185 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

 

Except for the fact that it either works or it doesn't, which the game explicitly tells you why it hasn't worked until that point.  And it doesn't require conventional strategic applications on the field of battle for it to be effective, to which all other tools have been at the galaxy's fingertips for millions upon millions of years.

 

So, no, not like the Crucible.

 

 

Apples and oranges.  You're stretching, and I suspect you know it. 

What does it working have to do with anything?  You said it's conventional if the Reapers have dealt with or have potentially dealt with it before.

 

They dealt with the Crucible.  Just like they deal with dreadnought fire.  They stop it before it hits them.

 

And no, not apples and oranges.  Unconventional means many things and I suspect you know it. 

[Valmar]

I'd argue against husk technology being used for Shepard's resurrection. Horizon showed that Reaper nanites respond to Reaper signal and only near the end of ME3 did Cerberus figure out how to subvert that signal. I don't think Cerberus would've used that technology to rebuild someone with a task to fight Reapers.

About starbrat's words, you said it yourself. It implies that Shepard may die, it doesn't say it outright and as a result doesn't lie. In fact, I'd say that Shepard's survival is another point against husk technology being used for Shepard's revival.

It would've been easy to work around sacrifices, true. What I said is that the current situation is also understandable and logical. It's not forced like Legion's sacrifice, for example. At least in my PoV

 

I never said husk tech was used for Shepard's resurrection. I suggested that it was BASED off the technology. Easy to imagine they'd use some of that knowledge they gained studying husks and such. That doesn't mean I think he went and injected reaper nanites in Shepard or anything.

 

Yeah, it only implies Shepard's demise. I'm usually pretty careful to mention "implies" instead of claiming he just "says" it because of that. Though, imo, the starbrats intention is clear. We all know what it means by it. I won't let him get away with lying on a technicality. Lol.

 

In truth was referring more to "all synthetic life" bit being forced but I did use that as a bridge to vent my frustration about the geth and EDI. You're not wrong. I'm just bitter about it, is all. I can't always be perfect. I give the ending a lot more respect then most people do without getting overly emotional about it - let me have this emotional complaint. I don't like that EDI and the Geth HAVE to die. More on principle then anything else, I suppose, since personally I don't care much one way or another. I just don't like that they limit it to only one way when it would had been so easy to write around it.

[Han Shot First]

The other thing with having a conventional victory if it were in the game. It would take a long time. Though Bioware could just show a couple reapers being destroyed and call it a day which for me would be lame. They wanted the story to end in 3 games and not in 4 or 5.

 

I agree. Also it would give Shepard very little to do.

 

If the Reapers were annihilated in naval combat rather than by a superweapon, Shepard becomes a spectator to a victory won by Admiral Hackett. So even if the Council races evened the technological playing field in the story, the devs would likely still need to rely on a superweapon to achieve the final victory. Otherwise the victory gets taken out of the protagonist's hands.

 

Also there is nothing inherently bad about using a superweapon in the plot. The Crucible could probably have been written better, but the idea to use a superweapon to bring the Reaper War to a close was fine.

[Vazgen]

conventional - based on or in accordance with what is generally done or believed.

 

Crucible = not conventional

Miracle at Palaven = not conventional

 

Consider that Miracle at Palaven only bought the turians some time. Such tactics can only take you so far. You can't do a sizeable amount of damage (on a galactic scale) to the Reapers using such tactics, because the Reapers are overpowered. Reapers have to be defeated in one single blow. Long term plans don't work due to indoctrination spoiling them. 

[dreamgazer]

What does it working have to do with anything?

Plenty.  

You said it's conventional if the Reapers have dealt with or have potentially dealt with it before.

You're overlooking: "If it requires conventional tactics and stratagems..."
 

They dealt with the Crucible.  Just like they deal with dreadnought fire.  They stop it before it hits them.

Not if it's instantaneous, which the Crucible is. They've never endured its effects head-on, only attempted to remove the plans.
 

And no, not apples and oranges.  Unconventional means many things and I suspect you know it.

Yes, apples and oranges. One exhaust port on a space station =/= thousands of self-aware Reapers with millions of years of battle experience.

And I never said that unconventional didn't mean many things, many of which have even more problematic logic in their application than the Crucible.

[Iakus]

I agree. Also it would give Shepard very little to do.

