185 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

Reapers have superior targeting capabilities due to their more advanced AI. They have very advanced cyberwarfare suits and no Alliance ship has anything that can match it. Only EDI could and only due to her shackles being removed, being based on Reaper technology and having Reaper IFF installed. They also have the advantage of numbers when it comes to the fighters. Those little drones they send out hinder dreadnought targeting. Not to mention their shields and armor that is better than any ship in the galaxy.

[Display Name Owner]

No, practically everything the galaxy had was thrown at Earth as nothing more than cover for the Crucible. At best, You'd be left with an intact Salarian fleet afterwards if you cured the Genophage and they refused to help. From what I can remember anyway.

Furthermore, the Reaper fleet on and around Earth is only a fraction of their force, the rest are working over the rest of the Galaxy. So even if the galaxy somehow won the battle over Earth they'd have like thousands of Reapers left to deal with, plus by the time Priority: Earth rolls around, the Reapers hold pretty much the entirety of the galaxy. So in the very unlikely event of a victory at Earth, the galaxy would have no means of supporting the fleets afterwards.

[Iakus]

No, practically everything the galaxy had was thrown at Earth as nothing more than cover for the Crucible. At best, You'd be left with an intact Salarian fleet afterwards if you cured the Genophage and they refused to help. From what I can remember anyway.

Furthermore, the Reaper fleet on and around Earth is only a fraction of their force, the rest are working over the rest of the Galaxy. So even if the galaxy somehow won the battle over Earth they'd have like thousands of Reapers left to deal with, plus by the time Priority: Earth rolls around, the Reapers hold pretty much the entirety of the galaxy. So in the very unlikely event of a victory at Earth, the galaxy would have no means of supporting the fleets afterwards.

 

Confirmed:  No matter how much of a difference you make, it doesn't make any difference.

[themikefest]

The one thing I would like to know is what happens to Shepard after she refuses. Does a shuttle pick her up and bring her back to the Normandy? Does she just stand there like the dumba** she is until she dies? Maybe she just sits down and twiddle her thumbs. Or she realizes that she messed up and shoots herself. 

[Vazgen]

I'd like for Catalyst to say this instead of "So be it"

[Iakus]

I'd like for Catalyst to say this instead of "So be it"

 

He'd only be repeating what I told the Catalyst earlier.

 

Me, not Shepard, unfortunately.

[Valmar]

Alright...here are the facts.

 

Oh goodie. Facts. Note however that while a statement may be factually true the way it is presented can still be misleading. Lets look at both the facts... AND the context of the facts.

 

Numbered for reply simplicity.

 

 

 

1. -10,000 Quarian ships in total (the Quarians have broken the Treaty of Farixen;every Live Ship is equipped with firepower comparable to a standard dreadnought),

2. -The entire Geth Armada (Geth Dreadnoughts are both powerful and larger than any other dreadnought)

3. - Alliance fleets

4. - Asari Fleets (including the upgraded and improved Destiny Ascension)

5. - Salarian fleets (with stealth Dreadnoughts)

6. - Turian fleets

7. - Countless other mercenary ships

8. All using Thannix Cannons (fighters included) which can take out a cruiser in about 2-3 shots.

 

1. 10,000 quarian ships which are effectively relics that the brilliant engineers (quarians) manage to preserve. Their ships are under constant threat of dying on them and many of these ships are junkscraps they managed to piece back together. The ones that weren't essentially recycled junk are centuries old. Shepard can even belittle their great armada by calling them toy ships. They have the numbers, yes. They lack quality.

 

So yes, there is a lot of ships. A lot of ancient, dying, jury-rigged ships that by all by all rights should had been decommissioned in some cases centuries ago due to the hazards they present to the people living on them. Unfortunately the quarians have no choice in the matter, they have to make due.

 

Yes, they did strap some weapons on their live ships. A woefully ignorant move, imo, as they've made the most vital ships in their navy prime targets. Losing even one of them could bring doom to their entire species. Oh, btw, "every live ship" comes up to an astonishing three live ships. The day is saved.

