That has nothing to do with her getting to be Divine.... Wtf.
None of you know her true agenda, you all are just assuming rubbish.
There are mages who want to be save in the circle. For example, abandoned mages from the Dalish clan have no where to go...
There are a few black people who support the KKK too. What's your point, that some people are idiots? I know that, I read BSN.
Where are those black people now?...
Where are those black people now?...
Same place as your pro-Circle mages, probably.
See, so figured you are one of those idiots too?
Guest_Raga_*
Vivienne defender 1: You guys love Dorian, and he's pro-slavery!
Vivienne defender 2: You guys hate anyone who isn't on board with your black and white "freedom" ideals!
Yes, this seems legit.
I never even mentioned Dorian. He has nothing to do with this. My point is that the underlying reason most people hate Vivienne is because she's pro-Circle and she's not a ranting, raving obliviously abusive lunatic like Meredith. She makes a situation grey that people don't want to be grey. And on top of that, she's a "traitor" mage. They want a nice tidy "Mages deserve freedom. The end." solution.
I'm a moderate on the issue and I think many of her ideas are quite worth listening to. I've thought just about everybody but Anders has had something worthwhile to say on the topic, and even he was useful in as much as he advertised the anger among some mages that had to be realistically addressed. I could do without her distasteful ambition.
See, so figured you are one of those idiots too?
Guest_Raga_*
Would be interested in seeing how many people who hate Vivienne chose Bhelen in Origins. He's the exact same kind of guy people are accusing Vivienne of being, one who only cares about any changes insofar as they serve him.
Would be interested in seeing how many people who hate Vivienne chose Bhelen in Origins. He's the exact same kind of guy people are accusing Vivienne of being, one who only cares about any changes insofar as they serve him.
So true hahaha....
Would be interested in seeing how many people who hate Vivienne chose Bhelen in Origins. He's the exact same kind of guy people are accusing Vivienne of being, one who only cares about any changes insofar as they serve him.
That kind of comparison doesn't work though.
Vivienne was born as a mage in a circle and because she got together with a noble she managed to come out of top. She doesn't even use her power to help the mages that need her the most.
Bhelen? When he becomes king he gives the casteless work.
^This
Instead of being an advocate for circle reform she comes across as someone who's more concerned with protecting her own privilege and status.She parrots the argument that, essentially mages are big sucky babies who when faced with adversity will, at the drop of a hat, resort to blood magic or demonic possession.
Vivienne is pro reform and also pro protest. She stated as such. The problem is that the mages chose the wrong time to do it and it made them look like terrorists. And look what happened to them as a result. Vivienne is smart enough to know that all mages are privileged in their own ways and losing the circles would be the same as losing the small foothold they have in Thedas. Vivienne seems to understand that there is another way for mages to achieve freedom without losing the bit of power and privilege they do have. By entering the Chantry.
And let's face it, yes they are sucky babies, and most can't handle the outside world. We were shown this when the conscripted mages whined about their living conditions in Haven and the news that the free mages were attacking citizens because they wanted to lord their new found power over them. And the fact that they ran into the arms of Tevinter and demons and possibly murdering the tranquil, then it seems they do bring more trouble when they face adversity.
**Edit: Yandere, when Viv becomes divine she gives mages power AND more freedom.
Probably, since I let you avoid the point with such a sad attempt at deflection.
Well not at all, seeing as you tried to relate a silly game argument to real-life slavery movements makes you more obnoxious.
So I had to play along.
I never even mentioned Dorian. He has nothing to do with this. My point is that the underlying reason most people hate Vivienne is because she's pro-Circle and she's not a ranting, raving obliviously abusive lunatic like Meredith. She makes a situation grey that people don't want to be grey. And on top of that, she's a "traitor" mage. They want a nice tidy "Mages deserve freedom. The end." solution.
Well not at all, seeing as you tried to relate a silly game argument to real-life slavery movements makes you more obnoxious.
So I had to play along.
**Edit: Yandere, when Viv becomes divine she gives mages power AND more freedom.
Ah, I did not know about that. I have never had her as a divine.
Still, I don't really hate her, it's just that almost all of my characters tend to disagree with her.
I have a question, if you ****** off Vivienne enough, do you get the option to kick her out? Or just "changing furniture because i don't like how it looks and you're pissing me off. The end".
I have a question, if you ****** off Vivienne enough, do you get the option to kick her out? Or just "changing furniture because i don't like how it looks and you're pissing me off. The end".
I dislike her because shes a hypocrite, she makes all these grand claims about how she knows best for the mages, that they should be in chantry held circles. Because all mages are dangerous, but she herself was not in a circle watched 24/7, when the circles stared to get worse for mages after kirkwall she experienced none of the oppression that the other mages suffered, she was safe in her mansion sipping wine because she can play the 'game'.
She claims all mages should be locked in the circle and watched because they are dangerous, but she is a walking example of a mage not confined to the circle who is not going around murdering anyone.