 

If the Reapers were annihilated in naval combat rather than by a superweapon, Shepard becomes a spectator to a victory won by Admiral Hackett. So even if the Council races evened the technological playing field in the story, the devs would likely still need to rely on a superweapon to achieve the final victory. Otherwise the victory gets taken out of the protagonist's hands.

 

Also there is nothing inherently bad about using a superweapon in the plot. The Crucible could probably have been written better, but the idea to use a superweapon to bring the Reaper War to a close was fine.

Sadly, the time wasted in ME2 essentially required a superweapon of some sort in the third act.

 

Still, it could have been a weapon that leveled the playing field in a fight rather than rewrite the galaxy in such a way that the Reapers were no longer a threat.  That way the War Assets could still have had some sort of point to gathering.

[Iakus]

You're overlooking: "If it requires conventional tactics and stratagems..."
 

 And yet having a fleet use "unusual tactics or stratagems" like the turians used was still conventional...

 

 

Not if it's instantaneous, which the Crucible is. They've never endured its effects head-on, only attempted to remove the plans.

 

They never endured dradnought fire head-on either.  They use kinetic barriers to stop it.

 

 

Yes, apples and oranges. One exhaust port on a space station =/= thousands of self-aware Reapers with millions of years of battle experience.

And I never said that unconventional didn't mean many things, many of which have even more problematic logic in their application than the Crucible.

 

 

Same principle. Unstoppable force dealt with unconventionally.  Bioware could have used whatever they liked to give the Reapers a weakness.  One that actually fit the lore of the setting they created.  And given SHepard and the galaxy the means to take advantage of that weakness.  Rather than letting previous cycles do all the heavy lifting, and the current crop of monkeys flip the switch (with a little help from the very enemies they were fighting)

 

Luke simply used minimal space magic.

[dreamgazer]

And yet having a fleet use "unusual tactics or stratagems" like the turians used was still conventional...

Do you realize, even using conservative numbers for the Reapers, what percentage were actually taken out during the Reaper war?
 

They never endured dradnought fire head-on either.  They use kinetic barriers to stop it.

Gonna have to give me a source for the bolded. You're accounting for nearly a billion years here.
 

Same principle. Unstoppable force dealt with unconventionally.

Not the same principle. Thousands of self-aware, million-year-old space Cthulhu aren't the same thing as one organic-made space station with a sensitive sphincter.
 

Bioware could have used whatever they liked to give the Reapers a weakness.

Not really, since they're working with millions of years where the Reapers have been successful.  Why didn't any of the other equally-advanced, if not more advanced, civilizations discover said weakness?
 

One that actually fit the lore of the setting they created.

Using the technology of the previous doomed cycle (or what they assume is from the previous doomed cycle) for our benefit is perfectly fitting for the setting they created.  Anderson even mentions plans for a Prothean super-weapon in ME1.
 

Rather than letting previous cycles do all the heavy lifting, and the current crop of monkeys flip the switch (with a little help from the very enemies they were fighting)

Same logic applies to ME1, oddly enough. We'd be entirely screwed without the Protheans.
 

Luke simply used minimal space magic.

And he succeeded ... against one recently-built target.

[Vazgen]

...one organic-made space station with a sensitive sphincter.

 

This just made my day

[Iakus]

Do you realize, even using conservative numbers for the Reapers, what percentage were actually taken out during the Reaper war?
 

Gonna have to give me a source for the bolded. You're accounting for nearly a billion years here.
 

Not the same principle. Thousands of self-aware, million-year-old space Cthulhu aren't the same thing as one organic-made space station with a sensitive sphincter.
 

Not really, since they're working with millions of years where the Reapers have been successful.  Why didn't any of the other equally-advanced, if not more advanced, civilizations discover said weakness?
 

Using the technology of the previous doomed cycle (or what they assume is from the previous doomed cycle) for our benefit is perfectly fitting for the setting they created.  Anderson even mentions plans for a Prothean super-weapon in ME1.
 

Same logic applies to ME1, oddly enough. We'd be entirely screwed without the Protheans.
 

And he succeeded ... against one recently-built target.

 

Yup.  Miniscule, given the galaxy was facing something on the order of 20,000 Sovereign-class Reapers and an unknown, but possibly upwards of 100,000 destroyers.  But if we were operating on reasonable logic, we should have gotten a "critical mission failure" as soon as the reapers hit Earth, so there you go.