 

For extra context also take into account the fact that the liveships are not built for warfare. They are agricultural vessels. We're given no reason to think they have the armor density and projection of traditional dradnoughts. They very well might just be glass canons at this point.

 

Also consider the same is true for all the other ships. Practically every vessel in the quarian fleet has been retrofitted to act as housing. Their primary purpose, as a whole, is housing the quarian species. Not war.

 

 

 

2. Potentially, yes. This assumes of course that you saved the geth or made peace. However lets view a bit of context.

 

"Many geth vessels are built to explore, mine, or provide transport between factories and space stations. But every geth ship, regardless of purpose, is also capable of engaging hostile forces. Unbound by the Treaty of Farixen, the synthetic intelligences built almost as many dreadnoughts as the Turians."

 

Similar to the quarian issue (though not nearly as handicapped, assuredly) the geth have numbers but not necessarily the same level of quality when it comes to these big numbers. Many of their ships are not purposely designed for conflict. Capable of it, yes, but that is not their purpose. Also they have ALMOST as many dreadnoughts as the turians. How many do the turians have? 39. Oh, but their dreanaughts are larger than organics... but how exactly does it compare to the reapers technology?

 

"On the Presidium, during the Council meeting when Shepard asks them to investigate Sovereign's superior technology as proof of the Reapers' existence, the Salarian Councilor will state there is no proof that Sovereign was not of geth origin. Legion will retort that the geth do not have that kind of technology."

 

The Geth apparently didn't even have a equivalent to the Thanix cannon.

 

"After Commander Shepard's interview with Diana Allers assuring her viewers that the geth can be trusted, Alliance officials grudgingly sent over Thanix cannons for the geth fleet."

 

Regardless of their power, however, they still pale compared to the reaper ships.

 

Reaper Capital Ship: "Their main weapon is a spinal mounted "magnetohydrodynamic" cannon with a yield of 132 to 450 kilotons of TNT, which dwarfs the main gun of an Everest-class Alliance dreadnought. No known ship, not even a dreadnought, has been known to survive a hit from this weapon. They are extremely durable, capable of taking the continuous and simultaneous fire of four dreadnoughts before they start to lose their kinetic barriers."

 

 

 

3. The Alliance have a formidable military, no doubt. It still pales compared to the reapers, however.

 

"The First Fleet is the largest in the Alliance Navy. By the time Admiral Hackett ordered a retreat, the fleet had been cut in half. Commanding Admiral Ines Lindholm made the painful decision to use a tenth of the fleet's remaining vessels as cover so the remainder could escape. Her gamble paid off, as the First Fleet limped out of the relay to rally with the rest of the Alliance forces on the run."

 

"Unfortunately, the Reapers proved too powerful, forcing Hackett to sacrifice the Second Fleet to allow the Third and Fifth to escape."

 

"the Third Fleet is headed by Admiral Nitesh Singh. When the Reapers came for the station in 2186, Singh had already pulled his command ship, the SSV Logan, back to an ideal firing position for its mass accelerator cannons. The dreadnought's guns managed to slow down a destroyer before it could demolish the Third Fleet, but Singh was forced to retreat in the face of overwhelming opposition from the Reapers."

 

"The Fourth Fleet was stationed near Earth at the time of the Reaper invasion in 2186. It was given a few minutes of advance warning after the Reapers emerged from the Charon Relay and engaged with the First Fleet, but was destroyed nonetheless."

 

"The Eighth Fleet was unable to stop the Reaper advance in 2186 and attempted to regroup at a secret Alliance station orbiting Ontarom, but was ambushed by Reaper forces."

 

The bulk of the alliance fleet seem to have been destroyed by the reapers already with most of the surviving fleets being ones the reapers simply ignored.

 

 

 

4. The Destiny Ascension is only an asset if you saved the council. Granted its been upgraded in ME3 but think about this for a moment... this ship is said to have as much firepower as the entire Asari fleet combined. Yet it can get torn to shreds by the geth swarming it in the first game. That doesn't exactly paint the asari fleet in the best of lights, imo.

