What I realized with Duke Bastien's death is that she was disappointed about his death, but then quickly went to capitalize on it. And at one point I thought that maybe that potion was meant to accelerate his death.
It's also why I made soft Leliana Divine, because Leliana as Divine alongside a reunited Briala/Celene will counter any crap Vivienne tries to pull.
I assume because she's manipulative, power-hungry, and condescending.
I adore her though. Any time I need a good laugh I grab her and Sera for a stroll in the Hinterlands.
I don't hate her but her attitude when it comes to mage freedom and Grey wardens is grating. If you want to be friends with Viv you can't tell the truth with her (unless you agree of course) she will dislike you on principle alone.
In response from my view point..
1. Surprising is a bit of a stretch considering if you read between the lines of how Vivienne acts and speaks when you first encounter her. There is nothing wrong with having ambition, hell everyone within the Inquisition can be held accountable on that front. Vivienne however takes her ambitious nature and increases it twofold. Here is someone who not only plays but enjoys The Game. Anyone who enjoys such devious actions is one not to be trusted. Perhaps it is just who I am as a person, I tend to think of others before myself and Vivienne violates my compassionate nature thus making me despise her.
2. Overly ambitious people will do something not because they want too but because they have too. Understand, Vivienne joins the Inquisition not because she wants to stop Cory but because she wants to use The Inquisitor and The Inquisition to further her own career.I am sure some where down the list of her priorities stopping Cory is there, but it is not the main goal. A villain can stop to fed a puppy but one act of compassion does not mean I should over look all they wrong he/she has done.
3. This goes well beyond her view point of mages. By all means Vivienne can have her own views on mages. I may not agree with them but not everyone can agree on everything. A person like Vivienne becoming Divine is a scarey thought. Give an overly ambitious person power and everything MAY seem fine at first, but sooner or later they will want more power. I have a feeling that down the road making Vivienne Divine will end up causing chaos upon chaos. Considering how Vivienne is, making her Divine is no better then just handing the Sunburst Throne over to a Tevinter. Vivienne reminds me of someone from real life history, but I shall not name that person here or ever.
Finally...
As for Fiona, yes she did make mistakes, I for one am pro mage yet I do not agree with Fiona's actions. I do however have more respect for Fiona then for Vivienne. Fiona did all she could to safeguard her fellow mages, she cares so much that causes Fiona to make bad choices. I admire Fiona's compassion and her selfless nature.
Vivienne on the other hand cares only for herself and will care about others only if there is something she needs from them. Oh sure, Vivienne puts on a grand show with The Duke, but anyone as manipulative as Vivienne can do the same. I do not believe for a second that Vivienne truly loved this man, his money and status, but not the man. But I digress, Vivienne is a selfish person not the sort of person I could ever idolize much less give two bits about.
In my eyes Vivienne is the villain within The Inquisition walls, a snake in the grass. I no problems with ambitious people in or out of the game, but when someone like Vivienne takes it as far as some politicians do, that is cause for concerned. I'd be far more comfortable with an assassin hiding in the shadows then be in the presence of someone like Vivienne.
Out of all the companions Vivienne is an odd fit. She belongs in Orlais throwing parties and proving whatever it is she needs to prove.
Compared to the other companions the only thing she brings to the Inquisition is giving me a headache. Thus I believe from this point on, I will no longer recruit her. Sure this may seem strange to some but I've already played a game without Vivienne being recruited and to be honest, it was nice not having a Viper in the grass.
See, I don't think someone being ambitious and out for themselves is a bad thing, so long as said ambition doesn't push them to commit atrocities or incredibly stupid and reckless moves (like some). Actions weight far heavier than motives or words. Vivienne does neither. She pledges the support of her Circle, as well as her own expertise, and even if you do things that go completely against her beliefs she is still around and even acts a bit supporting in a few conversations.
Indeed, her ambition is a known quantity. It makes her reasonably predictable. I figure if you need to fear someone in the Inquisition, you need to fear the likes of Iron Bull (who hides more things than her), Blackwall, or if you distrust spirits Cole, or hell even wild cards like Sera. I don't see her as a viper in the grass, since she is too transparent for that.