 

How about the codex describing how it takes the massed fire of four dreadnoughts to bring down the barriers of a Reaper?  Without them, a single frigate can take one out.

 

You seem to be under the apprehension that the secret to stopping the Reapers is to given them a sticky grenade enema.  The point is "find weakness, exploit weakness"  Bioware's failure was in not giving the Reapers a weakness to exploit.  So we had to fall back on space magic, designed and built by other people and we're in too much of a rush to figure out how any of it works.

 

Gee, sounds like you have the basis for a story there  "Find the weakness to the seemingly unstoppable enemy."

 

And no, using the technology of previous cycles isn't appropriate because it's the same technology

 

"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."

 

The Reapers are the masters of this technology.  And clearly keep the best toys for themselves.  To break the trap we have to find a way to think for ourselves.

 

And yes, it's thanks to the Protheans that this cycle had advance warning of what was to come, and were able to buy some time.  Too bad absolutely nothing was done with it.

 

Luke succeeded in destroying a battle station capable of one-shotting a planet while being chased by a Dark Lord of the Sith  by using a snubfighter and a Force-trick .  Unconventional methods

[themikefest]

I agree. Also it would give Shepard very little to do.

 

If the Reapers were annihilated in naval combat rather than by a superweapon, Shepard becomes a spectator to a victory won by Admiral Hackett. So even if the Council races evened the technological playing field in the story, the devs would likely still need to rely on a superweapon to achieve the final victory. Otherwise the victory gets taken out of the protagonist's hands.

 

Also there is nothing inherently bad about using a superweapon in the plot. The Crucible could probably have been written better, but the idea to use a superweapon to bring the Reaper War to a close was fine.

It would be a united victory by all species. I would not have Hackett involved in any attacks against the reaper considering how pathetic of a job he did against Sovereign. I would put the Turian leader in charge. Look at my post on the previous page of who I'm talking about.

 

Shepard doesn't have to be a spectator. While the fleets are fighting the reapers, there is still the reaper ground forces to be dealt with until the last of the reapers are destroyed. Shepard could be put on missions that involved finding any reapers that are underground like the one on Rannoch.

 

Another one, and this may be far-fetched, is have Shepard help some engineers, scientists to figure out how to fix the signal to control the relay's to use to trap reapers in a system for the organic fleets to destroy them without having to worry about any reinforcements sneaking up behind them.

 

Another is leading a force against Harbinger. I'm sure once the reapers start getting a lot of casualties, Harbinger will try to get away and head back to darkspace.

 

If a superweapon is needed, just have the thing weaken the shields of the reapers

[dreamgazer]

Yup.  Miniscule, given the galaxy was facing something on the order of 20,000 Sovereign-class Reapers and an unknown, but possibly upwards of 100,000 destroyers.  But if we were operating on reasonable logic, we should have gotten a "critical mission failure" as soon as the reapers hit Earth, so there you go.

I don't understand. Your answer to dodgy (but still tolerable) logic is even more dodgy logic that makes all previous civilizations looks like the monkeys?
 

How about the codex describing how it takes the massed fire of four dreadnoughts to bring down the barriers of a Reaper?  Without them, a single frigate can take one out.

Exploiting kinetic barriers, a commonplace technology, is something that any previous civilization could have done. Why haven't they, and why wouldn't every single Reaper react to their shields being taken down?
 

You seem to be under the apprehension that the secret to stopping the Reapers is to given them a sticky grenade enema.  The point is "find weakness, exploit weakness"  Bioware's failure was in not giving the Reapers a weakness to exploit.  So we had to fall back on space magic, designed and built by other people and we're in too much of a rush to figure out how any of it works.

We were in a rush, but not to figure out the nuance of how its destructive capabilities operated.
 

Gee, sounds like you have the basis for a story there  "Find the weakness to the seemingly unstoppable enemy."

Millions (nearly billions) year old enemy who have endured countless cycles of advanced civilizations. Bit different than finding the soft spot on some new bully on the playground.
 

And no, using the technology of previous cycles isn't appropriate because it's the same technology
 
"Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."
 
The Reapers are the masters of this technology.  And clearly keep the best toys for themselves.  To break the trap we have to find a way to think for ourselves.