 

As for the Asari, in general...

 

"During the Reaper invasion in 2186 CE, the asari refrained from supporting the other races in the war as they were reluctant to take resources away from the defense of their own worlds. Despite this caution, the Reapers tore through the asari defenses and deployed forces throughout asari space. Asari hit-and-run tactics managed to slow the Reaper advance, but not stall it."

 

They had MONTHS to prepare their defenses. MONTHS! The reapers still strolled without a problem. Trololol.

 

 

 

5. The Salarians I would argue definitely have some, if not THE highest quality ships in council space. However they face the reverse problem races like the quarians have... where as quarians have quantity without quality the salarians are severely lacking in quantity. They have 17(!) dreadnaughts. This is an insanely low number. Yes, they're very advanced dreadnaughts but as we already know a single reaper can withstand the force of four dreadnaughts at once. I doubt the salarain's dreadnaughts are THAT much more superior than everyone elses.

 

The stealth will definitely aid them but its not something to rely on for winning the war. Even they say as much:

 

"The salarians expect the Reapers to break through the dreadnought's electronic countermeasures eventually, but until then, they have a crucial advantage against their monstrous enemies."

 

As for their overall 'ranking' in the galactic military... I believe this describes their position best:

 

"While capable of defending themselves against most threats, the salarians know that they are small fish in a universe filled with sharks. As a point of survival, they have cultivated strong alliances with larger powers, particularly with the turians."

 

 

 

6. Now we're talking business, the turians are THE military force as far as organics go. They've held out the best against the reapers, I believe. The fact that the reapers actually had to resort to orbital bombardment should be pretty telling. They're a huge asset to the war effort and their contribution shouldn't be understated. At the same time however we have to remember that this is the reapers we're talking about. They're vastly more powerful. The fact that turians have managed to endure as much as they have is a testament to the turians military strength, not weakness of the reapers. It's still a losing battle for the turians. Even the primarch realizes that. "Overwhelming force."

 

 

 

7. They'll make a nice diversion. I wouldn't get your hopes up on them taking out capital ships, though.

 

 

8. An exaggerated statement, they don't ALL have that upgrade. Also I'll remind you that this powerful weapon you're touting as a trump card is actually a scaled down version of what they were able to salvage from Sovereign. A reaper. I'm all for using the enemies tech against them but lets not pretend that that gives us the advantage. It helps, though, definitely.

 

Also while our variants can take out cruisers with a few shots the reapers can take out dreadnaughts with a single hit.

 

Every cruiser (under the right circumstances) can take on a single destroyer himself.

 

Indeed. It's just unfortunate for us that the reaper fleet isn't comprised entirely of cruisers and has within it ships capable of destroying any of our DREADNAUGHTS with one hit.

 

 

 

 

There's also another thing,which is apparently canon.

Interferometric Array (Crucible War Asset)

 

Description: "Normally,interferometric arrays are used to analyze planetary landmasses, or to determine the astrophysical properties of a stellar system. The powerful array salvaged from the Hercules System can be used for something much more ambitious: The Crucible tunes into the mass relay's command switches.

Installing the interferometric array into the Crucible's systems results in a real-time map of the entire Galaxy,including the position of each and every Reaper in the Milky Way."

source

 

Combine all of that with a little bit of proper military strategy and you've got yourself a victory.

 

First off, unrelated to the subject, but this is just another great example of how they FORCE the sacrifice of all synthetic life on the player just for the feels. There is zero reason, whatsoever, the crucible should have to target ALL synthetics. It is built purposely and specifically to defeat the reapers. The geth can even help in the building process. Plus you have this thing that detect the reaper signal specifically built into it.. and yet despite all this the geth and EDI /must/ die. Ridiculous.

 

Second, while this would be very valuable to the war effort you're not really viewing it in context to the situation. Its only useful to us if we can actually maintain it and protect it. We don't even known how to move the citadel if we wanted to. We'd have to maintain defense on it indefinitely while its in the middle of a warzone that we're losing. Even if we were to undock and run with it the reapers have the citadel now, any hope we had of victory was well and truly squashed the moment they took it over.

