It's all about gender actually and they are very few in this game. The most loved characters in game are male..either because they have fans or female characters are viewed as sluts, bitches, wenches....
Tali?
I think the problem is that many female characters aren't written to be BFF material like DA2 Varric/Garrus or intellectually stimulating like Mordin/Legion.
True but how long does that Last before some insane mage does something world ending
That's like saying give a bunch of people atomic weapons and hope that have good intentions.
Mages aren't atomic weapons. They are limited to small effects. Think more along the lines of medics and soldiers since that's really all they amount to.
The whole Corypheus thing is a complete aberration. And in all the thousands and thousands that Thedas has been around this is the first time something like this has ever happened.
Mages need some form of control, I didn't believe that before Fiona did what she did. I only helped the mages on one playthrough and then I conscripted them because they weren't what I was expecting... Ser Barris -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Fiona.
Edit: I agree with Vivianne (something I never thought would happen when I first watched the trailers.)
What did Fiona do? Get abused by the writers who wanted to make mages look impossibly stupid by doing something no person with two brain cells would do (decide to be slaves of the Tevinter Imperium just because the writers needed to shoehorn Tevinter into the mage storyline somehow)?
You need to follow the original timeline which actually made sense. That timeline had the mages taking shelter in Redcliffe.
I really like Vivienne from a personality stand-point, though I will point out that her criticism of the mage-templar conflict comes from an extremely privileged position that can't be attributed to the average mage experience. So she comes off as an elitist who is too disconnected from the experience of mages to understand why they're rebelling. Not to mention that the conflict interfered with her own personal goals for power, namely becoming first enchanter of the White Spire.
And I don't believe that you can call her out on this which seems like a missed opportunity to me and annoys/pisses off plenty of others because she could be viewed as Bioware's mouthpiece for admonishing players who thought that the war was a great idea and that the mages were in the right to rebel. (FYI...they were)
She only kills the guy if you insist that he die, otherwise she lets him go. And he was ready to fight the Inquisitor to the death, so right then and there he declared himself an enemy combatant, albeit instantly neutralized.
How did you get that he was ready to fight the Inquisitor to the death? All he was doing was making some demeaning statements to the Inquisitor. That was hardly what is required to be an enemy combatant. Especially since he didn't have a weapon or wear any distinguishing marks or do any of the other things one needs to be considered an enemy combatant. Making verbal threats is also not enough to even allow you to attack someone out of self defense. There is an immediacy requirement that simply was not met here.
Viv uses her magic to freeze the guy in place and possibly kill him simply because he insults the Inquisitor. Of course I've seen fictional characters do the same using nonmagical means, so the point isn't so much that she used magic but that her first resort was to violence which wasn't justified by the circumstances.
Viv is really just a bloody hypocrite whose only in it to further her own political ambitions and damned be the consequences for anyone else, even if those consequences will be felt by thousands of people hundreds of years from now.
I stopped talking to her after awhile so I'm not sure if she said that but if I recall right she's about the only one that approves when you use tranquility as a judgement. Although Erimond was of course not guilty of a minor crime.
I wish I could use Tranquility as a standard sentence for both mages and nonmages. Some of the people you encounter are simply too dangerous to allow to live as they are due to their political connections, or ability to have themselves freed from jail, or inability to be reformed, or what have you. And I don't want to simply kill them now that I have they have captured and secured in my fortress.
I remember that guy reaching for a weapon and I always approve of her killing him. The dude obviously wanted a fight.
Fiona was always stupid. I got that from reading Asunder. Who in their right minds think it's a good idea to declare war after a mage blows up a Chantry killing hundreds of people and a Revered Mother? Casts aside any powerful allies, such as the Divine herself. "**** the Divine." and then decide it's gonna go well to just fight Templars and leave. 
Mind you, doing all this while being out voted by the so called oppressed mages.
She obviously doesn't have a good track record for bright decision making skills.
Also, My mage Inquisitor visited his family often.