Or use their technology against them, with some blind help. That's precisely what the Crucible does by exploiting the mass relay network, with the help of the Protheans and previous advanced civilizations. That description also fits the research and development behind the Conduit.

"Thinking for ourselves" can wait until after the Reapers aren't breathing down our necks. For now, we're a slightly less-advanced civilization on a deadline to complete extermination.
 

And yes, it's thanks to the Protheans that this cycle had advance warning of what was to come, and were able to buy some time.  Too bad absolutely nothing was done with it.

Well, that's the hand intentionally dealt by ME2. The galaxy wasn't going to believe they existed until they were on our doorstep, period.
 

Luke succeeded in destroying a battle station capable of one-shotting a planet while being chased by a Dark Lord of the Sith  by using a snubfighter and a Force-trick .  Unconventional methods

The only thing truly unconventional in that attack, structured and orchestrated as a conventional attack, was giving the enema an unplanned magic push in the right direction.



And no matter how many times you repeat the scenario, this is not one Death Star.

[Iakus]

I don't understand. Your answer to dodgy (but still tolerable) logic is even more dodgy logic that makes all previous civilizations looks like the monkeys?
 

Exploiting kinetic barriers, a commonplace technology, is something that any previous civilization could have done. Why haven't they, and why wouldn't every single Reaper react to their shields being taken down?
 

We were in a rush, but not to figure out the nuance of how its destructive capabilities operated.
 

Millions (nearly billions) year old enemy who have endured countless cycles of advanced civilizations. Bit different than finding the soft spot on some new bully on the playground.
 

Or use their technology against them, with some blind help. That's precisely what the Crucible does by exploiting the mass relay network, with the help of the Protheans and previous advanced civilizations. That description also fits the research and development behind the Conduit.

"Thinking for ourselves" can wait until after the Reapers aren't breathing down our necks. For now, we're a slightly less-advanced civilization on a deadline to complete extermination.
 

Well, that's the hand intentionally dealt by ME2. The galaxy wasn't going to believe they existed until they were on our doorstep, period.
 

The only thing truly unconventional in that attack, structured and orchestrated as a conventional attack, was giving the enema an unplanned magic push in the right direction.



And no matter how many times you repeat the scenario, this is not one Death Star.

Yes, the logic is dodgy (tolerable is debatable) So my question is:  Why does the dodgy logic only get used to screw the player?

 

They didn't because they were dependent on them.  Just as the Reapers desired.

 

You don't think figuring out how the destructive capabilities are supposed to be unleashed might not be an important detail?  I'd put it right up there with "how do I point this thing?"

 

How on Earth did I ever beat Sun Li?  or Jon Irenicus?  Or, heck any enemy who's supposed to be older and wiser than the protagonist? 

 

Except, you know, we don't really use the technology so  much as blindly construct it and attach it without knowing how it works, or what it's supposed to do, or even how to properly build an "on" switch.

 

but hey, we can follow blueprints if we put enough effort into it.  So go Team Current Cycle!  

 

the unconventional attack was using one-man fighters against the thing in the first place.  They didn't expect such tiny gnats to be flung at them, and exploited a potential weakness.

 

But the point is using creativity and the tools you have to solve your problems.  Not blindly follow in the footsteps of people whom "you would not know, and there is no time to explain" because, hey, we urinated away whatever lead time we had, and the writers went and built these enemies to be overly OP.

[Vazgen]

Iakus, you say it yourself that 1) the time for preparation was wasted and 2) writers made the Reapers OP. It already disproves of possible notion of conventional victory (or a victory without superweapon, if you like that wording more).

Next, the Crucible, as the Catalyst puts it, is a little more than a power source. The Catalyst, the intelligence sitting on the Citadel is the one operating and shooting it. The scientists knew that the Crucible can destroy the Reapers and planned to figure out how it shoots after attaching the Catalyst which was an unknown until the end of the game. After Vendetta tells Shepard about it, it's already too late for testing. Reapers move the Citadel to Earth and protect it with their fleet. 

 

You might say, why did the galactic civilizations put so much faith in a completely unknown device that never worked before? Simple, they did not. The only ones who went with the idea at first were the humans who had already got their fleets decimated and Earth captured. Other species only joined up later and did it while pushing their own agenda. Krogans demanded genophage cure, quarians - destruction of the geth, turians - help for Palaven. Salarians and asari only joined up when the war pressed on their borders.