 

The citadel is the control center of the relay network. With it the reapers have full control of the mass relays. It is how they usually harvest, as told to us in the first game. They isolate people and attack system-by-system. The crucible would rely on the relay network to know the positions, something it wouldn't have access to.

 

Even if they DID know their exact positions though it isn't likely to have enough effect to win the war. We had time to prepare for the reapers before and they still walked all over us. The damn Asari had months of preparation and they still got stomped like bugs. The turians were the only ones who weren't completely overwhelmed immediately. The reapers are just too numerous and far too advanced. Either Shepard uses the crucible or we all die. Honestly the fact that refusal even exists as an option baffles me. Granted I'd rather have it then not have it because Im all for giving the player more choice. Still, its pretty ridiculous imo.

[Vazgen]

Nice writeup Valmar

I'll add two points

1) Quarian liveships were quite endangered by geth fighters. They are indeed glass cannons.

2) The death of geth and EDI is quite expected. The geth have Reaper code, EDI is based on Reaper technology. It makes perfect sense for the device to target them alongside Reapers (especially EDI who also has Reaper IFF installed). It's the notion of the destruction of all synthetic life regardless of Reaper tech basis that is forced. But consider that 1) the Catalyst says that "the technology you rely on will be affected but the survivors will have little difficulty repairing the damage" and 2) EDI says that "other AIs are experiments only. Tightly controlled." 

"All synthetic life" at that point in ME universe pretty much means geth, EDI and maybe those experimental AIs (not sure if one can consider them alive).

[dreamgazer]

No.

In the original game it took a fleet of ships to take down one Reaper.

Even with a massive EMS you're still getting an ass-whooping in a refusal ending.

Ding, ding.

[dreamgazer]

You'd be suprised how many people think that's still conventional warfare.
 
Unconventional=Miraculous Superweapon MacGuffin 

If it requires conventional tactics and stratagems that the millions-year-old space Cthulhu could respond to and could have been impacted by in countless previous cycles, then yes, it's conventional.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

If it requires conventional tactics and stratagems that the millions-year-old space Cthulhu could respond to and could have been impacted by in countless previous cycles, then yes, it's conventional.

 

For me, I use the term "conventional victory" to refer to any scenario where the Reapers are beaten with conventional space-weaponry, unaided by some other device that significantly tilts the balance-of-power. I also just love it when people respond by saying unconventional tactics = unconventional victory, -OR- when they simultaneously complain about the Crucible as a insta-win button/D.E.M. and then propose their own solution when some single weapon (mass-produced Thanix Cannons being a popular one) is the key to victory.

[Valmar]

Nice writeup Valmar

I'll add two points

1) Quarian liveships were quite endangered by geth fighters. They are indeed glass cannons.

2) The death of geth and EDI is quite expected. The geth have Reaper code, EDI is based on Reaper technology. It makes perfect sense for the device to target them alongside Reapers (especially EDI who also has Reaper IFF installed). It's the notion of the destruction of all synthetic life regardless of Reaper tech basis that is forced. But consider that 1) the Catalyst says that "the technology you rely on will be affected but the survivors will have little difficulty repairing the damage" and 2) EDI says that "other AIs are experiments only. Tightly controlled." 

"All synthetic life" at that point in ME universe pretty much means geth, EDI and maybe those experimental AIs (not sure if one can consider them alive).

 

Thank you, Vazgen.

 

 

I hear this argument from time to time. I get where you're coming from but I'm far too emotional about this to view it so objectively. While I can see the angle where they can work the sacrifice into the story (Reaper IFF, Reaper Code) I still cant help but feel its too flimsy. They could had easily, imo, wrote around these things. EDI was only BASED off of reaper code - that gives leeway. In that same vein one could speculate that Shepard is based off reaper tech (husks, specifically) yet he clearly lives. The starbrat heavily implied that Shepard would die yet it was wrong. It could be lying about the geth and EDI as well.

