483 réponses à ce sujet

[Baerdface]

Rebel mages are scum

[mikeymoonshine]

Nope, it's not the point. The point, however, is that in Southern Thedas, mages aren't supposed to be wielding that kind of power. That's not according to me, that's according to the lore. BSN may have chosen to muddy the Chant, but since it was penned after the war with Tevinter, it's pretty clear what "Magic exists to serve man, not rule over him." means. The people of southern Thedas will remain, or should remain unmoved by BSN's opinion of what that means. She is already in direct contradiction of the religion she can wind up controlling. Which is an even deeper "insult", for lack of a better word, to every Noble family that ever lost members to the Circle, due to that rule of Andrastianism. How long until she goes all Orsino on Thedas due to resistance to her rule, if there is any, since that would require a lot of extra writing to accommodate? Don't you suppose that the Magisterium, at some point in the distant past, started out basically the same way? Only way back then, there was no rule against it.

 

It's not the point when you change the subject.   I was responding to misrepresentations of Viv's arguments and an accusation of hypocrisy on her part based on these misrepresentations. I wasn't talking about whether or not she should be Dvine.  

Anyway I think you know how religion works mate. It gets reinterpreted all the time, some rules are ignored or changed to suit new situations. No christian follows everything in the bible or even everything Jesus supposedly taught. The chant doesn't need BSN to muddy it. Tervinter was an all mage dictatorship controlled by a bunch of powerful mages who only cared about gaining more power. A mage on the sunburst throne is really not the same thing. 

 

The rest of your comment is a slippery slope fallacy. 

[Lewie]

Hate really is a strong word. A few lines of dialogue that showed something behind the mask would be enough, something real I would be behind her 110%. Making faces probably.

[Rawgrim]

I don't dislike her at all, really. I don't agree with her often, but I still think she is a great character. Probably one of the best ones in the game.

[catuta]

I also don't dislike Vivienne. To be fair, I think i'm "frightened" of doing something that she will not approve of (which is frequently enough). I might not agree with her often enough, but I think she is quite a lady.

[Lewie]

Are you perhaps, mistaking BSN for Game Faqs or some other forum? I have rarely ever seen such views expressed here and when it does happen fellow forum members are usually quick to explain views like that aren't welcomed here. Furthermore, as a male gamer I would appreciate it if you didn't make generalisations. You seem to believe that a good portion of men are incapable of identifying with characters simply because of their gender( is this correct or am I mistaken?). I admit there are many who behave in the manner you detailed but, there are just as many who are disgusted by such behaviour( myself among them ). Among my favorite characters are Blackwall, Cassandra, Tali and without a doubt Solas whom I'm currently attempting too romance with Ayala my Dalish Elf. The internet can be a dirty scuzzy place but, that doesn't make it a reflection of society as a whole.

Don't take anything personally in gaming.

[Felene]

But I love Vivienne. She is awesome.

[robertthebard]

It's not the point when you change the subject.   I was responding to misrepresentations of Viv's arguments and an accusation of hypocrisy on her part based on these misrepresentations. I wasn't talking about whether or not she should be Dvine.  
Anyway I think you know how religion works mate. It gets reinterpreted all the time, some rules are ignored or changed to suit new situations. No christian follows everything in the bible or even everything Jesus supposedly taught. The chant doesn't need BSN to muddy it. Tervinter was an all mage dictatorship controlled by a bunch of powerful mages who only cared about gaining more power. A mage on the sunburst throne is really not the same thing. 
 
The rest of your comment is a slippery slope fallacy.