 

And last, there is no information on a centralized command center for the Reaper forces, even after Vendetta tells Shepard about the Catalyst. There was no "sensitive sphincter" to target. For all the galaxy knows, each Reaper is a huge nearly indestructible self-aware weapon of mass destruction. There was not even a hint of them having some sort of command structure and/or a control center.

[dreamgazer]

Yes, the logic is dodgy (tolerable is debatable) So my question is:  Why does the dodgy logic only get used to screw the player?

This tolerable dodgy logic provided the setting for a game. However you perceive the ending now, the dodgy logic you're suggesting would make the universe look far worse.
 

They didn't because they were dependent on them.  Just as the Reapers desired.

So? It's a commonplace technology that this civilization has harnessed. If it were that simple, they'd tear 'em down.
 

You don't think figuring out how the destructive capabilities are supposed to be unleashed might not be an important detail?  I'd put it right up there with "how do I point this thing?"

It's less important when you trust the source and don't have any alternative, and the galaxy has gone above and beyond trusting the Protheans.
 

How on Earth did I ever beat Sun Li?  or Jon Irenicus?  Or, heck any enemy who's supposed to be older and wiser than the protagonist?

You really need to stop limiting the Reapers to "one enemy".

And the Reapers are faaaaaaaar older and seasoned than you're trying to make them out to be, too.
 

Except, you know, we don't really use the technology so  much as blindly construct it and attach it without knowing how it works, or what it's supposed to do, or even how to properly build an "on" switch.

We have a general idea of how it works and what it's supposed to do. We just don't have specifics, and we're too desperate to abandon a ray of hope.
 

but hey, we can follow blueprints if we put enough effort into it.  So go Team Current Cycle!  

Sure can, and they've gotta be kosher if the Protheans devised them. The rest of the galaxy still operates under the assumption that the Protheans built the relays; we know that they had a deeper understanding of the relays and other technologies like the beacons. Between those two sides, it's safe to say that they're a reliable source.
 

the unconventional attack was using one-man fighters against the thing in the first place.  They didn't expect such tiny gnats to be flung at them, and exploited a potential weakness.

Uh, you mean except for the trained squadrons who quickly responded to the attack, right? The ones who nearly wiped out the counter-offensive?

Why on earth is using standard, coordinated fighters and a map to a strategic destination an "unconventional attack"?
 

But the point is using creativity and the tools you have to solve your problems.  Not blindly follow in the footsteps of people whom "you would not know, and there is no time to explain" because, hey, we urinated away whatever lead time we had, and the writers went and built these enemies to be overly OP.

They've been sky-darkening enemies who wipe out advanced civilizations since ME1, and it took an enormous amount of effort (including a DEM datafile and a mystical connection to hopper Saren) to take even one out in ME1. They've always been "OP".

I'd rather have the creative, layered communication between previous civilizations that led to the Crucible than a true last-minute solution that makes all of 'em look like neanderthals, when if anything we're the "primitives" in comparison.

[Valmar]

You know even if we've been planning for the war since the first game I doubt we'd stand a chance. Two years of planning is not going to fair well against an ancient race of sentient machines that have spent BILLIONS of years building their forces. Its silly to believe that we can counter that in just two years. Even if the entire cycle were tireless synthetics that work 24-7 we wouldn't be able to counter that in just two years. We were doomed from the start. Anyone who really thinks we have any hope of beating them conventionally or without the crucible must not have been paying attention for the entire trilogy. 

[Iakus]

Iakus, you say it yourself that 1) the time for preparation was wasted and 2) writers made the Reapers OP. It already disproves of possible notion of conventional victory (or a victory without superweapon, if you like that wording more).

 

I'd say it disproves that the writers will allow a "conventional"` victory.  I'd call it a general weakness of the entire trilogy that we spend three games sitting around waiting fro a MacGuffin to drop into our laps/

 

 

 

Next, the Crucible, as the Catalyst puts it, is a little more than a power source. The Catalyst, the intelligence sitting on the Citadel is the one operating and shooting it. The scientists knew that the Crucible can destroy the Reapers and planned to figure out how it shoots after attaching the Catalyst which was an unknown until the end of the game. After Vendetta tells Shepard about it, it's already too late for testing. Reapers move the Citadel to Earth and protect it with their fleet.