 

The reaper IFF isn't necessarily labeling EDI as a reaper... its labeling the Normandy. Though rather or not that would effect her I cannot say. I get that EDI basically IS the Normandy but its really just her body. Her mind is still in the blue box. Given that she knew what was coming though you'd think she would just turn the damn thing off or something.  Resolving this wouldn't be different, imo.

 

Looking even deeper we don't even know if the reaper IFF has anything to do with the crucible's targeting system. If it was really that simple you'd think the reapers would had just turned off their IFF's the moment the crucible showed up.

 

The geth are easier to work around... just turn off the upgrades. They clearly can do it, since they lost the upgrades during the story arc. The geth were just fine without the reaper upgrades. No need for the thing to outright kill them. Why can't it just wipe out the reaper bits in their code like Shepard does in the geth consensus.

 

If I step back and TRY to be objective (blah lol) I can see how the sacrifice works with the story. I just cant help but see ways that them NOT dying would work just as well. I don't even care that the geth are wiped out I just hate that its a mandatory sacrifice placed on the Destroy ending. I don't feel its a justified mandate. It could work well either way but instead we're stuck with it being  a death sentence to all synthetic life.

 

All that being said I will agree that the bases of it targeting ALL synthetic is definitely more forced than EDI and Geth. Those poor virtual aliens...

 

 

I also just love it when people respond by saying unconventional tactics = unconventional victory, -OR- when they simultaneously complain about the Crucible as a insta-win button/D.E.M. and then propose their own solution when some single weapon (mass-produced Thanix Cannons being a popular one) is the key to victory.

 

There is a certain irony in that isn't it? Arguments about the ending in particular are rife with this kind of hypocrisy. Though the Thanix Cannon approach wouldn't be as bad as the crucible. At least with the thanix cannon approach we don't magically win instantly by shooting a tube, grabbing rods or leaping into a beam of light.

 

Though personally I wouldn't mind the crucible if it wasn't so absolute and final. If it just targeted the shields and left the reapers vulnerable (like Sovereign in the first game) I would've been happy with it. Isn't an instant win but definitely gives us an advantage. Instead its literally a reaper-off device. Anti-climatic.

[Iakus]

If it requires conventional tactics and stratagems that the millions-year-old space Cthulhu could respond to and could have been impacted by in countless previous cycles, then yes, it's conventional.

You mean like the Crucible? 

[Iakus]

For me, I use the term "conventional victory" to refer to any scenario where the Reapers are beaten with conventional space-weaponry, unaided by some other device that significantly tilts the balance-of-power. 

Like firing a photon torpedo into a two meter wide exhaust port? 

 

One big problem people have with the Crucible (aside from the really bad implications each "chocie" offers is that even if you see it as a victory, it's an unearned one.  The cycles that came before did all the heavy lifting.  They designed it.  They figured out the math behind it.  They found the Catalyst.  Thy passed it on.  We're just the monkeys following the instructions they left behind.

[von uber]

The reapers are too powerful for me3 to last longer than 5 minutes.
Therefore the gane has to show them as being beatable before going ha!ha! Not really!

Reapers turn up. Stomp through the batarians, head straight for the citadel.
Either starve it out or control it using the catalyst which controls the reapers in any event.
Take control of the network, done.

By allowing the reapers to be fightable it leads to the problems of people arguing for the potential for a conventional victory without space magic.

[dreamgazer]

You mean like the Crucible? 

 

No, I don't mean like the Crucible.

[Valmar]

One big problem people have with the Crucible (aside from the really bad implications each "chocie" offers is that even if you see it as a victory, it's an unearned one.  The cycles that came before did all the heavy lifting.  They designed it.  They figured out the math behind it.  They found the Catalyst.  Thy passed it on.  We're just the monkeys following the instructions they left behind.

