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[rigron]

That does not mean she lacks empathy entirely. 

 

Actually yes, she does.

[Rifneno]

Yes. Agree. A character without flaws is flat and boring. That is the conclusion I came with Dorian, Solas, and Vivienne. However, it seems like to the forums a character with flaws while female is one the most heinous things in existence.

 

Solas doesn't belong in that group.  His opinion of the Qunari is correct.  They are nothing but monsters.  Of course, I speak only of the Qunari and not the Qunari.  That's a vital difference.  Not every Qunari is a Qunari.

 

Huh.  It's almost as if it was a brainmeltingly stupid idea to get rid of the word "kossith" and use "qunari" for everything.  But that can't be!

 

Anyway, the difference is that Dorian is far more practical and less selfish (he's not saying slavery is awesome, he's just saying it's going to suck no matter what if you're on the bottom wrung of society), but perhaps more importantly, he only talks about it once and that's if you dig around his convo tree and bring it up to him.  Vivienne never shuts the hell up about how other mages should be locked up by rapists and murderers and how the rules apply to everyone (except her apparently).

 

Do you see a scene where Dorian goes out of his way to antagonize you because you freed some slaves?  Because I don't see that scene.

 

But of course it's misogyny because thinking is hard.

 

Honestly it's weird, Anders and Fenris both held strong opinions and were totally spiteful to those who did not share those opinions (especially each other) Sebastian was a massive hypocrite, Morrigan was cruel and Ignorant at times, Sten was a Qunari. Vivienne is really not unique when it comes to negative traits.

 

I bloody hate most of those characters.  Fenris I want dead bad enough to let his slaver handler live so he'll turn on me at the Gallows and I get to put him down like the rabid dog he is.  Sebastian I desperately wished was in the Chantry when Anders become the Unsong Hero of Thedas.  But more than that, I wanted to murderknife him when his mouth started making threats his sorry ass can't cash.  Morrigan... well, I take Flemeth up on her offer even thinking it'd cost Morrigan her life.  Lulz.  (female mabari) about how I didn't set a box of kittens on fire now, will you Morrigan?  Sten?  I leave the mindless, soulless qunari monster in his cell to starve like he deserves.  Butcher a family who tried to help you, even the children, and then rant about how my saintly mage is a monster that needs to be locked up?  Qunari sicken me.  They're worse than the darkspawn.

 

The mystery here is why you think these characters are all loved or something.  You act like they don't all have lots, and LOTS of haters.  Anders, Fenris, and Sebastian especially are some of the most unpopular characters in the series.  Because people aren't ranting about them on a subforum for a game they're no in, you think it's cause to act like everyone loved them?  What foolishness is this?

[Vit246]

However, it seems like to the forums a character with flaws while female is one the most heinous things in existence. 

Oh Christ in Hell.

I don't wanna derail this , but are you REALLY gonna pin the anti-Vivienne hate on her gender?

Cuz if she was a man, I'd still hold the same opinions.

[Rifneno]

Oh Christ in Hell.
I don't wanna derail this , but are you REALLY gonna pin the anti-Vivienne hate on her gender?
Cuz if she was a man, I'd still hold the same opinions.

Thinking is hard! It's gotta be misogyny!

[Roninbarista]

Honestly it's weird, Anders and Fenris both held strong opinions and were totally spiteful to those who did not share those opinions (especially each other) Sebastian was a massive hypocrite, Morrigan was cruel and Ignorant at times, Sten was a Qunari. Vivienne is really not unique when it comes to negative traits.

I don't completely dislike Vivienne's point of view. Pro-Circle seems wise since some did horrible things with their freedom. If anything, Vivienne can be a bit too Orlesian at times (if there is a such thing as too much of Orlais). It's annoying, but not a capital offense. She does remind me of Morrigan in that they both have ambitious goals and can be very condescending towards others. Interesting how Morrigan's station in court upsets Vivienne. I need to hear banter between those two.

By contrast, Wynne was pro-Circle too. She was less ambitious and more of a teacher.