So its basically that she is a hypocrite, which isnt necessarily a bad thing, we are all at times hypocritical, the issue is that shes a hypocrite who refuses to see that she is being hypocritical, and who still has the audacity to assume that she is right %100 of the time without questioning herself.Also i couldn't help but think whenever i talked to her that all mages could be imprisoned, forced into slavery, beaten, made tranquil, or worse and she would not object to any of this as along as she remained free and in her lavish lifestyle.
She doesn't claim that all mages should be confined to the circles, she just believes that there should be circles and points out that not all mages were confined to the circles in the old system. You seem to be projecting this "she wants mages imprisoned and beaten" idea onto her probably because you dislike that she holds such an opinion and you need to justify your dislike of her by making her seem more extreme.
Her personal quest can't be justified in any way as being beneficial to the Inquisition, so it's difficult for me to justify doing it except as an "I was in the neighborhood" thing (which admittedly covers a lot of the companion quests).
If you actually give her the heart it can lead to her gaining a lot more influence in the Orlesian court and the Chantry. This could easily be good for the Inquisition if the Inquisitor shared most of her beliefs and got along well with her. Having friends in high places can't hurt after all.
That kind of comparison doesn't work though.
Vivienne was born as a mage in a circle and because she got together with a noble she managed to come out of top. She doesn't even use her power to help the mages that need her the most.
Bhelen? When he becomes king he gives the casteless work.
if you make her Divine mages gain a lot more power and freedom within the circles. I know you guys don't want to believe that but it's true.
if you make her Divine mages gain a lot more power and freedom within the circles. I know you guys don't want to believe that but it's true.
**Edit: Yandere, when Viv becomes divine she gives mages power AND more freedom.
Someone beat you to it.
She doesn't claim that all mages should be confined to the circles, she just believes that there should be circles and points out that not all mages were confined to the circles in the old system. You seem to be projecting this "she wants mages imprisoned and beaten" idea onto her probably because you dislike that she holds such an opinion and you need to justify your dislike of her by making her seem more extreme.
If you actually give her the heart it can lead to her gaining a lot more influence in the Orlesian court and the Chantry. This could easily be good for the Inquisition if the Inquisitor shared most of her beliefs and got along well with her. Having friends in high places can't hurt after all.
Guest_Raga_*
I know what your point is, but it's pretty laughable so I thought I'd instead just point out how contradictory Vivienne fans are. Because that's amusing.
As for your point, you seem blissfully unaware that the forum has plenty of Circle/templar supporters and that pro-Circle characters are often very popular. Varric clearly prefers siding with the templars in DA2 and he's one of the most popular characters in the series. Cullen has an 8 million page fan thread and the guy assisted in committing a major war crime in DA2. But oh yeah, everyone just hates Vivienne because of her viewpoints and not because she's a condescending ****** who goes out of her way to goad you.
Don't quit your day job.
Okay, the fact that you think *Varric* is a pro-templar extremist means I don't have to spend any more time trying to prove my point. You have just proven it for me nicely. Carry on.
Guest_Raga_*
That kind of comparison doesn't work though.
Vivienne was born as a mage in a circle and because she got together with a noble she managed to come out of top. She doesn't even use her power to help the mages that need her the most.
Bhelen? When he becomes king he gives the casteless work.
Her ending epilogue says: "To the surprise of many, she reinstates the Circle of Magi and creates a Templar Order firmly leashed to her hand. Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before - even if all true power lies with her. For now, the Chantry remains united. Though difficult for many to accept, a mage sits on the Sunburst Throne and will remain there."
I'm getting from this that 1) the templars are now "firmly leashed" to the hands of a mage and 2) mages now have more freedom and responsibility than ever before and 3) she has gained the power of a queen.
Is she ruthless and monarchical? Yes
Does she enact reforms that benefit mages? Yes
This is sounding rather a lot like Bhelen to me. He didn't eradicate the Casteless. He just gave them work.
*Edit* Ninjaed (sort of, I was away from the computer for a while).
I don't hate Vivienne.
But I did put her in those yellow plaid mage robes and laugh. Just a little.
Would be interested in seeing how many people who hate Vivienne chose Bhelen in Origins. He's the exact same kind of guy people are accusing Vivienne of being, one who only cares about any changes insofar as they serve him.
So true hahaha....
Both nice posts.
So let's see. You're comparing Bhelen with Vivienne.
Vivienne:
- does no reform whatsoever (the increased whatever for mages is meaningless since templars are reinstated and the status quo is kept, which led to the problem in the first place)
- she actually moves things backwards with her idiotic determination to keep things the same so that she remains relevant to the game, to nobility, etc (see the result of her taking the divine throne)
- basically extreme traditionalist (except her of course, can't be an idiot forever stuck in the past if you're not hypocritical about it)
Bhelen:
- almost extremely progressive
- probably kills everyone who tries to stand in his way
If Bhelen can be compared to anyone, it's a hardened Leliana in DAI (with the rivers of blood in chantry halls).
Anyway, keep on keeping on. Thinking before writing stuff and trying to actually come up with reasons instead of... whatever that is, is just not cool enough for you it seems. You simply... squeeze out whatever comes to mind. Brilliant.
Cheers
PS: Bhelen is on crazy levels of self-interest, but unlike Vivienne, he's also actually interested in moving the dwarves forward, etc etc...
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