185 réponses à ce sujet

[Valmar]

And yet the way the Reapers were written in ME3, Shepard never should have gotten off Earth alive.  Reapers as powerful as they were portrayed and "darkening the sky of every world" should have meant there was no hope.  

 

That is anticlimatic.

 

 

There isn't any hope, though. That's the whole point of the argument. There is no hope to win this war conventionally. Hence the need for the crucible.

 

 

Actually there isn't.

 

We learn very little about the Reapers in ME1.  And ME2 virtually ignored them.  It's only in ME3 that we get "THE REAPERS CAN'T BE BEATEN CONVENTIONALLY!!! OH NOEES!!!"  

 

They are beings that have existed for eons. They have been harvesting the cycles of organics ever 50,000 years for longer than many can fathom. Their numbers are vast and easily dwarf our own. This is what we know in the first game alone. That, in of itself, makes the reapers unbeatable conventionally on those points alone. Anyone who plays the first two titles and really believes we have a conventional shot at beating the reapers are either in denial or just didn't pay attention.

 

ME3 is the first time the organics have told us that we can't beat the reapers conventionally, sure. ME3 is also the first time anyone other than (essentially) Shepard is even willing to take the reaper threat seriously. Big shock no military leader in the first two games tells us the reapers can't be beaten conventionally. Essentially everyone at that point dismissed the reaper threat as being too ridiculous to be true. In ME3 its revealed to the rest of the galaxy that SURPRISE the reapers are real. They're only now grasping the severity of the situation, something we the player have known about since the beginning of the damn trilogy.

 

This is a matter of taking fact without context. Yes, only ME3 makes a point of having the military express to you how hopeless the battle is. However that doesn't mean its new to the series and only makes appearance in ME3. We've been screwed since day one and only in ME3 does everyone else catch up on the news.

 

Ah, yes. Reapers. The immortal race of sentient starships allegedly waiting in dark space. We have dismissed that claim.

 

 

Up until ME3 Bioware could have given them any number, given them any weakness, made the Crucible (or whatever MacGuffin they chose) do pretty much whatever they wanted.  And they picked...this.

 

 

They could had. They didn't. I mentioned in my last post to someone but this argument over conventional victory being impossible is based off the actual game lore and narrative AS IS. Not fanfiction, not what could had been, not what we think would be better. Its based off whats in the story. The story since day one has made conventional victory impossible, at least without introducing serious plot holes. Which, as someone who hates the ending as vehemently as yourself, I would imagine you should be quite opposed to. You'd be replacing one flawed mess with another.

 

Except with tens of thousands (at least) of Reapers at the power level we are talking about, the Dark Space relay stops becoming about efficiency and becomes an overengineered plot point.  In particular with the revelation of the Alpha Relay.They have the number, power, and proximity to not need the Citadel at all.

 

Did you even read the wiki article I linked about the relays? I'm sure you believe you know all there is to know about it and you might be right. Humor me at least and give it a read. The Mass Relays are far more significant then people often given them credit for. Also read up some on time dilation in space. Its really interesting stuff. As someone who can put so much time speculating the repercussions and implications of why the ending choices are bad surely you can put a sliver of that to work on the relays and realize what a big deal they are.

 

The relays are so much more vital to the reaper's efficiency plan than just being short cuts for them to use. Too many people think "oh big deal now they just have to fly there and take a little longer boohoo!" Its deeper then that.

 

Also it was never a matter of them NEEDING the citadel/relays. They can do the harvest without them and according to the lore they DID use to perform the harvest without them. These things were added to improve the efficiency, not because they're essential to the harvest itself.

 

Btw, you should really know the importance of the relays. You yourself brought it up in the last page.

Spoiler

 

It is, and it was the weakness of the cycle.  It was, in fact, the Reapers' trap "Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire."

 

 

In particular if they actually went and hit the Citadel before Earth.  In which case it wouldn't have mattered if the Crucible plans were found or not, since the relay network would have already been shut down.

 

They were taking their time, seemingly unperturbed by our insignificant resistance. We see how easily they tear through all our fleets even without catching us by surprise. Seems to have worked well enough for them as well since it was keeping the races from working together for the most part. Everyone was paranoid and worried about protecting their own ass. Most of them only chip in and help at the very last moment when the reapers have left them no other option.

