in her political games. Her personal quest can't be justified in any way as being beneficial to the Inquisition, so it's difficult for me to justify doing it except as an "I was in the neighborhood" thing (which admittedly covers a lot of the companion quests). Her scene about re-arranging the furniture is kind of ridiculous. I just look at her like, "Really? You expect me to give a single crap about your decor or your petty power games?"

 

However, it's possible that I just don't play characters who can get her. I do agree that the PC doesn't have very good responses to her dialogue, such that most conversations end with Vivienne getting the last word and a disapproval hit.

[HTTP 404]

Not everyone is going to like the same type of character. It is what it is.

If you are asking why someone people go through great lengths to write up in detail summaries that are nothing more than character assassinations, I couldn't tell you.

I guess its because they were a bit too invested in the game and thought that Vivi, or Sera, or whoever was "too much" and felt that they couldn't react to them appropriately or in proportion to how much they disliked said character, so they end up ranting about it on BSN.

 

 

Can you just copy and paste this into every "why do people hate x character?" thread.  Pretty much sums up what I think as well.

[ironhorse384]

I dislike her because shes a hypocrite, she makes all these grand claims about how she knows best for the mages, that they should be in chantry held circles. Because all mages are dangerous, but she herself was not in a circle watched 24/7, when the circles stared to get worse for mages after kirkwall she experienced none of the oppression that the other mages suffered, she was safe in her mansion sipping wine because she can play the 'game'. 
She claims all mages should be locked in the circle and watched because they are dangerous, but she is a walking example of a mage not confined to the circle who is not going around murdering anyone. 
So its basically that she is a hypocrite, which isnt necessarily a bad thing, we are all at times hypocritical, the issue is that shes a hypocrite who refuses to see that she is being hypocritical, and who still has the audacity to assume that she is right %100 of the time without questioning herself.

Also i couldn't help but think whenever i talked to her that all mages could be imprisoned, forced into slavery, beaten, made tranquil, or worse and she would not object to any of this as along as she remained free and in her lavish lifestyle.   

^This

Instead of being an advocate for circle reform she comes across as someone who's more concerned with protecting her own privilege and status.She parrots the argument that, essentially mages are big sucky babies who when faced with adversity will, at the drop of a hat, resort to blood magic or demonic possession.

[robertthebard]

During the attack on Haven I wasn't able to save everyone and told Vivienne I failed them when we got to Skyhold. Her approval went up and she said "You didn't fail them, my dear." Even if I don't always agree with her views I can't hate Vivienne after that. Damn fuzzy feelings.
 
Oh, have some pie.
 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Ahhh, Reapers

In regard to the topic:

I don't hate her, particularly. I'm not exactly her biggest fan, but what bothers me about her is that she can become the Divine, with no (at least not yet) real backlash. Before we get to the most common argument used to dismiss this tidbit, Andrastianism was formed after the war with the Tevinter Imperium, a society ruled by mages. I think the intent of the Chant was pretty clear: We don't want to overthrow Tevinter's control to replace it with another Tevinter. The way it's interpreted by Southern Thedas is pretty clear: Mages cannot hold titles or land, because that would allow them to rule. The Inquisitor gets a pass, if they're a mage, due to the fact that they're the only one that can close the rifts and the breach, but it's not like there are no other preferred candidates for Divine, as far as the population is concerned.

That's my issue, in a nutshell. How the BSN chooses to interpret the Chant is irrelevant. We have been 3 different people in Thedas. Those people are the ones that we should be basing any discussion of the Chant on, they actually live with/under it. We can say "But the game lets us do it", and be correct, because it is correct, the game can let us do it. However, I think that that decision should have some serious consequences, or it's going to paint the Chantry in a very hypocritical light. Not that, for some people, that might be a good thing, but I think it would be more than a little off if there are no repercussions.

[Rifneno]

^This
Instead of being an advocate for circle reform she comes across as someone who's more concerned with protecting her own privilege and status.She parrots the argument that, essentially mages are big sucky babies who when faced with adversity will, at the drop of a hat, resort to blood magic or demonic possession.

That would probably explain how she manages to get the seat of Divine.

[Akkos]

That would probably explain how she manages to get the seat of Divine.

That has nothing to do with her getting to be Divine.... Wtf.

 

None of you know her true agenda, you all are just assuming rubbish.

There are mages who want to be save in the circle. For example, abandoned mages from the Dalish clan have no where to go...

[Rifneno]

Quick answer: Many people hate anybody who isn't instantly on board with their black & white "FREEEDOOOMMM!!!" worldview.

Vivienne defender 1: You guys love Dorian, and he's pro-slavery!
Vivienne defender 2: You guys hate anyone who isn't on board with your black and white "freedom" ideals!

Yes, this seems legit.