Wait, what? So Viv didn't accept appointment to the throne because she was looking for more power? Do you have any conversations that support that, or is it just "I'm a Viv fan, and she can't have these kinds of aspirations"? Since her response to "...and you'll get to help make these decisions", something that comes up in the middle option of dialog with her in Haven, is "Of course, dear", how is that not aspiring to more power? A mage on the Sunburst Throne may not be, although I really struggle with the concept there, but Viv most certainly is, and wastes no time exercising that power, and makes it clear throughout the game that that's what she's after, or, at the least, maintaining her status within that system, which really, hasn't applied to her since we met her. She's not in the Circle when we meet, but living in a mansion that she calls her house. The fallacy isn't believing that she could resort to whatever means necessary, but that she never would. Sitting on the throne demonstrates that she indeed would go to any lengths necessary, since she's willing to "rewrite" Andrastianism to do so.

[KotorEffect3]

She cracks me up and she is written in a way where she is fun to hate.  Her attitude is insufferable and the banter between her and Sera as well as Blackwall is priceless.  Yeah I don't like her but  she is fun to hate and fun to have in the party.

[MrGDL87]

Wait, what? So Viv didn't accept appointment to the throne because she was looking for more power? Do you have any conversations that support that, or is it just "I'm a Viv fan, and she can't have these kinds of aspirations"? Since her response to "...and you'll get to help make these decisions", something that comes up in the middle option of dialog with her in Haven, is "Of course, dear", how is that not aspiring to more power? A mage on the Sunburst Throne may not be, although I really struggle with the concept there, but Viv most certainly is, and wastes no time exercising that power, and makes it clear throughout the game that that's what she's after, or, at the least, maintaining her status within that system, which really, hasn't applied to her since we met her. She's not in the Circle when we meet, but living in a mansion that she calls her house. The fallacy isn't believing that she could resort to whatever means necessary, but that she never would. Sitting on the throne demonstrates that she indeed would go to any lengths necessary, since she's willing to "rewrite" Andrastianism to do so.

 

I love Vivienne so this is my biased viewpoint.

 

When I first spoke to Vivienne about the New Divine position, I brought the conversation up and suggested that she would be a good candidate. Vivienne's tone in response (In my opinion) wasn't that of a power hungry mastermind. Vivienne sees the necessity of being a candidate because there are no suitable alternatives. Vivienne probably realises that she is best suited to be Divine to restore the status quo.

 

A mage as Divine is a monumental change but it may not result in the Andrastian faith being rewritten altogether. The Chantry has being weakened substantially such as high ranking Chantry officials dying at the Conclave, Templars rebelling and the Mages rebelling. This means people will lose faith. A strong willed character like Vivienne as Divine needs to restore confidence in all of these areas (Chantry, Templar and mages) with the people of Thedas. A mage Divine is a by-product of recent extreme events (e.g. Kirkwall, the breach) which may bring the Andrastian faith closer. Vivienne could be a source of inspiration for Mages, Templars and Andrastians alike and develop more trusting relations between them.

 

Vivienne used the expression that "magic must serve man ..." at Haven and believes in this principle. It all comes down to the interpretation. Vivienne as Divine could say that she is serving the faithful by providing religious guidance and the "ruling over man" would be through the leaders of nations such as Celene. Vivienne's reaction to the rebellions could be seen as an act of self-defence as she needed to act to show she is a strong Divine. Vivienne could spin this as protecting the people of Thedas from violence and therefore not using her magical prowess to subjugate her fellow man. 

 

From the epilogue screen, we know that Vivienne gives more power to the mages. Vivienne says the Circles are necessary to train mages and I agree to an extent (there are bad points which should be reformed). The Circle is not a perfect system but it does give confidence to mages and the people. If there are no Circles whatsoever then people would fear magic more and lead to further violence such as witch hunts. There is no reference in the epilogue to suggest that Vivienne uses her role as Divine for her own power hungry needs. Therefore anything else is just speculation at this point.

 

It is possible that this could change in the future but I don't think I have started a 'southern Imperium'. 