The Inquisition is what she needs; Orlais is too divided, the Chantry is toothless, her own Circle is weak, and the Templars have gone AWOL or mad. She has practically no reason to betray you at all, even attempting a takeover is out of the question with people like Cassandra or Leliana around. If she needs the Inquisition, she will help it. And so long as she's around to help, me and most of my PC couldn't care less what benefits she gets from it. Saving the world is more important than making sure X person you don't like doesn't get her way.
Fiona I have 0 respect for. Whatever her reasons, twice now she had made actions that were stupid, reckless, and put the lives of almost every single mage in Thedas on the line. She allied with friggin Tevinter, for frick's sake. I have no patience for people in power who prove to be irresponsible idiots, and Fiona definitely is one, regardless of her motives or how compassionate she claims to be. Besides, said compassion sure as hell didn't stop her and hers from standing by while the Venatori butchered the Tranquil to go on their magical easter egg hunt.
Not all agency is appealing. This woman literally wants to go back where all mages were pratically slaves and she was the chief amongst them , she might not have been the highest power but she had power over others. Also being condescending has never been an appealing trait
Exactly, she wants to cram everyone except her back into the towers to be raped and abused by Templars to further her own power, she could be an awesome evil character if she was more honest.
In my opinion Viv is a person recognicing that the power she's built over long decades is slipping. The duke whom her influence and wealth relies on is dying, her position as first enchanter means little, despite her claims to the contrary, and Morrigan has replaced her at Celene's side. She has joined the Inquisition because it's her only chance to restore the status quo, and possibly keep or expand her power.
All this I get. But She is not well written as a political mastermind. Bioware mighty have tried to make it sees as such, but that isn't how she comes accross. She is petty, childish if you happen not to agree with her, condercending, insult you and others, and thinks her third hand knowledge of the Dalish is more relevant than Lavellan's own experience if you play as Dalish. There is also No way to get the last word or rebute her arguments, which is just frustrating. At least in previous game you could tell people like her where to stick it.
Precisely this. Ambition has to be tempered with subtley or backed with true power, and on that front, Vivienne isn't written to be nearly as smart as she/the writers think she is. She got absolutely jack accomplished in most of my playthroughs because none of my Inquisitors could stand her. She got put in the party just long enough to recruit one agent in the Hinterlands, her books and wyvern heart in my first playthrough, then left to rot for the most part. All her naked ambition and contempt got her was used herself.
To be fair, the comparitively shallow coversation paths wrt to the companions are a problem across the board in DA:I, especially if you're playing a non-human. I miss conversations like the one about Orlesian servitude my Dalish Warden had with Lelianna, where the argument got unexpectedly complex and even uncomfortable. But when you have to pay at least five different VA's to get a coversation completed as opposed to just one, I suppose loss of content is inevitable.
See, I don't think someone being ambitious and out for themselves is a bad thing, so long as said ambition doesn't push them to commit atrocities or incredibly stupid and reckless moves (like some). Actions weight far heavier than motives or words. Vivienne does neither. She pledges the support of her Circle, as well as her own expertise, and even if you do things that go completely against her beliefs she is still around and even acts a bit supporting in a few conversations.
Indeed, her ambition is a known quantity. It makes her reasonably predictable. I figure if you need to fear someone in the Inquisition, you need to fear the likes of Iron Bull (who hides more things than her), Blackwall, or if you distrust spirits Cole, or hell even wild cards like Sera. I don't see her as a viper in the grass, since she is too transparent for that.
The Inquisition is what she needs; Orlais is too divided, the Chantry is toothless, her own Circle is weak, and the Templars have gone AWOL or mad. She has practically no reason to betray you at all, even attempting a takeover is out of the question with people like Cassandra or Leliana around. If she needs the Inquisition, she will help it. And so long as she's around to help, me and most of my PC couldn't care less what benefits she gets from it. Saving the world is more important than making sure X person you don't like doesn't get her way.