How did the scientists know it could destroy the Reapers?  How did they even know it was a weapon?  One that can deal with thousands of Reqapers scattered throughout the galaxy?  Especially if it is, in fact "just a power source"?  

 

 

 

 

You might say, why did the galactic civilizations put so much faith in a completely unknown device that never worked before? Simple, they did not. The only ones who went with the idea at first were the humans who had already got their fleets decimated and Earth captured. Other species only joined up later and did it while pushing their own agenda. Krogans demanded genophage cure, quarians - destruction of the geth, turians - help for Palaven. Salarians and asari only joined up when the war pressed on their borders.
 

Which still doesn't explain why they joined up at all.  How out of ideas did they have that "help build the alien superweapon seems like a good idea when they still had the resources to contribute to any significant degree?

 

 

And last, there is no information on a centralized command center for the Reaper forces, even after Vendetta tells Shepard about the Catalyst. There was no "sensitive sphincter" to target. For all the galaxy knows, each Reaper is a huge nearly indestructible self-aware weapon of mass destruction. There was not even a hint of them having some sort of command structure and/or a control center.

 

Which again goes to "How is the Crucible supposed to stop the Reapers"?  If individual Reapers had weak points, or a common exploitable flaw, that would be one thing.  But one gizmo that does...something...to stop all Reapers everywhere?

[Iakus]

You know even if we've been planning for the war since the first game I doubt we'd stand a chance. Two years of planning is not going to fair well against an ancient race of sentient machines that have spent BILLIONS of years building their forces. Its silly to believe that we can counter that in just two years. Even if the entire cycle were tireless synthetics that work 24-7 we wouldn't be able to counter that in just two years. We were doomed from the start. Anyone who really thinks we have any hope of beating them conventionally or without the crucible must not have been paying attention for the entire trilogy. 

Maybe if the writers spent two years actually planning the story.

 

Like, did we seriously need hundreds of thousands of Reapers running around?   

 

Did they have to be only two years away from Citadel space?

 

Whatever happened to Vigil's "The Reapers are not invincible"?

 

I mean, what was the point of Sovereign and the dark space relay if they could just fly in and curb-stomp everyone anyway?

[Alamar2078]

@Valmar:  I think it's clear that BW didn't want the Reapers to be beaten through sheer brute force but I think you could reconstruct the series as a whole to give us a small but fighting chance of resisting somewhat.

 

-- The Reapers always used to come in via the Citadel.  If, as a writer, you made the Reapers pay a [critical] cost in energy reserves or similar then this opens the door.

 

-- The Collector Base could have given insight on what the EXACT weaknesses of a Reaper could be.   Tons of other interesting tidbit may also be there.

 

-- If more information could have been learned about Mass Relays esp. about how to subvert then there's a LOT you can do with that

 

Compound this with us not having concrete information about the number of Reapers, whether the Reapers are technologically stagnant, etc. and there are plenty of degrees of freedom you could have. 

[dreamgazer]

Like, did we seriously need hundreds of thousands of Reapers running around?

No, but I've never read a figure for the Reapers over 100k.   
 

Did they have to be only two years away from Citadel space?

That ain't ME3.
 

Whatever happened to Vigil's "The Reapers are not invincible"?

They're not invincible. Doesn't mean they're beatable.

Boxers with undefeated records aren't invincible, either.
 

I mean, what was the point of Sovereign and the dark space relay if they could just fly in and curb-stomp everyone anyway?

Element of surprise means less resources lost and expended through a drawn-out war against the galaxy. It also means the galaxy can't coordinate to build something like the Crucible, or simply coordinate for supplies, or communicate the despair that might lead to suicidal planets (as evidenced in ME3). Again, they're not invincible. Just near-invincible, formidable enough to not be beatable by conventional means.

[dreamgazer]

-- The Collector Base could have given insight on what the EXACT weaknesses of a Reaper could be.   Tons of other interesting tidbit may also be there.

This could never be the case since the Collector Base could be destroyed, and since messing around with Reaper technology (particularly on a grand scale) gets folks indoctrinated.

[Valmar]

Maybe if the writers spent two years actually planning the story.

 

Like, did we seriously need hundreds of thousands of Reapers running around?   