How did you get that he was ready to fight the Inquisitor to the death? All he was doing was making some demeaning statements to the Inquisitor. That was hardly what is required to be an enemy combatant. Especially since he didn't have a weapon or wear any distinguishing marks or do any of the other things one needs to be considered an enemy combatant. Making verbal threats is also not enough to even allow you to attack someone out of self defense. There is an immediacy requirement that simply was not met here.
Viv uses her magic to freeze the guy in place and possibly kill him simply because he insults the Inquisitor. Of course I've seen fictional characters do the same using nonmagical means, so the point isn't so much that she used magic but that her first resort was to violence which wasn't justified by the circumstances.
Viv is really just a bloody hypocrite whose only in it to further her own political ambitions and damned be the consequences for anyone else, even if those consequences will be felt by thousands of people hundreds of years from now.
I do remember the person saying to the Inquisitor Let's take this outside. The threat was made. That constitutes assault. Whether the person has a weapon or not is not a factor. People have been beaten to death with bare hands.
Vivienne's response was in line with her character. As a host she has the duty to protect her guests. She invited the Inquisitor. She froze the combatant in place. She could have easily killed him if she want to kill him. She wanted to see what kind of person the Inquisitor was, so she asked what to do with him. That places the burden of judgment on the Inquisitor. She was also sending a message to anyone who would insult a guest in her place.
Also remember this is Orlais and those in power have privileges others do not, like the chevaliers.
The same situation comes up in Mark of the Assassin dlc for DA2. The Baron insults Hawke and then sends his men to kill the party because he wants to claim the kill. After the party defeats the Baron the Duke asks Hawke what should he do with the Baron.
Mages aren't atomic weapons. They are limited to small effects. Think more along the lines of medics and soldiers since that's really all they amount to.
The whole Corypheus thing is a complete aberration. And in all the thousands and thousands that Thedas has been around this is the first time something like this has ever happened.
Vivienne's biggest problem by far was her banter dialogue. If you only interacted with her in Haven/Skyhold, she came across as powerful, well-rounded and interesting. Yes, she's got her own agenda, but who doesn't? Yes, she's ultra-conservative, but it's still a valid point of view. Yes, she's judgemental - even a little bigoted, but these are the foibles that round out a character.
Then I took her out on the road and she instantly became an absolute caricature of a snobbish b**ch. I really got the impression her writer did not like her character at all. Because very few posh, privileged people really are stuck-up snobs - that's a silly and shallow image envious people like to project onto them. She's either playing up to this Dislikable Ice-Queen persona for some convoluted reason, or it's just bad writing I'm afraid.
It's probably just best to leave her in your base and imagine her working alongside Josephine, pulling the diplomatic strings.
That said, her banter did provide the two lines of party dialogue in the game that actually made me laugh out loud: the line about the fainting couch with Sera, and the "Thank you, darling." she gives after convincing (The!) Iron Bull to clean his sword. Indira Varma is a gift for writers and fans alike.
She also provides the opportunity to hear the Sky Watcher to tell her "Preposterous is what you wore to a bog, Orlesian."
Or, I could just dislike the fact that she's put in a position to violate the very tenets of the faith she's now in charge of? Once she's in charge, she also re-establishes the Templars, and puts them back in their traditional role, thereby creating the exact same system that led to the revolt in the first place. It seemed like a good idea when they did it the first time too, didn't it? It's going to work out fine, for a while, I'm sure. It did the first time, but how long until history repeats itself, if it's given a chance to due to the first thing I stated here: the direct contradiction of the teachings of Andrastianism in southern Thedas.
This has little to do with what I said. The person I was responding to claimed that Viv thinks mages should be confined to circles and that her not living in one made her a hypocrite. I pointed out that this was not strictly true and a misrepresentation of her argument. It doesn't matter why he misrepresented her, the fact is that he did. As for the Templars "Firmly leashed" to the Divine's hand is not their traditional role and we have no idea what the role of this new Templar order will be. So we don't know how similar the system will be other than that mages have more power and freedom in this system (which would make it not the same as the old system). I have no idea how it will work out and neither do you.