If I did start another Imperium, I would scream NO! WHAT HAVE I DONE!! but then I would have a fabulous future antagonist
 

[mikeymoonshine]

Wait, what? So Viv didn't accept appointment to the throne because she was looking for more power? Do you have any conversations that support that, or is it just "I'm a Viv fan, and she can't have these kinds of aspirations"? Since her response to "...and you'll get to help make these decisions", something that comes up in the middle option of dialog with her in Haven, is "Of course, dear", how is that not aspiring to more power? A mage on the Sunburst Throne may not be, although I really struggle with the concept there, but Viv most certainly is, and wastes no time exercising that power, and makes it clear throughout the game that that's what she's after, or, at the least, maintaining her status within that system, which really, hasn't applied to her since we met her. She's not in the Circle when we meet, but living in a mansion that she calls her house. The fallacy isn't believing that she could resort to whatever means necessary, but that she never would. Sitting on the throne demonstrates that she indeed would go to any lengths necessary, since she's willing to "rewrite" Andrastianism to do so.

 

I remember when we first meet her she says the loyal mages haven't forgotten that "magic should serve man" she left out the other part.  Now I don't think she agrees with a Tervinter style system but I think she views being Divine as serving. Magic still doesn't rule Thedas or even the chantry, a mage leads the chantry yes but that is not necessarily the same thing. She has reinterpreted the chant and changed some rules kinda like how Tervinter did but not at all to the extent they did. 

[Morroian]

I love Vivienne so this is my biased viewpoint.

 

So you overlook the bigotry she displays when you actually take her out on quests.

[MrGDL87]

So you overlook the bigotry she displays when you actually take her out on quests.

 

I know some people think she is a b*tch  but I wouldn't say she is bigoted. If you could provide an example that would help.
 

[robertthebard]

I remember when we first meet her she says the loyal mages haven't forgotten that "magic should serve man" she left out the other part.  Now I don't think she agrees with a Tervinter style system but I think she views being Divine as serving. Magic still doesn't rule Thedas or even the chantry, a mage leads the chantry yes but that is not necessarily the same thing. She has reinterpreted the chant and changed some rules kinda like how Tervinter did but not at all to the extent they did.

This is kind of ironic, in that if you talk to Dorian about Tevinter, he says the same thing! After all, all Tevinter did was maintain the status quo after Andrastianism was adopted.

[mikeymoonshine]

This is kind of ironic, in that if you talk to Dorian about Tevinter, he says the same thing! After all, all Tevinter did was maintain the status quo after Andrastianism was adopted.

 

The difference is in Tervinter it is all BS even Dorian admits that, all Tervinter is ruled by mages but it's conveniently not seen that way. Vivienne doesn't rule anything other than the Chantry if made Divine and the Chantry is meant to serve and guide the people, not rule over them. She didn't rule Orlais when in the court either, she was an adviser. Andraste never said "mages should have no political power and hold no titles" that was just how a lot of people viewed her message. Vivienne obviously doesn't feel that way but that doesn't mean she does not believe that magic should serve man. 

[robertthebard]

The difference is in Tervinter it is all BS even Dorian admits that, all Tervinter is ruled by mages but it's conveniently not seen that way. Vivienne doesn't rule anything other than the Chantry if made Divine and the Chantry is meant to serve and guide the people, not rule over them. She didn't rule Orlais when in the court either, she was an adviser. Andraste never said "mages should have no political power and hold no titles" that was just how a lot of people viewed her message. Vivienne obviously doesn't feel that way but that doesn't mean she does not believe that magic should serve man.

That should say "in theory". In practice, the Chantry has a lot of political power, when it's teeth aren't pulled. If, for example, we were just fighting demons, instead of demons mages and Templars, the Chantry could have chosen, at any time, to march against the Inquisition to stop it's formation, after the death of Justinia. They don't just control the Templars in Southern Thedas, after all, but all the Templars that aren't tied to Tevinter.