Fiona I have 0 respect for. Whatever her reasons, twice now she had made actions that were stupid, reckless, and put the lives of almost every single mage in Thedas on the line. She allied with friggin Tevinter, for frick's sake. I have no patience for people in power who prove to be irresponsible idiots, and Fiona definitely is one, regardless of her motives or how compassionate she claims to be. Besides, said compassion sure as hell didn't stop her and hers from standing by while the Venatori butchered the Tranquil to go on their magical easter egg hunt.
Perhaps you are forgetting that during the game, Vivienne admits that she only joined The Inquisition to improve her status. Thus not only using The Inquisitor and The Inquisition. I for one was rather pissed-very pissed- about her admitting to such an atrocious act of selfishness.
This Inquisition is what Vivienne needs but only because she needs somewhere else to leech off of in order to gain higher status. Since everything else has gone to crap the best place to leech is The Inquisition.
YOU honestly think Vivienne would make a youth potion to save her Duke? Please. She wanted to make the Duke young and healthy again because it would allow her more years to leech off the man. Since he is dead, now all his assets are going to be divvied among the family.
Beyond that for all her so called wisdom, Vivienne actually is not only shallow but quite blind to real life. She told My Inquisitor that The Divine in The Fade was actually a Demon. Vivienne was not even there in The Fade and there IS a difference between spirits and demons. Apparently Vivienne has no concept of discerning the two. A person who claims to have all the answers is a person who only thinks they ARE right and YOU are wrong.
Comparing Vivienne to the other companions is a far stretch. Cole just wants to help, hell he help alert my character at Haven and saved people’s lives. Cole just needs a little help understanding how the world works and how to be human. He wants to learn and grow.
I don’t recall Iron Bull hiding anything. Sure, he is (was) a spy, but he was up front about it. From then out he was always loyal and honest with my character. IF he had anything further to reveal Bull has never done so on any of my game plays.
Blackwall, made a mistake, but how many of us or those in the game made mistakes? In the end he owned up to his mistake. He could have done so earlier, but Blackwall was afraid. For someone to jump into The Inquisition knowing that at some point they could be exposed is a rather brave thing to do. Yes, the trust between my character and Blackwall will need to be rebuilt but I cannot condemn a man who tries and never gives up.
As for Sera, she is young and has lived within the shadows far too long. Yes, she can be rather hard to understand and blind to certain views. However, when it comes to Sera you need to have patience as if you are in the presence of a teenager. My sister acts similarly, so when it comes to Sera, I can and willing to have the patience to see us through to friendship.
I knew someone in real life who acted exactly like Vivienne and trust me the story and the end result was not pleasant. People who are like Vivienne ARE vipers. Those who cannot see the dangerous ambitious nature of people like Vivienne, are the ones who end up not only being surprised the most but also the ones who end up questioning more as to how and why it happened. They alone will be far more hurt by such dangerous ambitious actions then those who knew along.
Being ambitious is one thing but when your ambition is so great (like Vivienne's ) it can and will become dangerous not only to your Inquisitor but those around. Dangerous Ambition only benefits the person wielding it and woe to anyone who gets in their way.
But giantdeathrobot, I suppose it’s best we agree to disagree.
She's a victim of the 'Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts' syndrome, where Bioware set characters and situations up to be full of deadly, political intrigue and machiavellian masterminds etc etc, but their writers aren't nearly comfortable actually executing that. Her character should be divinely elegant, with elements of cruelty and subtlety, with inscrutable motives who will constantly surprise you with either sheer ruthlessness or unexpected compassion etc etc.
But instead she just comes across as a tiresomely snobbish, overtly superior and haughty character, who basically spends 99% of the game, insulting people to their faces because she feels entitled to do so and/or knows they can't or won't do anything about it. She is less nasty to your character (If you agree with her anyway), but only because she is using you in a very obvious way. I just saw her as an even more irritating version of Morrigan. In the case of Morrigan, that character can sometimes reach (to quote a description of Ace Attorney character Franziska Von Karma), a state of being 'So openly hostile, its actually quite endearing'. And her cat and dog fighting with Alistair is great (because whilst Alistair usually loses, he does occasionally get a win over her).