 

I get what you're saying but this same argument can be applied to the entire premise of the Mass Effect series. Our cycle recycling tech and knowledge left behind from previous cycles is a staple of the series. We've been playing along by the reaper's plans since the start. Same overall principle just a different teacher.

[dreamgazer]

Like firing a photon torpedo into a two meter wide exhaust port? 

 

Wasn't aware that the Death Star was a million-year-old, self-aware structure. Let alone one of, at the very least, several thousand of its kind. 

 

That's a lot of exhaust ports. 

[Valmar]

Wasn't aware that the Death Star was a million-year-old, self-aware structure. Let alone one of, at the very least, several thousand of its kind. 

 

That's a lot of exhaust ports. 

 

More like billion+ years. Lol.

[Iakus]

No, I don't mean like the Crucible.

Funny, because the  Reapers were fully aware of the Crucible in previous cycles, dealt with it, and (falsly) believed they destroyed all the copies of the plans for it.

 

by your definition, that makes the Crucible "conventional"

[Vazgen]

Thank you, Vazgen.

 

 

I hear this argument from time to time. I get where you're coming from but I'm far too emotional about this to view it so objectively. While I can see the angle where they can work the sacrifice into the story (Reaper IFF, Reaper Code) I still cant help but feel its too flimsy. They could had easily, imo, wrote around these things. EDI was only BASED off of reaper code - that gives leeway. In that same vein one could speculate that Shepard is based off reaper tech (husks, specifically) yet he clearly lives. The starbrat heavily implied that Shepard would die yet it was wrong. It could be lying about the geth and EDI as well.

 

The reaper IFF isn't necessarily labeling EDI as a reaper... its labeling the Normandy. Though rather or not that would effect her I cannot say. I get that EDI basically IS the Normandy but its really just her body. Her mind is still in the blue box. Given that she knew what was coming though you'd think she would just turn the damn thing off or something.  Resolving this wouldn't be different, imo.

 

Looking even deeper we don't even know if the reaper IFF has anything to do with the crucible's targeting system. If it was really that simple you'd think the reapers would had just turned off their IFF's the moment the crucible showed up.

 

The geth are easier to work around... just turn off the upgrades. They clearly can do it, since they lost the upgrades during the story arc. The geth were just fine without the reaper upgrades. No need for the thing to outright kill them. Why can't it just wipe out the reaper bits in their code like Shepard does in the geth consensus.

 

If I step back and TRY to be objective (blah lol) I can see how the sacrifice works with the story. I just cant help but see ways that them NOT dying would work just as well. I don't even care that the geth are wiped out I just hate that its a mandatory sacrifice placed on the Destroy ending. I don't feel its a justified mandate. It could work well either way but instead we're stuck with it being  a death sentence to all synthetic life.

 

All that being said I will agree that the bases of it targeting ALL synthetic is definitely more forced than EDI and Geth. Those poor virtual aliens...

I'd argue against husk technology being used for Shepard's resurrection. Horizon showed that Reaper nanites respond to Reaper signal and only near the end of ME3 did Cerberus figure out how to subvert that signal. I don't think Cerberus would've used that technology to rebuild someone with a task to fight Reapers.

About starbrat's words, you said it yourself. It implies that Shepard may die, it doesn't say it outright and as a result doesn't lie. In fact, I'd say that Shepard's survival is another point against husk technology being used for Shepard's revival.

It would've been easy to work around sacrifices, true. What I said is that the current situation is also understandable and logical. It's not forced like Legion's sacrifice, for example. At least in my PoV

[Iakus]

I get what you're saying but this same argument can be applied to the entire premise of the Mass Effect series. Our cycle recycling tech and knowledge left behind from previous cycles is a staple of the series. We've been playing along by the reaper's plans since the start. Same overall principle just a different teacher.

It is, and it was the weakness of the cycle.  It was, in fact, the Reapers' trap "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire."

 

Rather than breaking free of that flaw, the Crucible merely emphasized it.  the only difference is now we're dependant on someone else's technology.  But we're still not growing along our own paths.