[mikeymoonshine]

The mystery here is why you think these characters are all loved or something.  You act like they don't all have lots, and LOTS of haters.  Anders, Fenris, and Sebastian especially are some of the most unpopular characters in the series.  Because people aren't ranting about them on a subforum for a game they're no in, you think it's cause to act like everyone loved them?  What foolishness is this?

 

 

No the mystery here is where you read me saying they were universally loved seeing as I certainly didn't say it here. I won't respond to the crazy rant that was the rest of your comment. 

[Ryzaki]

Now thinking about it my least favorite characters are:

 

DA:O

 

Oghren

Loghain

Morrigan

Wynne

Zevran

 

DAA

 

Velanna

Anders (yeah I didn't like him in Awakening either)

 

DA2

 

Anders

Isabela

Tallis

 

DAI

 

Sera

Blackwall

 

I have disliked females more than males true. But not but an overwhelming amount.

[Rifneno]

No the mystery here is where you read me saying they were universally loved seeing as I certainly didn't say it here. I won't respond to the crazy rant that was the rest of your comment. 

So you thought you'd just say random words with no particular meaning. Yeah, that does sound like something you'd do. My bad.

[LobselVith8]

Oh Christ in Hell.

I don't wanna derail this , but are you REALLY gonna pin the anti-Vivienne hate on her gender?

Cuz if she was a man, I'd still hold the same opinions.

 

I have to agree, it's a rather silly excuse to use against people who don't like Vivienne. I remember Gaider trying to use this excuse to explain why women didn't like Tallis. Didn't work then, either.

[uncledolan]

Well if you make her divine she does reinstate the circles but it says the mages rise up because they are given more freedom and responsibility than ever before. Could be for her own power but the results are there

[mikeymoonshine]

So you thought you'd just say random words with no particular meaning. Yeah, that does sound like something you'd do. My bad.

 

Obviously the meaning went over your head my dear. 

[mikeymoonshine]

Actually yes, she does.

 

[Dr. Rush]

She wasn't developed enough as a character. Too much empty filler, not enough substance. Which maybe that is appropriate for the Orlesian game, but not appropriate for a Bioware game. I expect meaningful character development, something that a few characters in DAI seemed to lack, Vivienne among them. 

 

Too many "darlings" and not enough substance. 

[Rifneno]

Well if you make her divine she does reinstate the circles but it says the mages rise up because they are given more freedom and responsibility than ever before. Could be for her own power but the results are there

While true, it should be noted that she is still the most status quo of the three choices. Cassandra is still more pro-reform, and Leliana is all reform.

Plus, neither Cassandra nor Leliana ****** on the basic principles the Chantry was founded upon, so they've got that going for them.

[KaiserShep]

I dislike the crappy parts of her arguments. The "bad timing"? The mass murder by magic in Kirkwall? Everybody talks about the murder of the Kirkwall Grand Cleric, but nobody ever seems to talk about the murder of the mages by the templars for the actions of an apostate. And as for the "bad timing"? Well too f!cking bad. Because after Kirkwall, the Templars started cracking down on mages even harder than before. Exterminating the Rivain Circle? The dissolution of mage gatherings and any semblance of mage authority and sovereignty left? Did Vivienne want the mages to just bend over and take it all some more? The starting of the rebellion couldn't be helped! And I think MLK has something to say about "bad timing".

 

I really wish that the Inquisitor was able to bring up the subject of Hawke's siding with the mages, provided you went this route (which I did). I'm genuinely curious as to how the writers would form her opinion around this event.

 

Anyway, my Inquisitor would never in good conscience make this woman Divine, not after listening to everything Cassandra had to say. She had to be the one.

[Rifneno]

I really wish that the Inquisitor was able to bring up the subject of Hawke's siding with the mages, provided you went this route (which I did). I'm genuinely curious as to how the writers would form her opinion around this event.
 
Anyway, my Inquisitor would never in good conscience make this woman Divine, not after listening to everything Cassandra had to say. She had to be the one.

Can't be. As someone said earlier in the thread, there's only two types of dialogue with Vivienne: ones that kiss her ass, and ones that make you look stupid.

Well written my ass.

[WildOrchid]

Anyway, my Inquisitor would never in good conscience make this woman Divine, not after listening to everything Cassandra had to say. She had to be the one.