 

Later in the game we see certain areas of space get completely lost by the reaper invasion and our map gradually shrinks down as they approach the center. Given that they've taken out the major big players of the war it isn't entirely unjustified. Palavan has been bombarded and earth is in flames. I think we all know the biggest threat, if you can call it that, to the reapers was the turians. They're not completely out of the picture but they have been hindered.

 

Would it had been wiser to just storm in straight to the citadel? Probably, though I imagine a clever enough person can come up with reasons why they'd wait. The Illusive Man was indoctrinated so maybe that was part of their plan to take it back originally. They do like working through intermediaries.

 

Regardless, even if no excuse is given this is a game. Would kinda suck to pick it up and have it instantly go game over, you lose, thanks for the $70, buy the DLC.  Where's the fun in that. Even if they don't provide a reason why the reapers dont just attack the citadel immediately its a good thing that they didn't because the game wouldn't even be a game at that point. It'd be a gameover screen. Somethings aren't meant to be analyzed so closely.

 

 

 

And the Reapers have already proven they can tear through any fleet.  A dozen wiped out Arcturus station, the home base of the Alliance fleet?  What is it going to do while the Crucible is busy one-shotting 20,000 Reapers one at a time?

 

This only goes to further prove how hopeless conventional victory is against the reapers.

 

Though having a weapon that could one-shot a CAPITAL reaper ship would not be insignificant. I don't see it being enough to win against the reapers but it would be far better then NOT having it. We might be able to survive as long or longer than the protheans. The harvest is a slow process, afterall. Could add a few extra surviving generations to our tally before being completely harvested.

[Vazgen]

Lots of things can cause vast levels of destruction without being intended as a weapon.  What if Liara had found the Prothean version of a GECK?

 

And the Reapers have already proven they can tear through any fleet.  A dozen wiped out Arcturus station, the home base of the Alliance fleet?  What is it going to do while the Crucible is busy one-shotting 20,000 Reapers one at a time?

 

And the Protheans were not "proved to be the most effective at fighting the Reapers" They were the only known race to fight the Reapers.  There were no records left of any of the previous cycles.  And in fact until Javik was found they didn't even know there were other races in the Prothean cycle!

Too bad Liara deliberately says that it's a weapon.

 

We see in the course of the game that they can be stalled. With a backup weapon that one shots capital ships it should shift the odds, especially if the gun has AoE and/or high rate of fire. About Arcturus station, don't forget the element of surprise. Think Pearl Harbor.

 

You are right, I worded it badly. What I meant is that current cylce has a history of trusting Prothean technology so it was not that big of a leap.

[Iakus]

There isn't any hope, though. That's the whole point of the argument. There is no hope to win this war conventionally. Hence the need for the crucible.

 

 

I'm talking about even less than what you are describing.  I mean, Shepard should have died on Earth.  I'm talking even with Liara's Crucible plans, it's pointless because the relay network should have already fallen to the Reapers.  I'm talking the simultanious harvesting of every homeworld, the Council dead, the Citadel taken before Shepard's conversation with Anderson ends

 

 

I'm talking ME3 should have started and ended with "critical mission failure" given how powerful the Reapers were portrayed.

 

 

They are beings that have existed for eons. They have been harvesting the cycles of organics ever 50,000 years for longer than many can fathom. Their numbers are vast and easily dwarf our own. This is what we know in the first game alone. That, in of itself, makes the reapers unbeatable conventionally on those points alone. Anyone who plays the first two titles and really believes we have a conventional shot at beating the reapers are either in denial or just didn't pay attention.

 

And yet for all their power, they operated in the shadows, hiding their existence, afraid to confront a united galaxy.  Afraid to let them learn anything the Reapers don't want them to learn.  They're powerful, but vulnerable.  They're ambush predators

 

That's what I learned in ME1 and ME2

 

They could had. They didn't. I mentioned in my last post to someone but this argument over conventional victory being impossible is based off the actual game lore and narrative AS IS. Not fanfiction, not what could had been, not what we think would be better. Its based off whats in the story. The story since day one has made conventional victory impossible, at least without introducing serious plot holes. Which, as someone who hates the ending as vehemently as yourself, I would imagine you should be quite opposed to. You'd be replacing one flawed mess with another.

 

And my contention is that it wasn't until ME3 that the situation was that hopeless.  And even then they laid it on to a ludicrous degree, to the point where any victory is stupidly unrealistic, not jsut a "conventional" victory.  So I say:  Might as well be conventional.

