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[rigron]

She is pro-slavery of mages, judges people by their looks and not by how they really are and she only thinks and cares about herself and her political rush. She is a very hateable character.

[Ogillardetta]

Mages need some form of control, I didn't believe that before Fiona did what she did. I only helped the mages on one playthrough and then I conscripted them because they weren't what I was expecting... Ser Barris -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> Fiona.

Edit: I agree with Vivianne (something I never thought would happen when I first watched the trailers.)

 

[mikeymoonshine]

She is pro-slavery of mages, judges people by their looks and not by how they really are and she only thinks and cares about herself and her political rush. She is a very hateable character.

 

 

I'm so tired of hearing this, yeah she cares about her own wants and needs and she isn't nicey nicey to people who disagree with her. That does not mean she lacks empathy entirely. 

[Kleon]

Because, unlike with Sera, you don't get dialogue options to challenge her or kick her out of Skyhold. All dialogue choices you get with her lead to either kissing her ass or sounding stupid. 

[Rifneno]

Because, unlike with Sera, you don't get dialogue options to challenge her or kick her out of Skyhold. All dialogue choices you get with her lead to either kissing her ass or sounding stupid.

BUT SHE R TEH WELL WRITTTEN!1111oneoneone

[Enrychan]

Vivienne doesn't care a fig for the cause of mages, what she wants is personal power. Why? Because she is fragile and terrified of "irrelevance" (her greatest fear in the Fade). Every dialogue with Cole has its focus on that.

 

Cole: She's afraid!

Cole: Everything bright, roar of anger as the demon rears. No, I will not fall. No one will ever control me again.

Cole: Flash of white as the world comes back. Shaking, hollow, Harrowed, but smiling at templars to show them I'm me.

Cole: I am not like that. I can protect you. If templars come for you, I will kill them.

 

Even her position of enchanter of the Imperial Court is due to her relationship with Duke Bastien, as she herself confirms, if you ask her. But at the same time she condems and considers foolish every mage who rebels in hope to get a better life and more freedom without having to get some noble to bed like she did.

 

Also she doesn't respect anyone but herself and those who share her status, religion and ideas. The poor people in the Emerald Graves who consider Fairbanks their leader? They are "cave rats". The cult of the sky practiced by the Avvar? "Ridiculous superstitions" - because the Maker and his Bride aren't another "superstition"? ? that's *right* religion apparently??

 

In other words she is arrogant, small-minded, egocentric, rude and dismissive. Also "a woman who seems strong at first but deep down she's actually really fragile", a trope that unfortunately never gets old.

I'm not sure that was exactly the writers' intent from the start. I got the distinct impression that they wanted to make her more fascinating and mysterious. But in the end that's how she came out for me.

[Nerevar-as]

 

I'm so tired of hearing this, yeah she cares about her own wants and needs and she isn't nicey nicey to people who disagree with her. That does not mean she lacks empathy entirely. 

Well, so far I haven´t seen it. She´s all "I´m doing great and how dare those whose life is **** spoil it? Also, talks a lot of rubbish as if it was gospel, such as when she says the Ferelden Circle surely missed Templars when pride Uldred rose. Considering the Templar plan was wiping everybody out before HoF showed, I doubt it. Also, wonder if her being black is coincidence or intended.

[Kierro Ren]

This thread needs cookies.

 

 

Happy Holidays everyone...

 

There is... interesting food here. You have a thing... it doesn't have a word in the qunari tongue. Little baked things, like bread, but sweet, and crumbly.

 

Happy Holidays to all the puny bas, and fellow Qunari.

[Rifneno]

Vivienne doesn't care a fig for the cause of mages, what she wants is personal power. Why? Because she is fragile and terrified of "irrelevance" (her greatest fear in the Fade). Every dialogue with Cole has its focus on that.

 

Cole: She's afraid!

Cole: Everything bright, roar of anger as the demon rears. No, I will not fall. No one will ever control me again.

 

"No one will ever control me again."

 

And she wants to put every other mage under templar rule.  God, I want to put her to the brand so bad.  Corypheus is an antihero compared to Vivienne.

[mikeymoonshine]

Vivienne doesn't care a fig for the cause of mages, what she wants is personal power. Why? Because she is fragile and terrified of "irrelevance" (her greatest fear in the Fade). Every dialogue with Cole has its focus on that.

 

Cole: She's afraid!

Cole: Everything bright, roar of anger as the demon rears. No, I will not fall. No one will ever control me again.

Cole: Flash of white as the world comes back. Shaking, hollow, Harrowed, but smiling at templars to show them I'm me.

Cole: I am not like that. I can protect you. If templars come for you, I will kill them.