But Vivienne... eh. And I was playing as a character who basically agreed with everything she said about the Circle, if not her attitude. I just kept thinking of what Sherrif Harry Truman of Twin Peaks says in an early episode to Dale's outrageously abrasive and rude FBI friend - 'People who come round here, talking this kind of crap, will pretty soon be looking for their teeth, somewhere up on Queer Street'.
I.e, its hard to see why people don't just say 'Oh, just f**k off!' to her. They just don't sell her a woman of power and influence (magically or politically etc etc). And they continually get this wrong with the nobility in this game. On the war room operations, you hear of and receive letters from nobles who have done good work, who use their station to help those in need, or at least make sure the wheels are turning so resources get where they need to go etc etc etc. But all the nobles you *actually* see in game, are just preening fools. Take 'Champions of the Just', where Orlais thinks sending obviously spoiled and out of touch nobles in ballroom finery to meet with the down to earth Templars, who are waging a war on matters of principle and uuty.
Its at odds with what Aveline points out in Mark of the Assassin, where she urges the party not to judge Orlais too harshly because of all the foolish nutcases they see at the hunt. Because she says 'Not all Orlesians are this silly - my father wasn't. and if I'd stayed, I wouldn't have been either'. Its just a symptom of how steretypically Bioware write such characters. Spies also come across very poorly, with all spies and assassins being a variant of a Bond Girl (and yes, that includes Zevran). They simply don't have the will or the interest to provide a selection of different personalties beyond simple 'pompous and ignorant', 'Nasty and self important', 'silly and ditzy' etc etc etc,
Vivienne falls into this trap. She is a very stereotypical noble who's always chuntering away about how uncouth and ill bred everyone is, how the others should know their places, how she's doing them a huge favour even letting them think their opinions on anything matter etc. And yet we never see any examples of why she should be accorded any respect, not that the way she speaks to people would be acceptable regardless fo what she was capable of.
As one of my rather blunt mates put it when he heard her speak 'Shut your gob, you snooty cow!' LIke I say, a bit blunt but I can't say I disagree with that sentiment in this case.
But instead she just comes across as a tiresomely snobbish, overtly superior and haughty character, who basically spends 99% of the game, insulting people to their faces because she feels entitled to do so and/or knows they can't or won't do anything about it.
I keep hoping Viv will eventually display just one redeeming quality ... but alas no.
Well viv's greatest fear is irrelevance and it was pretty awesome when cole exposes her like a boss. 
Well, what I found unappealing about Vivienne is this. She starts by telling that Kirkwall wasn't the worst of worst. Okay, so... If someone in power called for a Rite of Annulment, in other words, killing all the mages... Err, umm, wait, what? What's worse than that?
In another example, if I said that all members of a said country had to die and I had the power to do anything about it (or to make it happen), and then for you to come along and tell another person that, "Awww c'mon man. It wasn't that bad."
Err, wait, what?
It was at that point I stopped talking to her and she can go and pound sand on my next play throughs.
Perhaps you are forgetting that during the game, Vivienne admits that she only joined The Inquisition to improve her status. Thus not only using The Inquisitor and The Inquisition. I for one was rather pissed-very pissed- about her admitting to such an atrocious act of selfishness.
This Inquisition is what Vivienne needs but only because she needs somewhere else to leech off of in order to gain higher status. Since everything else has gone to crap the best place to leech is The Inquisition.
YOU honestly think Vivienne would make a youth potion to save her Duke? Please. She wanted to make the Duke young and healthy again because it would allow her more years to leech off the man. Since he is dead, now all his assets are going to be divvied among the family.
Beyond that for all her so called wisdom, Vivienne actually is not only shallow but quite blind to real life. She told My Inquisitor that The Divine in The Fade was actually a Demon. Vivienne was not even there in The Fade and there IS a difference between spirits and demons. Apparently Vivienne has no concept of discerning the two. A person who claims to have all the answers is a person who only thinks they ARE right and YOU are wrong.