 

 

Did you even read the wiki article I linked about the relays? I'm sure you believe you know all there is to know about it and you might be right. Humor me at least and give it a read. The Mass Relays are far more significant then people often given them credit for. Also read up some on time dilation in space. Its really interesting stuff. As someone who can put so much time speculating the repercussions and implications of why the ending choices are bad surely you can put a sliver of that to work on the relays and realize what a big deal they are.

The relays are so much more vital to the reaper's efficiency plan than just being short cuts for them to use. Too many people think "oh big deal now they just have to fly there and take a little longer boohoo!" Its deeper then that.

I am aware of the concept of time dilation, yes.  But Mass Effect, like a lot of other scifi settings (Stargate, Star Trek, etc), seem to ignore it.  FTL happens all the time in inter-system travel, with no significant dilation.  I mean, heck, the Reapers were already doing 30ly/day over two years before ME3.  To no apparant ill effect.

 

 

Also it was never a matter of them NEEDING the citadel/relays. They can do the harvest without them and according to the lore they DID use to perform the harvest without them. These things were added to improve the efficiency, not because they're essential to the harvest itself.

Btw, you should really know the importance of the relays. You yourself brought it up in the last page.

Spoiler

They were taking their time, seemingly unperturbed by our insignificant resistance. We see how easily they tear through all our fleets even without catching us by surprise. Seems to have worked well enough for them as well since it was keeping the races from working together for the most part. Everyone was paranoid and worried about protecting their own ass. Most of them only chip in and help at the very last moment when the reapers have left them no other option.

Later in the game we see certain areas of space get completely lost by the reaper invasion and our map gradually shrinks down as they approach the center. Given that they've taken out the major big players of the war it isn't entirely unjustified. Palavan has been bombarded and earth is in flames. I think we all know the biggest threat, if you can call it that, to the reapers was the turians. They're not completely out of the picture but they have been hindered.

Would it had been wiser to just storm in straight to the citadel? Probably, though I imagine a clever enough person can come up with reasons why they'd wait. The Illusive Man was indoctrinated so maybe that was part of their plan to take it back originally. They do like working through intermediaries.

Regardless, even if no excuse is given this is a game. Would kinda suck to pick it up and have it instantly go game over, you lose, thanks for the $70, buy the DLC.  Where's the fun in that. Even if they don't provide a reason why the reapers dont just attack the citadel immediately its a good thing that they didn't because the game wouldn't even be a game at that point. It'd be a gameover screen. Somethings aren't meant to be analyzed so closely.

 

 

That's the point though, tehy didn't.  And there was no explanation for it.

 

What's worse, thery could have done this at any time.  Even during ME1.  They didn't need Saren at all!

 

Fly to Alpha Relay

Capture Citadel

Profit!

 

Even plowing through the batarians didn't appreciably slow them.  So yeah, it wouldn't have been fun to open ME3 to a "Game Over" screen.  But that just shows how silly and contrived ME3 is.  Which makes the RGB choices and the Refusal troll all the worse, because those are contrived as well.  It's as forced tragic outcome to a forced tragic situation where contrivance only works against us. It's a 30 hour game where the writers watch us squirm and run around before finishing off our Shepard.

[Iakus]

Too bad Liara deliberately says that it's a weapon.

 

We see in the course of the game that they can be stalled. With a backup weapon that one shots capital ships it should shift the odds, especially if the gun has AoE and/or high rate of fire. About Arcturus station, don't forget the element of surprise. Think Pearl Harbor.

 

You are right, I worded it badly. What I meant is that current cylce has a history of trusting Prothean technology so it was not that big of a leap.

She does, which again makes you wonder how she can possibly know that.  unless the header to the document reads "Prothean Anti-Reaper Weapon:  Only Open in the Event of a Harvest"

 

And Arcturus wasn't ambushed.  Hacket was there with three fleets he was mobilizing.

 

Heck the fact that Shepard was being questioned about the Reapers at the time made it pretty clear the Alliance knew the Reapers were on the way.

[Vazgen]

She does, which again makes you wonder how she can possibly know that.  unless the header to the document reads "Prothean Anti-Reaper Weapon:  Only Open in the Event of a Harvest"

 

And Arcturus wasn't ambushed.  Hacket was there with three fleets he was mobilizing.