 

I was surprised at first since i wholeheartedly supported Cass as Divine and ended up with Viv. Tricky, that one.

 

I had no idea that this depends on your actions and not words.

[mikeymoonshine]

I supported Leliana and I got Leliana  haven't gotten Viv yet but I have only completed two playthroughs. 

[Bigdoser]

I was surprised at first since i wholeheartedly supported Cass as Divine and ended up with Viv. Tricky, that one.

 

I had no idea that this depends on your actions and not words.

Funny thing is viv even states the chantry will look to the inquisition for guidance on who to pick as the next divine since they view the inquisition as the "will" of the maker. 

[uncledolan]

While true, it should be noted that she is still the most status quo of the three choices. Cassandra is still more pro-reform, and Leliana is all reform.

Plus, neither Cassandra nor Leliana ****** on the basic principles the Chantry was founded upon, so they've got that going for them.

Lelianna is the worst choice because she frees all mages. Unless you are role playing a mage who doesn't give a **** about ending the world u can't support mage freedom.

If you look at all 3 games all events were caused by mages. The blight was caused by magisters who had freedom and enslaved an entire nation. Dragon age 2 was caused by an crazy apostate and rampant use of blood magic. Drsgonage inquisition was caused again by an ancient magister.

Not to mention fereldens circle where every Mage basically became an abomination. Also Warden mages almost ending the world by summoning a demon army.

When a regular person goes crazy he causes some destruction. When mages do they end the world. Anyone who just blindly frees them is an complete imbecile

[Bigdoser]

Lelianna is the worst choice because she frees all mages. Unless you are role playing a mage who doesn't give a **** about ending the world u can't support mage freedom.

If you look at all 3 games all events were caused by mages. The blight was caused by magisters who had freedom and enslaved an entire nation. Dragon age 2 was caused by an crazy apostate and rampant use of blood magic. Drsgonage inquisition was caused again by an ancient magister.

Not to mention fereldens circle where every Mage basically became an abomination. Also Warden mages almost ending the world by summoning a demon army.

When a regular person goes crazy he causes some destruction. When mages do they end the world. Anyone who just blindly frees them is an complete imbecile

The ending says other wise for the leliana+free mage option. 

[Rifneno]

Lelianna is the worst choice because she frees all mages. Unless you are role playing a mage who doesn't give a **** about ending the world u can't support mage freedom.

If you look at all 3 games all events were caused by mages. The blight was caused by magisters who had freedom and enslaved an entire nation. Dragon age 2 was caused by an crazy apostate and rampant use of blood magic. Drsgonage inquisition was caused again by an ancient magister.

Not to mention fereldens circle where every Mage basically became an abomination. Also Warden mages almost ending the world by summoning a demon army.

When a regular person goes crazy he causes some destruction. When mages do they end the world. Anyone who just blindly frees them is an complete imbecile

"Dear /pol/..."

[mikeymoonshine]

Lelianna is the worst choice because she frees all mages. Unless you are role playing a mage who doesn't give a **** about ending the world u can't support mage freedom.

If you look at all 3 games all events were caused by mages. The blight was caused by magisters who had freedom and enslaved an entire nation. Dragon age 2 was caused by an crazy apostate and rampant use of blood magic. Drsgonage inquisition was caused again by an ancient magister.

Not to mention fereldens circle where every Mage basically became an abomination. Also Warden mages almost ending the world by summoning a demon army.

When a regular person goes crazy he causes some destruction. When mages do they end the world. Anyone who just blindly frees them is an complete imbecile

 

I dunno Meredith certainly did a lot of damage. Loghain was at fault for what happened in Ferelden and Recliffe and these things happened despite the existence of the circle, in fact they happened because of the existence of the circle. The other Wardens were complicit in the summoning of demons, the mages could not have managed it without them. 

 

Vivienne is right that magic is dangerous but mages should at least be allowed the chance to govern and oversee themselves considering what happened in the circles. 

[Ryzaki]

Eh I like Vivienne but I will never willfully make her Divine.

 

Same goes for Leliana really.

 

Cassandra best divine for me

[WildOrchid]

At least it's not hardened Leliana... *shudders*