 

While I won't argue the story is planned, for obviously it wasn't all flesh out from the get-go, the aspect of the reapers having vast quantities of ships is not something only introduced in ME3. They set that up since the very first game when they made a villain that is eons upon eons years old and has numbers that will "darken the skies of every world". How anticlimatic would it be if this billion year old fleet turned out to just be a small handful in number that we could outnumber in the span of two years? This aspect, imo, was planned out.

 

 

Whatever happened to Vigil's "The Reapers are not invincible"?

 

He isn't wrong. We see reapers being destroyed. That doesn't magically equate to us actually having a chance against them, though. This is cherry picking, really. For every sliver of hope given to us that we might stand a chance of defeating the reapers there is boatloads of content throughout the trilogy pointing out that we cannot.

 

Vigil mentioning that they're not invincible doesn't suddenly mean we should ignore all the evidence saying we cannot beat them conventionally. We may hurt them more than any cycle has since the the relays were created... but that doesn't mean much if we still lose. Our destruction was inevitable. It is only through the use of the crucible that victory could be achieved. There was NO hope whatsoever of winning a conventional war.

 

 

I mean, what was the point of Sovereign and the dark space relay if they could just fly in and curb-stomp everyone anyway?

 

Vastly increased efficiency. It's becoming a grinding pet-peeve of mine as of late to see people continuously undervalue the significance of the relay network.  They provide so much more than just shortcuts for flying through the galaxy.

 

 

@Valmar:  I think it's clear that BW didn't want the Reapers to be beaten through sheer brute force but I think you could reconstruct the series as a whole to give us a small but fighting chance of resisting somewhat.

 

Certainly. I don't see the relevance in this argument however. I mean, yeah, you definitely could rewrite the story to take these things into account to make your desired scenario work. But that is fanfiction. Which is lovely, I read a ton of ME fanfiction. It isn't lore though. The story, as its written, the actual canon lore makes it very clear that we cannot defeat the reapers conventionally. Can we rewrite it and make it work? Oh yeah. But that is true of absolutely anything. We could rewrite the story to make it fit into any scenario you desire since you're giving yourself the liberty of changing or adding things into it.

 

The discussion was not, far as I know, how you could retell the story to work a conventional victory into the plot. It was how could you work a conventional victory into the story AS IT IS. Which, as I've mentioned earlier, isn't possible unless you don't mind completely contradicting the lore. The only way we could conventionally win against the reapers is, like you said, if you reconstructed the entire series with that agenda in mind. Since the first game, however, it was set up that we couldn't win by any conventional means. This isn't something only waved around in ME3, it goes back further than that.

 

 

Element of surprise means less resources lost and expended through a drawn-out war against the galaxy. It also means the galaxy can't coordinate to build something like the Crucible, or simply coordinate for supplies, or communicate the despair that might lead to suicidal planets (as evidenced in ME3). Again, they're not invincible. Just near-invincible, formidable enough to not be beatable by conventional means.

 

Finally someone who respects the significance of the relay system. Also interesting to take into account the whole issue that arrives with space travel without the mass effect. Time-dilation, for one. Imagine the mess that could come from harvesting a space-faring species that advanced without FTL drives. The mass effect removes that variable and keeps everything working in a relatively timely matter.

[Vazgen]

I'd say it disproves that the writers will allow a "conventional"` victory. I'd call it a general weakness of the entire trilogy that we spend three games sitting around waiting fro a MacGuffin to drop into our laps/

How did the scientists know it could destroy the Reapers? How did they even know it was a weapon? One that can deal with thousands of Reqapers scattered throughout the galaxy? Especially if it is, in fact "just a power source"?


Which still doesn't explain why they joined up at all. How out of ideas did they have that "help build the alien superweapon seems like a good idea when they still had the resources to contribute to any significant degree?


Which again goes to "How is the Crucible supposed to stop the Reapers"? If individual Reapers had weak points, or a common exploitable flaw, that would be one thing. But one gizmo that does...something...to stop all Reapers everywhere?