 

Heck the fact that Shepard was being questioned about the Reapers at the time made it pretty clear the Alliance knew the Reapers were on the way.

Maybe it was indeed the case. The point is, they knew it is a powerful weapon capable of shifting the balance of power in favor of organics in the best case and of killing a bunch of capital Reaper ships in the worst.

 

Arcturus Station is the site of a battle between the Alliance's Second, Third, and Fifth Fleets and Reaper forces on their way to Sol. While the Alliance defends the station from a dozen Reaper capital ships, the bulk of the Reaper fleet rushes through the mass relay. Admiral Steven Hackett realizes he cannot win, and is forced to abandon the station and sacrifice the Second Fleet to allow the Third and Fifth Fleets to escape.

[themikefest]

Too bad Liara deliberately says that it's a weapon.

 

Or says she discovered it without actually discovering it. Meaning she didn't find any plans. She only found bits and pieces. Clues really. For all we know it could be plans to cooking Prothean apple pie.

[Vazgen]

Or says she discovered it without actually discovering it. Meaning she didn't find any plans. She only found bits and pieces. Clues really. For all we know it could be plans to cooking Prothean apple pie.

Uhm, what? Are you trying to say that what Liara says is basically irrelevant and that she can't tell a weapon from an apple pie? 

[themikefest]

Uhm, what? Are you trying to say that what Liara says is basically irrelevant and that she can't tell a weapon from an apple pie? 

If she hasn't see the plans, then yes. How can you say you found something without actually seeing them?

 

She says the plans are in the archives. Ok. Why didn't she forward them to Hackett? When did she first discover these plans? Hackett gave her access to the archives. I believe she has never been to the archives

 

She tells you she discovered plans for weapon that can wipe out the reapers. Ok. A moment later she says I think I found what we need. Now wait a minute. Did you find something or not? First she says she discovered plans for a weapon now she says I thinks I found what we need. Make up your mind.  A few minutes later, Kaidan/Ashley say they're unclear to what she found and that's when she says bits and pieces, clues really. So these clues say the plans are in the archives, but she hasn''t seen them to verify that the plans are indeed for a weapon. 

[Vazgen]

If she hasn't see the plans, then yes. How can you say you found something without actually seeing them?

 

She says the plans are in the archives. Ok. Why didn't she forward them to Hackett? When did she first discover these plans? Hackett gave her access to the archives. I believe she has never been to the archives

 

She tells you she discovered plans for weapon that can wipe out the reapers. Ok. A moment later she says I think I found what we need. Now wait a minute. Did you find something or not? First she says she discovered plans for a weapon now she says I thinks I found what we need. Make up your mind.  A few minutes later, Kaidan/Ashley say they're unclear to what she found and that's when she says bits and pieces, clues really. So these clues say the plans are in the archives, but she hasn''t seen them to verify that the plans are indeed for a weapon. 

She forwards the plans to Hackett on the Normandy. And she mentions that it's a weapon on the Normandy. On Mars Shepard says "sounds like we have something to blow the Reapers into hell" (or something like that) to which she replies "maybe". I don't see a problem here. 

[themikefest]

She forwards the plans to Hackett on the Normandy. And she mentions that it's a weapon on the Normandy. On Mars Shepard says "sounds like we have something to blow the Reapers into hell" (or something like that) to which she replies "maybe". I don't see a problem here. 

That's after the plans are found in the archives after Shepard gets to the archives not before. She  never found the plans. The Evabot did that.

[Vazgen]

That's after the plans are found in the archives after Shepard gets to the archives not before. She  never found the plans. The Evabot did that.

Yes. So? I never referred to her words on Mars, I was talking about her conversation with Hackett. The "unquantifiable levels of destruction" line comes from that conversation

[themikefest]

A refusal ending scenario with the allied fleets fighting the reapers with a high ems. I've seen folks post that have over 20 000 ems and still get the same ending as someon who only 3100 ems. What happens to the rest of the 16 900 ems? Do they sit back and watch the 3100 take care of things? 

 

I would have it where the player has all ME2 squadmates alive, geophage cured with Wrex and Eve alive, peace between Geth and Quarians.

 

As I've posted on a previous page, I would have all planets do what Illium did. That is fire at the troop carrier ships and the processing ships. This delayed the invasion of Illium until the reapers  could bring in replacements. If all planets are able to do this, the reapers might be in a spot they've never been in before and would be at a lost at what to do.