Comparing Vivienne to the other companions is a far stretch. Cole just wants to help, hell he help alert my character at Haven and saved people’s lives. Cole just needs a little help understanding how the world works and how to be human. He wants to learn and grow.
I don’t recall Iron Bull hiding anything. Sure, he is (was) a spy, but he was up front about it. From then out he was always loyal and honest with my character. IF he had anything further to reveal Bull has never done so on any of my game plays.
Blackwall, made a mistake, but how many of us or those in the game made mistakes? In the end he owned up to his mistake. He could have done so earlier, but Blackwall was afraid. For someone to jump into The Inquisition knowing that at some point they could be exposed is a rather brave thing to do. Yes, the trust between my character and Blackwall will need to be rebuilt but I cannot condemn a man who tries and never gives up.
As for Sera, she is young and has lived within the shadows far too long. Yes, she can be rather hard to understand and blind to certain views. However, when it comes to Sera you need to have patience as if you are in the presence of a teenager. My sister acts similarly, so when it comes to Sera, I can and willing to have the patience to see us through to friendship.
I knew someone in real life who acted exactly like Vivienne and trust me the story and the end result was not pleasant. People who are like Vivienne ARE vipers. Those who cannot see the dangerous ambitious nature of people like Vivienne, are the ones who end up not only being surprised the most but also the ones who end up questioning more as to how and why it happened. They alone will be far more hurt by such dangerous ambitious actions then those who knew along.
Being ambitious is one thing but when your ambition is so great (like Vivienne's ) it can and will become dangerous not only to your Inquisitor but those around. Dangerous Ambition only benefits the person wielding it and woe to anyone who gets in their way.
But giantdeathrobot, I suppose it’s best we agree to disagree.
I still don't see why it matters so much. So long as she doesn't betray the Inquisition (and she never does nor has any reason to), she could only have signed up to get free cookies for all I care. I can't really hear the complaints about her being overly ambitious over the sound of her Spirit Blade cleaving a Red Templar in half with the best of them.
I keep hoping Viv will eventually display just one redeeming quality ... but alas no.
She's actually extremely loyal and supportive if you are good friends with her. I had this chat with her last night after What Pride Had Wrought, and it was, to me, one of the most comforting conversations I've had in 2 playthroughs.
I still don't see why it matters so much. So long as she doesn't betray the Inquisition (and she never does nor has any reason to), she could only have signed up to get free cookies for all I care. I can't really hear the complaints about her being overly ambitious over the sound of her Spirit Blade cleaving a Red Templar in half with the best of them.
And there lies the blindness. Betrayal has many forms and layers. Vivienne did betray The Inquisition but more importantly The Inquisitor. Joining under the false pretense that you believe in what The Inquisition is doing and later for her to reveal that the true reason she joined was to further her own ambition.
She does not care about The Inquisition, she only cares about using them. And for Vivienne to practically pat herself on the back for doing such a good job at betraying and manipulating The Inquisitor and The Inquisition just rubs salt in a gaping bleeding wound.
Maybe a MOD person can turn Vivienne's blade color red and give off the sounds of a light saber. <smirks> It certainly would play well with the type of person she is.
And there lies the blindness. Betrayal has many forms and layers. Vivienne did betray The Inquisition but more importantly The Inquisitor. Joining under the false pretense that you believe in what The Inquisition is doing and later for her to reveal that the true reason she joined was to further her own ambition.
She does not care about The Inquisition, she only cares about using them. And for Vivienne to practically pat herself on the back for doing such a good job at betraying and manipulating The Inquisitor and The Inquisition just rubs salt in a gaping bleeding wound.
Maybe a MOD person can turn Vivienne's blade color red and give off the sounds of a light saber. <smirks> It certainly would play well with the type of person she is.
I'm not sure betrayal means what you think it means.