That the device is capable of "unquantifiable levels of destruction" was clear enough so Liara was able to figure it out without scientists from all the galaxy helping her. Even if that energy can affect only one Reaper at a time, the weapon can turn the tide, assuming the Catalyst is mobile (they didn't know anything about it at a time). A weapon that can kill a Reaper in one shot moved around and protected by the fleet. And they did try to figure out how it shoots (dialogue with Liara) but they could have never succeeded without the Catalyst. And don't forget that it is assumed to be of Prothean origin who proved to be the most effective at fighting the Reapers before and managed to delay the invasion by subverting Reaper signal to the keepers. Mars archives were also the key to the rapid evolution of human technology, so the human scientists were quite fine with trusting in a Prothean superweapon.

As for why they joined, why not? All their other plans bother Reapers as much as mosquito bites. Might as well send some resources into this project that the humans trust so much.

[Iakus]

While I won't argue the story is planned, for obviously it wasn't all flesh out from the get-go, the aspect of the reapers having vast quantities of ships is not something only introduced in ME3. They set that up since the very first game when they made a villain that is eons upon eons years old and has numbers that will "darken the skies of every world". How anticlimatic would it be if this billion year old fleet turned out to just be a small handful in number that we could outnumber in the span of two years? This aspect, imo, was planned out.

 

 

And yet the way the Reapers were written in ME3, Shepard never should have gotten off Earth alive.  Reapers as powerful as they were portrayed and "darkening the sky of every world" should have meant there was no hope.  

 

That is anticlimatic.

 

 

 

He isn't wrong. We see reapers being destroyed. That doesn't magically equate to us actually having a chance against them, though. This is cherry picking, really. For every sliver of hope given to us that we might stand a chance of defeating the reapers there is boatloads of content throughout the trilogy pointing out that we cannot.

Vigil mentioning that they're not invincible doesn't suddenly mean we should ignore all the evidence saying we cannot beat them conventionally. We may hurt them more than any cycle has since the the relays were created... but that doesn't mean much if we still lose. Our destruction was inevitable. It is only through the use of the crucible that victory could be achieved. There was NO hope whatsoever of winning a conventional war.

 

 

Actually there isn't.

 

We learn very little about the Reapers in ME1.  And ME2 virtually ignored them.  It's only in ME3 that we get "THE REAPERS CAN'T BE BEATEN CONVENTIONALLY!!! OH NOEES!!!"  

 

Up until ME3 Bioware could have given them any number, given them any weakness, made the Crucible (or whatever MacGuffin they chose) do pretty much whatever they wanted.  And they picked...this.

 

 

Vastly increased efficiency. It's becoming a grinding pet-peeve of mine as of late to see people continuously undervalue the significance of the relay network.  They provide so much more than just shortcuts for flying through the galaxy.

 

Except with tens of thousands (at least) of Reapers at the power level we are talking about, the Dark Space relay stops becoming about efficiency and becomes an overengineered plot point.  In particular with the revelation of the Alpha Relay.They have the number, power, and proximity to not need the Citadel at all.

 

In particular if they actually went and hit the Citadel before Earth.  In which case it wouldn't have mattered if the Crucible plans were found or not, since the relay network would have already been shut down.

[Iakus]

That the device is capable of "unquantifiable levels of destruction" was clear enough so Liara was able to figure it out without scientists from all the galaxy helping her. Even if that energy can affect only one Reaper at a time, the weapon can turn the tide, assuming the Catalyst is mobile (they didn't know anything about it at a time). A weapon that can kill a Reaper in one shot moved around and protected by the fleet. And they did try to figure out how it shoots (dialogue with Liara) but they could have never succeeded without the Catalyst. And don't forget that it is assumed to be of Prothean origin who proved to be the most effective at fighting the Reapers before and managed to delay the invasion by subverting Reaper signal to the keepers. Mars archives were also the key to the rapid evolution of human technology, so the human scientists were quite fine with trusting in a Prothean superweapon.

As for why they joined, why not? All their other plans bother Reapers as much as mosquito bites. Might as well send some resources into this project that the humans trust so much.

 

Lots of things can cause vast levels of destruction without being intended as a weapon.  What if Liara had found the Prothean version of a GECK?

 

And the Reapers have already proven they can tear through any fleet.  A dozen wiped out Arcturus station, the home base of the Alliance fleet?  What is it going to do while the Crucible is busy one-shotting 20,000 Reapers one at a time?

 

And the Protheans were not "proved to be the most effective at fighting the Reapers" They were the only known race to fight the Reapers.  There were no records left of any of the previous cycles.  And in fact until Javik was found they didn't even know there were other races in the Prothean cycle!