 

After Chronos, while all the fleets assemble, which will take time, I would have the Normandy scan the systems that have the fewest amount of reapers. I would send the fleets,  led by Fleet Admiral Irix Coronati, to destroy those reaper ships. I would do the same for every system working up to the systems with the most.

 

With Earth, Thessia and Palaven the last 3 to take care of, I would head to Palaven and destroy the reapers there followed by Thessia and then to Earth.

 

The reason why I did this way is because if the fleets attack the reapers at Earth,and stop them, there's a chance the allied fleets would be in serious trouble and may not be able to survive another fight. I opted to go with the systems with the fewest and work backwards, that way you have as much of the fleets left to fight them at Earth.

 

This all depends on the number of reapers.

[themikefest]

Yes. So? I never referred to her words on Mars, I was talking about her conversation with Hackett. The "unquantifiable levels of destruction" line comes from that conversation

No kidding she says it at that time. Why did she say she discoverd a weapon that could wipeout the reapers without seeing the plans? How would she know? Did she say it to get her hopes up or was it Bioware wanting the player to know that it was her that discovered the crucible, which she didn't, that eventually leads to the end of the reapers?

[Vazgen]

No kidding she says it at that time. Why did she say she discoverd a weapon that could wipeout the reapers without seeing the plans? How would she know? Did she say it to get her hopes up or was it Bioware wanting the player to know that it was her that discovered the crucible, which she didn't, that eventually leads to the end of the reapers?

I'd pick the first option (bolded). 

[JasonShepard]

A refusal ending scenario with the allied fleets fighting the reapers with a high ems. I've seen folks post that have over 20 000 ems and still get the same ending as someon who only 3100 ems. What happens to the rest of the 16 900 ems? Do they sit back and watch the 3100 take care of things? 

 

I would have it where the player has all ME2 squadmates alive, geophage cured with Wrex and Eve alive, peace between Geth and Quarians.

 

As I've posted on a previous page, I would have all planets do what Illium did. That is fire at the troop carrier ships and the processing ships. This delayed the invasion of Illium until the reapers  could bring in replacements. If all planets are able to do this, the reapers might be in a spot they've never been in before and would be at a lost at what to do.

 

After Chronos, while all the fleets assemble, which will take time, I would have the Normandy scan the systems that have the fewest amount of reapers. I would send the fleets,  led by Fleet Admiral Irix Coronati, to destroy those reaper ships. I would do the same for every system working up to the systems with the most.

 

With Earth, Thessia and Palaven the last 3 to take care of, I would head to Palaven and destroy the reapers there followed by Thessia and then to Earth.

 

The reason why I did this way is because if the fleets attack the reapers at Earth,and stop them, there's a chance the allied fleets would be in serious trouble and may not be able to survive another fight. I opted to go with the systems with the fewest and work backwards, that way you have as much of the fleets left to fight them at Earth.

 

This all depends on the number of reapers.

 

The problem with this sort of strategy is that, when the Reapers realise what you're doing, they organise their fleets such that none of them are small enough to be threatened by your forces. If necessary, they form one massive fleet and completely harvest each planet in turn. It's not like they're in a hurry, and it's not like you can evacuate fast enough to keep your people away from them. And there aren't enough ships in the galaxy to take on all the Reapers at once, regardless of your EMS (which wasn't really a great system).

[themikefest]

The problem with this sort of strategy is that, when the Reapers realise what you're doing, they organise their fleets such that none of them are small enough to be threatened by your forces. If necessary, they form one massive fleet and completely harvest each planet in turn. It's not like they're in a hurry, and it's not like you can evacuate fast enough to keep your people away from them. And there aren't enough ships in the galaxy to take on all the Reapers at once, regardless of your EMS (which wasn't really a great system).

Then why didn't they do that to begin with? How long would it take for them to realize what I'm doing? The Fleets might get lucky and have destroyed enough reapers by that time to have a fighting chance. The other thing is why didn't they have reapers positioned at each relay in the systems preventing ships from leaving and entering systems when they first entered the galaxy at the beginning? Aren't they suppose to be this high and mighty force? 

[Swan Killer]

A little off here, but... About the Caleston Rift, which was caused by a very powerful mass accelerator weapon that disabled a Reaper and left a canyon big enough to see from outer space? According to TIM they found the weapon, whatever happened to that?