Hey, check it out, I got the same Chantry support from Leliana and Cassandra as Divine. Shocker, isn't it? If "mage freedom" is really going to be the battle cry for the new Divine, then Leliana should be the preferred choice, since she abolishes the Circles, leaving the mages free to govern themselves. In my save, they went on to form a college, which will probably wind up being a lot like the Circles of old, only voluntary, instead of forced.
Um I was just giving an example of how doing her personal quest could benefit the Inquisition. I didn't say it was needed and as you say there are other ways to make connections, that doesn't mean she is a useless connection though.
Firstly I didn't say she wanted them beaten at all, what I said was that the impression I get from her is that she would not care if they were as long as it didn't interfear with he life/privileges.
Also I don't think she is extrem at all.i just think she's selfish.
None of these are things I've projected onto her, they are just how she appears to me.
Also I actually agree with some of her views, there should be circle (not chantry driven) and not run at all like they were, and she is right about most of the faults of the rebel mages.
Perhaps one of the main reasons I dislike her is that she is pompous and thinks herself better for being so good at 'the game'.
Or maybe it's just that I don't trust or like anyone who tells people off for calling them by their name rather then a sentence long title (I've been around 3 companions who Vivienne has chastised for calling her viv rather then 'madam de Frey court Mage blah blah blah'
Well it's kind of the same thing, your impressions are your own they aren't necessarily true. I am not saying they definitely aren't but her motivations are not made clear. She wants power of course and she wants her old life back but she also harbors a lot of anger because of things that happened during the rebellion. Her banter with Cole reveals that she is dwelling on memories of finding dead mages in a circle tower, she believes the rebels killed them for not joining the rebellion. Seeing as Cole only hears pain I believe she truly believes this and that it had a large impact on her. She also greatly fears demons and she believes the circle system is the best way to keep mages safe from them.
Basically she is complicated, I do not know her true motivations but I don't think she is entirely self serving even if that is a big part of it.
How exactly do mages have more freedom now than they did before? The Circle system was what robbed mages of their freedom in the first place. Taking mages out of their homes and forcing them into places that they cannot leave any time they wish, where they cannot have a family, cannot necessarily choose whom they love (or even if they get to love), where they are forced to worship some being called the Creator, isn't giving mages their freedom. It is taking away the Freedom they finally achieved after rebelling.
More Freedom=/=Freedom. Your creating a false all or nothing dichotomy seemingly so you can ignore the reforms she did make entirely. Nobody said she frees mages they said she gives them more freedom within the circles because that is what the epilogue tells us. Oh and the mages didn't achieve anything by rebelling, the Inquisitor is the one who gives them their freedom.
Then I took her out on the road and she instantly became an absolute caricature of a snobbish b**ch. I really got the impression her writer did not like her character at all. Because very few posh, privileged people really are stuck-up snobs - that's a silly and shallow image envious people like to project onto them. She's either playing up to this Dislikable Ice-Queen persona for some convoluted reason, or it's just bad writing I'm afraid.
She got along well with Cassandra and Varric in my banter. If this is about Sera then I'll say that since Sera is always the instigator, Vivienne is playing the role that she knows will infuriate Sera the most.
"Knicked yer bloomers, Viiiiv."
"I bought several more pairs of a higher quality."
"Well that's...you...you're not doing this right!"
This has little to do with what I said. The person I was responding to claimed that Viv thinks mages should be confined to circles and that her not living in one made her a hypocrite. I pointed out that this was not strictly true and a misrepresentation of her argument. It doesn't matter why he misrepresented her, the fact is that he did. As for the Templars "Firmly leashed" to the Divine's hand is not their traditional role and we have no idea what the role of this new Templar order will be. So we don't know how similar the system will be other than that mages have more power and freedom in this system (which would make it not the same as the old system). I have no idea how it will work out and neither do you.