 

This isn't evidence for your clam that she doesn't care about other mages. If anything her banter with Cole shows that she does care about other mages, that's why she was still dwelling on the mages the rebels killed in the tower. Cole can only hear thoughts when they are linked to pain, she was obviously traumatized by what the rebels did to those mages and that is probably a big part of why she hates them so much. 

 

 

 

Even her position of enchanter of the Imperial Court is due to her relationship with Duke Bastien, as she herself confirms, if you ask her. But at the same time she condems and considers foolish every mage who rebels in hope to get a better life and more freedom without having to get some noble to bed like she did.

 

That position existed before she held it. She used her connection with Bastien to secure it for herself but another mage would have gotten it otherwise. She also obviously is not against mages having political power for very obvious reasons that should be obvious.  

 

 

And she wants to put every other mage under templar rule.  God, I want to put her to the brand so bad.  Corypheus is an antihero compared to Vivienne.

 

No she wants to put Templars under her rule and she does if made divine. Her support for the circle does not mean she wants them to be run by Templars, she just believes Templars are needed.

[Lucky Thirteen]

 

**Who is Viv's male counterpart that everyone loves??

 

I'd have to say that both Dorian and Solas carry similar characteristics of being arrogant and general give off vibes of being better than everyone else.

 

Solas is stuck in the past, not wanting things to change as exemplified with Cole. Told my Qunari inquisitor he was shocked she wasn't some stupid, violent beast running on impulses. Thanks man. Not to mention, Solas name means pride. 

 

Dorian has an opinion on slavery similar to a white supremacist. Everyone is always trashing on Viv about wanting to keep the oppressive nature of the circle and trashing on Sera for her self racism. Dorian essentially says black people had it better as white people's slaves, but it's elves as slaves to humans.   Very much like Vivienne, Dorian's thinking runs along the lines of "As long as I'm the one in power and I'm comfortable, there's nothing wrong with the way things are and you should all be thankful for the way things are." 

[LobselVith8]

I have a feeling that if Vivienne were in favour of mage freedom and the rebellion, but otherwise the exact same character, she'd be loved a lot more. 

 

I'm certain that Vivienne's support of an institution that some of us are morally opposed to plays a part, but she's also someone who is condescending to a protagonist who simply disagrees with her (as opposed to Cullen, for example, who actually acts like a rational, mature adult when faced with a main character who has a different opinion than him), and having to listen to her talk over my Lavellan mage when he tries to correct her because she heard rumors (which she thinks makes her more informed about the Dalish than my elven Inquisitor) doesn't really help matters.

 

Cullen and my Lavellan disagreed about the mages and the templars, but I rather liked Cullen in Inquisition because he was able to disagree with my character without becoming some petty, petulant child about it, while I strongly disliked Vivienne because she simply couldn't tolerate disagreement from my Lavellan and had to act out like a kindergartner because of it.

[Ashagar]

I disagree Dorian view is more closely that of a roman and other people of the ancient world than that of a white supremist when it comes to slavery. Not surprising as is the form of slavery practiced by Tevintor is akin of the slavery practiced in the ancient world and that Tevintor is a Rome fantasy counterpart with magic complete with a senate, a number of roman style titles and legions.

[Lucky Thirteen]

I disagree Dorian view is more closely that of a roman and other people of the ancient world than that of a white supremist when it comes to slavery. Not surprising as is the form of slavery practiced by Tevintor is akin of the slavery practiced in the ancient world and that Tevintor is a Rome fantasy counterpart with magic complete with a senate, a number of roman style titles and legions.

 

Oh, I agree that Tevinter is very similar to ancient Rome. However, I disagree that saying it was like ancient Rome makes it any less of a horrible, oppressive establishment designed to keep a certain group of people in power over others. Also, ancient Rome didn't have a race issue, they had black emperors and enslaved everyone considered beneath them. Tevinter has a serious race issue. You'll never see an elf rise to higher statuses. Like Dorian says, they dream about it and tell stories about it, but it will never happen. 

[mikeymoonshine]

Dorian just said he hadn't thought about it that much, he then says that for many it is a better life than in the alianage and the slums, this is true but still an excuse. It's an understandable position considering how he was raised though, it's like how in Origins Leliana had never questioned the status of elves in Orlais. If we see him again in future hopefully he will have considered it some more and realized why he was wrong like Leliana does when the Warden points it out. 

[Lucky Thirteen]

Dorian just said he hadn't thought about it that much, he then says that for many it is a better life than in the alianage and the slums, this is true but still an excuse. It's an understandable position considering how he was raised though, it's like how Leliana never questioned the status of elves in Orlais in Origins. If we see him again in future hopefully he will have considered it some more and realized why he was wrong like Leliana does when the Warden points it out. 

 

Yes. Agree. A character without flaws is flat and boring. That is the conclusion I came with Dorian, Solas, and Vivienne. However, it seems like to the forums a character with flaws while female is one the most heinous things in existence. 