[Iakus]

Then why didn't they do that to begin with? How long would it take for them to realize what I'm doing? The Fleets might get lucky and have destroyed enough reapers by that time to have a fighting chance. The other thing is why didn't they have reapers positioned at each relay in the systems preventing ships from leaving and entering systems when they first entered the galaxy at the beginning? Aren't they suppose to be this high and mighty force? 

Or, you know, rush the Citadel and "assume direct control" of the relays, like they've done every single cycle before this one? 

[ImaginaryMatter]

A little off here, but... About the Caleston Rift, which was caused by a very powerful mass accelerator weapon that disabled a Reaper and left a canyon big enough to see from outer space? According to TIM they found the weapon, whatever happened to that?

 

They found the source. There was nothing left though when the Cerberus team arrived. The implication that the Reapers wiped out the race that build the device.

[Valmar]

I'm talking about even less than what you are describing.  I mean, Shepard should have died on Earth.  I'm talking even with Liara's Crucible plans, it's pointless because the relay network should have already fallen to the Reapers.  I'm talking the simultanious harvesting of every homeworld, the Council dead, the Citadel taken before Shepard's conversation with Anderson ends

 

 

I'm talking ME3 should have started and ended with "critical mission failure" given how powerful the Reapers were portrayed.

 

Like I mentioned later in that post, this is a game. Certain suspensions of belief are to be expected to enjoy the game. We're not suppose to over analyze everything about it. This is just a video game.

 

 

 

And yet for all their power, they operated in the shadows, hiding their existence, afraid to confront a united galaxy.  Afraid to let them learn anything the Reapers don't want them to learn.  They're powerful, but vulnerable.  They're ambush predators

 

That's what I learned in ME1 and ME2

 

 

 

Afraid to confront a united galaxy? The reapers... afraid of us? My, you certainly did have a optimistic and naive perspective from the first two titles didn't you. No wonder you were so let down by the third game, you went into it with misguided expectations based around false assumptions.

 

"You exist because we allow it. You will end because we demand it."

 

"You fight against inevitability, dust struggling against cosmic winds."

 

Translation:

"Please don't hurt us mighty organics, we're so afraid of your amazing powah."

 

Just because they streamlined the harvest and made it more efficient doesn't mean they're afraid of us. 

 

 

 

And my contention is that it wasn't until ME3 that the situation was that hopeless.  And even then they laid it on to a ludicrous degree, to the point where any victory is stupidly unrealistic, not jsut a "conventional" victory.  So I say:  Might as well be conventional.

 

It was that hopeless, though, since the start. If a conventional victory is what you were after, anyway. Thats the entire point. ME3 isn't the one that made it hopeless, it was always hopeless. ME3 only brought it to the surface and was more blunt about it.

 

 

 

I am aware of the concept of time dilation, yes.  But Mass Effect, like a lot of other scifi settings (Stargate, Star Trek, etc), seem to ignore it.  FTL happens all the time in inter-system travel, with no significant dilation.  I mean, heck, the Reapers were already doing 30ly/day over two years before ME3.  To no apparant ill effect.

 

They don't ignore it, per se. Its the mass effect that allows them to circumvent it.

 

"With a mass effect drive, roughly a dozen light-years can be traversed in the course of a day's cruise without bending space-time and causing time dilation."

 

There is no time dilation because of the mass effect which is in turn based off the relay technology the reapers left behind. If not for that we'd have cases like the Manswell Expedition happening where humans pop up hundreds of years later.

 

 

That's the point though, tehy didn't.  And there was no explanation for it.

 

What's worse, thery could have done this at any time.  Even during ME1.  They didn't need Saren at all!

 

Fly to Alpha Relay

Capture Citadel

Profit!

 

First off there would be no game in that. We're not meant to hyper-analyze these details. Just go with it.

 

Maybe they preferred working through an agent (Saren) and having Sovereign take care of the problem instead of just rushing through as a fleet. Its clear the alpha relay was a backup plan (backup to a backup, actually) so they DO consider it. It just wasn't their first option. If anything we should be impressed that the reapers had so many contingency plans up their sleeve.