Um I was just giving an example of how doing her personal quest could benefit the Inquisition. I didn't say it was needed and as you say there are other ways to make connections, that doesn't mean she is a useless connection though.
She got along well with Cassandra and Varric in my banter. If this is about Sera then I'll say that since Sera is always the instigator, Vivienne is playing the role that she knows will infuriate Sera the most.
"Knicked yer bloomers, Viiiiv."
"I bought several more pairs of a higher quality."
"Well that's...you...you're not doing this right!"
Maybe you're right (I think most of her disagreeable banter was either with Sera, Iron Bull or Solas). I'll take a sarcasm-o'meter out with me on my second playthrough and see how Viv's dialogue sounds if I imagine it's all tongue-in-cheek.
Mages aren't atomic weapons. They are limited to small effects. Think more along the lines of medics and soldiers since that's really all they amount to.
The whole Corypheus thing is a complete aberration. And in all the thousands and thousands that Thedas has been around this is the first time something like this has ever happened.
An abomination can take out a whole village. It's like an atomic weapon. At least that's the lore.
Maybe the lore is contradicted by the games, you could argue - mages certainly aren't powerful enough in-game (the most powerful, since those are supposed to be akin to atomic weapons, not people like Minaeve or whatever - not all mages have the same talent). We see mages fighting Templars most of the time - to a Templar or Seeker, a mage or abomination is much less than to an army.
Maybe you're right (I think most of her disagreeable banter was either with Sera, Iron Bull or Solas). I'll take a sarcasm-o'meter out with me on my second playthrough and see how Viv's dialogue sounds if I imagine it's all tongue-in-cheek.
Well I'm not going to completely absolve her, come to think of it. She's a real ****** to Blackwall for no apparent reason other than his...unrefinedness. Though there may be some reason for that that I missed.
Well I'm not going to completely absolve her, come to think of it. She's a real ****** to Blackwall for no apparent reason other than his...unrefinedness. Though there may be some reason for that that I missed.
This really depends on the playthrough. On my first playthrough, he totally starts it. He taunted her twice in the Fallow Mire before she said **** (about how she must miss her fancy stuff and about her fighting, though the latter if it'd come first might've been a simple mis-step - the order of his banters matters because I've heard it without the other and not thought he meant insult). On another playthrough, he never said anything mean to her first, and she seemed like a callous ****** who was just ragging on him for no reason.
As to Vivienne's banter with Sera, the first banter I heard between them in the only game where I heard it (the one where I actually brought Sera places because I was romancing her) was Sera saying she had something to show Vivienne. "It's your butt, dear." I'd call that one a draw as well. Viv actually exercises a lot of patience in not freezing her like she did the guy at the Palace.
I didn't find most of her banter with Iron Bull disagreeable. As long as he doesn't call her Viv, she's perfectly nice. (And calling someone a shortened version of their name that they didn't introduce themselves with IS rude, I think.) They have many good discussions.
She's very rude to Cole, though, and that one is all on her. Though with things like Choice Spirits in the world, skepticism is warranted. She could go the Cassandra route though and at least be nice about it.
This really depends on the playthrough. On my first playthrough, he totally starts it. He taunted her twice in the Fallow Mire before she said **** (about how she must miss her fancy stuff and about her fighting, though the latter if it'd come first might've been a simple mis-step - the order of his banters matters because I've heard it without the other and not thought he meant insult). On another playthrough, he never said anything mean to her first, and she seemed like a callous ****** who was just ragging on him for no reason.
Fair enough. Since Blackwall seemed puzzled why she was being mean to him, I figured it was just the way their banter was, not that he had started it.
While true, it doesn't make it strictly false either. It's not like she's living in the Circles, calling for things to remain as they were. Check out the dialog, roughly paraphrased, from her recruitment mission: "...use that language in my house to my guests". She's not living in the Circle, she's living in the mansion, and she's already lording it over the nobles, using her magic to suit her needs/desires.