In dialog with Josie, she'll indicate that one of the strengths of the Chantry is that it gives all the nations involved a "unifying" force. They all share the same beliefs, so it gives them common ground. You can, of course, point out that nobody fights like family, but, if the Chantry declares an Exalted March, all of their forces go. They didn't have that in this installment, since we have rebel mages and rebel Templars, as well as "loyal" mages and Templars, none of which were serving the Chantry's needs any more. That's why we go to Val Royeaux in the first place, to plant doubt amongst the remaining clerics. Like Giselle says, the only power they have throughout Inquisition is that they're unified. So we go to sow the seeds of doubt amongst them on their position on the Inquisition. If we'd had the Chantry in Inquisition we had in Origins, given their opinion of us, we'd have been Exalted Marched right out of existence.

They have a lot more power than you give them credit for, and I think you're basing it on them being toothless in this game. In the previous installments, they are anything but toothless. They have all the mages, and all the Templars, when they aren't splintered like they were here. The mage/Templar war devastated their power, but they still had enough political pull that we had to deal with them anyway. There are also later War Table missions that we get that deal with the Chantry starting to, once again, speak out against us. If they didn't have that political clout, we could completely ignore them.

[Cantina]

I’ve been messing around with the game, doing repeats to see which story direction is best for me. Last night the direction I chose, ended up getting me so damn pissed about Vivienne. I nearly threw my controller across the room.  

 

Towards the end of the game, I spoke with Vivienne. It was during this conversation, Vivienne admits to my character she only joined the Inquisition to use my character and The Inquisition to elevate her status in Orlais. Oh my character was pissed. All Vivienne did was smile all proud of herself and say, “It’s the game.”

 

Even when I first started playing this game, I had a suspicion Vivienne cared only for herself and not the goal of The Inquisition. But to now have this confirmed after several play throughs really wishes there was an option to slap the **** out of her and kick her out of The Inquisition.

 

Considering the confirmation of this, I am now left to figure out IF I should even bother allowing her to join.

 

Good job developers for creating a character that has become the most hated character I have come across in any DA game.

[Ryzaki]

I’ve been messing around with the game, doing repeats to see which story direction is best for me. Last night the direction I chose, ended up getting me so damn pissed about Vivienne. I nearly threw my controller across the room.  

 

Towards the end of the game, I spoke with Vivienne. It was during this conversation, Vivienne admits to my character she only joined the Inquisition to use my character and The Inquisition to elevate her status in Orlais. Oh my character was pissed. All Vivienne did was smile all proud of herself and say, “It’s the game.”

 

Even when I first started playing this game, I had a suspicion Vivienne cared only for herself and not the goal of The Inquisition. But to now have this confirmed after several play throughs really wishes there was an option to slap the **** out of her and kick her out of The Inquisition.

 

Considering the confirmation of this, I am now left to figure out IF I should even bother allowing her to join.

 

Good job developers for creating a character that has become the most hated character I have come across in any DA game.

 

Um...this surprised you?

 

Really?

[Ogillardetta]

I’ve been messing around with the game, doing repeats to see which story direction is best for me. Last night the direction I chose, ended up getting me so damn pissed about Vivienne. I nearly threw my controller across the room.  

 

Towards the end of the game, I spoke with Vivienne. It was during this conversation, Vivienne admits to my character she only joined the Inquisition to use my character and The Inquisition to elevate her status in Orlais. Oh my character was pissed. All Vivienne did was smile all proud of herself and say, “It’s the game.”

 

Even when I first started playing this game, I had a suspicion Vivienne cared only for herself and not the goal of The Inquisition. But to now have this confirmed after several play throughs really wishes there was an option to slap the **** out of her and kick her out of The Inquisition.

 

Considering the confirmation of this, I am now left to figure out IF I should even bother allowing her to join.

 

Good job developers for creating a character that has become the most hated character I have come across in any DA game.

Ditch her on her recruitment mission so you get the chance to make her dissapointed.

[Ryzaki]

Ditch her on her recruitment mission so you get the chance to make her dissapointed.

 

Heh I did that this run. The way she says "enjoy the salon." she was so mad. XD