[Iakus]

Wasn't aware that the Death Star was a million-year-old, self-aware structure. Let alone one of, at the very least, several thousand of its kind. 

 

That's a lot of exhaust ports. 

but the Death Star was an "unbeatable" superweapon done in by "conventional" weaponry used in an unconventional manner

[themikefest]

Doesn't matter how large a fleet a species has, it all has to do with how the leadership uses it. Hackett is a good example of what not to do. Never put your ships or soldiers in harms way if you don't have to. Why have ships firing on Sovereign when they all could fire on it from behind. The thing had itself hooked to the tower and for it to do any damage it had to unhook itself. So Hackett would be the last character I would want to lead any kind of attack. The same can siad for Shepard. I couldn't help laughing when he/she is the one leading the fleets to Earth. Again its the cool crap effect.

 

I would have the Turian Fleet Commander, Irix Coronati, lead all fleets because of what he did during the Battle of Palaven

When Taetrus fell, the turians knew little about the Reapers except that they wanted to enrage the turians. Staying calm, the turians massed in force around Palaven, their homeworld. Fleet Admiral Irix Coronati, in what became known as the "Fifteen-Minute Plan," stationed only two carriers, Undaunted and Resolute, near the system's relay. When the Reaper fleet emerged, the carriers launched swarms of unmanned fighters and spy drones. These were quickly destroyed, but the drones transmitted vital data on the Reapers' effective range, fleet composition, and exact location. The turians' other ships then deployed to defend the system in earnest.

Knowing that the Reapers' weapons had a longer effective range than any of his own, Coronati made a short, daring FTL jump--landing his dreadnoughts in the middle of the Reaper fleet. The dreadnoughts then turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers, which also needed to turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the Reapers' size against them--because they could turn faster, the turian dreadnoughts locked targets first, and their concentrated firepower downed several Reaper capital ships.

 

The Reapers countered instantly. Their destroyers performed a jump of their own to the skies above Palaven, beginning orbital strikes on turian cities. The turians, forced to defend the planet, found themselves in a pitched battle far from the relay, from which emerged a seemingly endless line of Reaper ships. After massive casualties, Coronati ordered retreat.

 

The turians insist that Palaven is not lost--the battle has merely moved to the ground. Reaper troop transports have dumped hordes of husks to capture Palaven's inhabitants, but met with little success. Reaper capital ships are destroying city after city. But much of the turian fleet is still operable, and the citizenry is heavily armed. The turians refuse to be intimidated.

 

Another thing is when scanning the planet Illium, it mentions the people decided against firing on the reaper capital ships, but chose to fire on the troop carrier ships and processing ships causing the reapers to delay their invasion of the planet until they could get some replacements. That doesn't seem like much, but if every planet were able to that, the reapers would be in spot they may of never been in before and be at a lost of what to do about getting reaper made ground forces.

 

The biggest thing for me is how many reaper ships are there. How long has the 50 000 year cycle been happening? Leviathan said the intelligence had the reapers build the relay network for greater efficiency. How much time passed between the first reaper, Harbinger, to when the relay network was up and running.

 

If they have as many as some have posted, it wouldn't matter how large a fleet the organics have. If they have 20 000 capital ships, all they need to do is have a couple hundred near the Citadel preventing organic ships from coming and going, a 100 ships at each relay preventing ships from leaving the system and the rest  having fun harvesting.

[dreamgazer]

Funny, because the  Reapers were fully aware of the Crucible in previous cycles, dealt with it, and (falsly) believed they destroyed all the copies of the plans for it.

 

by your definition, that makes the Crucible "conventional"

 

Except for the fact that it either works or it doesn't, which the game explicitly tells you why it hasn't worked until that point.  And it doesn't require conventional strategic applications on the field of battle for it to be effective, to which all other tools have been at the galaxy's fingertips for millions upon millions of years.

 

So, no, not like the Crucible.

 

but the Death Star was an "unbeatable" superweapon done in by "conventional" weaponry used in an unconventional manner

 

Apples and oranges.  You're stretching, and I suspect you know it.