Yes but as she points out living as she does is not against the rules of the circle. She also never said anything about what mages should and shouldn't be using their magic for she just points out that magic is dangerous. She believes this means that magic should not go unchecked and that there should be a system in place to protect mages and mundanes from the dangers of magic. She also believes mages should be properly trained. There are hypocrisies and flaws in some of her arguments but not here. Her views on magic and the circle are perfectly consistent with her lifestyle and with what she does if she becomes Divine.
In my first completion, I could have skipped her recruitment entirely. I never talked to her after her recruitment, more as an oversight than dislike of her. So her connections were, in fact, useless, or, at least, unused. I would, however, imagine that this applies equally across the board, one of those instances of choices mattering, or not, as one would choose to interpret them. Due to the optional nature of the majority of the companions, their optional content isn't required.
Useless to you because you did not make use of it. I am just saying that her recruitment mission can lead to her gaining more power in the Chantry and the Orlesian court and this could be a benefit to the Inquisition. r Celene and Gaspard are not required either, you can choose either of them but I doubt you would say an alliance with them has no benefit. The fact that it doesn't make much of a difference in the game is not the point.
Yes but as she points out living as she does is not against the rules of the circle. She also never said anything about what mages should and shouldn't be using their magic for she just points out that magic is dangerous. She believes this means that magic should not go unchecked and that there should be a system in place to protect mages and mundanes from the dangers of magic. She also believes mages should be properly trained. There are hypocrisies and flaws in some of her arguments but not here. Her views on magic and the circle are perfectly consistent with her lifestyle and with what she does if she becomes Divine.
Useless to you because you did not make use of it. I am just saying that her recruitment mission can lead to her gaining more power in the Chantry and the Orlesian court and this could be a benefit to the Inquisition. r Celene and Gaspard are not required either, you can choose either of them but I doubt you would say an alliance with them has no benefit. The fact that it doesn't make much of a difference in the game is not the point.
I do remember the person saying to the Inquisitor Let's take this outside. The threat was made. That constitutes assault. Whether the person has a weapon or not is not a factor. People have been beaten to death with bare hands.
Vivienne's response was in line with her character. As a host she has the duty to protect her guests. She invited the Inquisitor. She froze the combatant in place. She could have easily killed him if she want to kill him. She wanted to see what kind of person the Inquisitor was, so she asked what to do with him. That places the burden of judgment on the Inquisitor. She was also sending a message to anyone who would insult a guest in her place.
Also remember this is Orlais and those in power have privileges others do not, like the chevaliers.
The same situation comes up in Mark of the Assassin dlc for DA2. The Baron insults Hawke and then sends his men to kill the party because he wants to claim the kill. After the party defeats the Baron the Duke asks Hawke what should he do with the Baron.
A threat does not constitute assault. Assault requires actual physical contact. A credible threat requires imminence. You have to be imminently in danger of being killed or severely injured. Someone making snide remarks about you or your cause doesn't qualify as either assault or an imminent threat.
A bruised ego does not equal imminence.
Vivienne was overreacting to make everyone think that she had more political power than he did by being able to easily put him in danger of imminent death or severe injury without him being able to retaliate against her because of the disparity in their social ranks at that moment. That was all part of the Game.
But let's not lie and say she did it because the Inquisitor was in any danger because the Inquisitor clearly wasn't in any danger.
A threat does not constitute assault. Assault requires actual physical contact. A credible threat requires imminence. You have to be imminently in danger of being killed or severely injured. Someone making snide remarks about you or your cause doesn't qualify as either assault or an imminent threat.
A bruised ego does not equal imminence.
Vivienne was overreacting to make everyone think that she had more political power than he did by being able to easily put him in danger of imminent death or severe injury without him being able to retaliate against her because of the disparity in their social ranks at that moment. That was all part of the Game.
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