[mikeymoonshine]

Yes. Agree. A character without flaws is flat and boring. That is the conclusion I came with Dorian, Solas, and Vivienne. However, it seems like to the forums a character with flaws while female is one the most heinous things in existence. 

 

Honestly it's weird, Anders and Fenris both held strong opinions and were totally spiteful to those who did not share those opinions (especially each other) Sebastian was a massive hypocrite, Morrigan was cruel and Ignorant at times, Sten was a Qunari. Vivienne is really not unique when it comes to negative traits. 

[Cette]

Honestly it's weird, Anders and Fenris both held strong opinions and were totally spiteful to those who did not share those opinions (especially each other) Sebastian was a massive hypocrite, Morrigan was cruel and Ignorant at times, Sten was a Qunari. Vivienne is really not unique when it comes to negative traits. 

 

 

And you're honestly saying you haven't seen more griping about those exact characters in the past than others from their same cast?

It's not like everyone's saying that those characters are saints while Vivienne is a monster.  Which I mean she is but I'd argue Fenris is probably a worse person and Sebastian may actually be just as obnoxious.

Morrigan seems to get some weird pass based off being a preferred love interest.

[StrangeStrategy]

She is pro-slavery of mages, judges people by their looks and not by how they really are and she only thinks and cares about herself and her political rush. She is a very hateable character.

 

... God, some people xD

[Lucky Thirteen]

Honestly it's weird, Anders and Fenris both held strong opinions and were totally spiteful to those who did not share those opinions (especially each other) Sebastian was a massive hypocrite, Morrigan was cruel and Ignorant at times, Sten was a Qunari. Vivienne is really not unique when it comes to negative traits. 

 

I'd take Morrigan out of that list if I were you. People hate her so much that they made a mod in DA:O where people can punch her and people are already discussing plans to make one for Vivienne. There are a lot of people who very proudly talk about stabbing Morrigan in the gut before she enters the mirror too.  In addition, I saw a lot of people outraged you can actually punch Solas and Dorian in the game and they called it terrible double standards, meanwhile  in the very same thread people discussed the extreme desire to beat the hell out of, kill, throw off the balcony, or make Vivienne tranquil. Lol. 

[mikeymoonshine]

And you're honestly saying you haven't seen more griping about those exact characters in the past than others from their same cast?

 

I've heard more people bitching about Wynne's nagging, Oghren's Oghrenness and Merril's naivety than I have about some of those characters yes. 

[Grieving Natashina]

I'd take Morrigan out of that list if I were you. People hate her so much that they made a mod in DA:O where people can punch her and people are already discussing plans to make one for Vivienne. There are a lot of people who very proudly talk about stabbing Morrigan in the gut before she enters the mirror too.  In addition, I saw a lot of people outraged you can actually punch Solas and Dorian in the game and they called it terrible double standards, meanwhile  in the very same thread people discussed the extreme desire to beat the hell out of, kill, throw off the balcony, or make Vivienne tranquil. Lol. 

I owe you a like for this.

 

When someone puts it like that, it shows that the BSN really does get morbid as hell sometimes.

[mikeymoonshine]

I'd take Morrigan out of that list if I were you. People hate her so much that they made a mod in DA:O where people can punch her and people are already discussing plans to make one for Vivienne. There are a lot of people who very proudly talk about stabbing Morrigan in the gut before she enters the mirror too.  In addition, I saw a lot of people outraged you can actually punch Solas and Dorian in the game and they called it terrible double standards, meanwhile  in the very same thread people discussed the extreme desire to beat the hell out of, kill, throw off the balcony, or make Vivienne tranquil. Lol. 

 

You are right but Morrigan still has quite a lot of fans, some of that will be because she is an LI but Viv just feels far more hated. It's too early to compare though I guess. 

[Ryzaki]

Eh I like Vivi.

 

She can be an arrogant ass but hey it's part of her character.

 

I have more of an issue with stupid than anything. My issue with Morrigan was she was stupid evil in DAO and I couldn't call her on it.

 

Wynne nagged me about issues she had no clue on either.

 

That said my most disliked companion in DAO was Loghain by a landslide so...

[Vit246]

I dislike the crappy parts of her arguments. The "bad timing"? The mass murder by magic in Kirkwall? Everybody talks about the murder of the Kirkwall Grand Cleric, but nobody ever seems to talk about the murder of the mages by the templars for the actions of an apostate. And as for the "bad timing"? Well too f!cking bad. Because after Kirkwall, the Templars started cracking down on mages even harder than before. Exterminating the Rivain Circle? The dissolution of mage gatherings and any semblance of mage authority and sovereignty left? Did Vivienne want the mages to just bend over and take it all some more? The starting of the rebellion couldn't be helped! And I think MLK has something to say about "bad timing".