Because she's an immensely annoying, arrogant, condescending ****** who I would desperately LOOOOVVVVVEE to Kill, after making her beg for forgiveness on her knees. She is the most unlikeable character I've ever met in a computer game or real life.
Seriously there should be a challenge option where you can fight friendly npcs I would beat her to a pulp often.
And there lies the blindness. Betrayal has many forms and layers. Vivienne did betray The Inquisition but more importantly The Inquisitor. Joining under the false pretense that you believe in what The Inquisition is doing and later for her to reveal that the true reason she joined was to further her own ambition.
She does not care about The Inquisition, she only cares about using them. And for Vivienne to practically pat herself on the back for doing such a good job at betraying and manipulating The Inquisitor and The Inquisition just rubs salt in a gaping bleeding wound.
Maybe a MOD person can turn Vivienne's blade color red and give off the sounds of a light saber. <smirks> It certainly would play well with the type of person she is.
That's not what betrayal is. Vivienne is perfectly okay with helping the Inquisition do what it is destined to do, she just wants to benefit herself as well. That would more correctly be considered a "mutual" alliance.
It would be betrayal if Vivienne sold your secrets, ambushed your forces, left you weak for the Elder One. But she doesn't. At worst, she rearranges the furniture. Petty, but not life threatening.
People don't like Viv because she's a complete hard-ass. And she is, she has a lot of bad features. A lot of her banter reeks of undeserved arrogance. But personally, I like her. Some of it ends up being pretty funny, and in her dialogues, she quite damn reasonable.
I don't hate her but her attitude when it comes to mage freedom and Grey wardens is grating. If you want to be friends with Viv you can't tell the truth with her (unless you agree of course) she will dislike you on principle alone.
Ironically, in my first run only Vivienne and Anders ended as rivals, heck even Varric loved the real Anders (carbon copy from the Awakenings' one) even if Anders was a constant douchebag against him (think about it, some low self-steemed guy that makes himself famous by writting a book that portraits you as something YOU ARE NOT, heck I doubt even Jesus will forgive that).
At the end, Anders gave her a cheap wyvern heart and said "well... ****". Not to mention she was one of the few characters that didn't fall for his charms (I was tempted to woo Iron bull but that would had been OOC)
Regarding the Grey Wardens, I would love to know how her opinion would change if she knew about their role against the archdemons.
Regarding the Grey Wardens, I would love to know how her opinion would change if she knew about their role against the archdemons.
I suspect Vivienne would be long dead before admitting she was wrong. Cantina made some great points about Vivienne's personality and I agree with them. But you kind of have to question why this character is the way she is.
Vivienne is a mage, which I'm sure most of you are well aware is kind of like being born with a horrible plague. Unless you do something drastic with your life, you'll likely spend the rest of your time stuck up a tower and on rare occurrences, be let out to wonder the wilds before getting stuck up another tower. Transfering to another, more elite mage tower was just the first step. Catching the eye of a noble, the next. Each step has been in an attempt to gain more power over her life, to escape the fear of becoming just another mage, trapped in a word that fears magic. A deep internal fear that likely drives her pride and ambition. Mistress, Grand Enchanter, Court Enchanter, Knight Enchanter, Member of the Inquisition, and even Divine are all just stepping stones. It's quite likely there there will never be an end point for Vivienne.
Underneath the honey sweat words of venom, the fine silks robes, the excessive overconfidence and pride. You may find a very different person.
I actually think her not being subversient to the PC is one of her more definining and interesting traits. Bioware has used us a bit too much to the idea that everyone in the party eventually worships the very ground the PC walks on. Admitedly they broke that with Anders, but that seemed a step too far in the other direction.
Vivienne has her morals and motives set in stone. You can like her or not, she won't change for you and won't bend over backwards to accomodate your feelings. In real life it's very probable I would dislike her as well. But as a video game character coming from a company that's a bit too used to having everyone be friends? She's a breath of fresh air. I like that she stands up to the Inquisitor and sneers at people who have opposed opinions. It makes her more interesting and human (IMO) than if she was a doormat who agreed with you because you gave her enough cakes or whatever.
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