 

 

Even plowing through the batarians didn't appreciably slow them.  So yeah, it wouldn't have been fun to open ME3 to a "Game Over" screen.  But that just shows how silly and contrived ME3 is.  Which makes the RGB choices and the Refusal troll all the worse, because those are contrived as well.  It's as forced tragic outcome to a forced tragic situation where contrivance only works against us. It's a 30 hour game where the writers watch us squirm and run around before finishing off our Shepard.

 

Using your logic though it isn't just ME3 that is flawed this way, the entire trilogy has this problem for us being doomed. You keep singling out ME3 for having a problem that has been in the game since day one. Yeah, we were doomed from the start and had no hope of conventional victory in ME3 so it should had just been a game over. The same could be said about the first game. The same could be said about the second game. These are video games, you're being too sensitive and analyzing them too deeply, apparently for the mere excuse of having something to criticize and complain about.

 

Anyone who played through the trilogy and actually felt the reaper war was a forced tragedy were not paying attention enough. You don't spend two games pointing out how insignificant we are, how weak and small we are before the immortal reapers that have been harvesting the cycles for eons... then have the audacity to be surprised when we're not kicking their ass in ME3. If anything, as this discussion has pointed out, the reapers might have been TAMED down for the last game to even allow there to be a game to play. Omg, the reapers are super powerful and kicking our ass.... who would have guessed that. I mean, its not like this is precisely what we were threatened and warned about since the first game or anything. Oh, wait.

 

We were doomed from the start. Anyone who expecting the reapers to NOT be tearing through us like we're nothing in ME3 were not paying attention or failed to grasp the severity of the situation. The reapers cannot be defeated conventionally. The crucible is our only hope. The war is tragic and hopeless - the ending is not since at least in the ending the reaper threat is resolved. That is a tremendous deal. Hell, Shepard and the entire squad can even survive the entire ordeal.
 

 

 

 

 

[Iakus]

Like I mentioned later in that post, this is a game. Certain suspensions of belief are to be expected to enjoy the game. We're not suppose to over analyze everything about it. This is just a video game.

 

So we're supposed to just "go with it" that the Reapers suffer terminal stupidity in invading the galaxy, and the outright space magic that is the Crucible, but a more conventional victory is somehow unrealistic?

 

 

 

 

Afraid to confront a united galaxy? The reapers... afraid of us? My, you certainly did have a optimistic and naive perspective from the first two titles didn't you. No wonder you were so let down by the third game, you went into it with misguided expectations based around false assumptions.

"You exist because we allow it. You will end because we demand it."

"You fight against inevitability, dust struggling against cosmic winds."

Translation:
"Please don't hurt us mighty organics, we're so afraid of your amazing powah."

Just because they streamlined the harvest and made it more efficient doesn't mean they're afraid of us.

 

Yeah, and how did that work out for Sovereign.

 

Sorry, I don't believe in technogods.  Just very powerful machines.  And Shepard is right:  machines can be broken.  You just have to find their weak points.

 

I don't take trash-talking from the story's antagonist as Veritas.

 

 

 

It was that hopeless, though, since the start. If a conventional victory is what you were after, anyway. Thats the entire point. ME3 isn't the one that made it hopeless, it was always hopeless. ME3 only brought it to the surface and was more blunt about it.

Stopping Sovereign was hopeless

Reviving a corpse was hopeless

Returning from the Omega IV relay was hopeless.

Killing a Reaper on foot was hopeless

Peace between quarians and geth was hopeless.

 

Shall I go on?

 

But stopping the reapers with anything short of a scifi blood magic ritual was hopeless?  

 

 

 

They don't ignore it, per se. Its the mass effect that allows them to circumvent it.
"With a mass effect drive, roughly a dozen light-years can be traversed in the course of a day's cruise without bending space-time and causing time dilation."
There is no time dilation because of the mass effect which is in turn based off the relay technology the reapers left behind. If not for that we'd have cases like the Manswell Expedition happening where humans pop up hundreds of years later.
 

However they handwave it.  Time dilation is effectively ignored.  As both the galaxy as a whole and the Reapers use Mass Effect technology for their FTL travel.  Therefore, the Reapers could have flown into the galaxy at any time and lay waste to it.  The dark space relay was never needed.

 

 

 

First off there would be no game in that. We're not meant to hyper-analyze these details. Just go with it.
Maybe they preferred working through an agent (Saren) and having Sovereign take care of the problem instead of just rushing through as a fleet. Its clear the alpha relay was a backup plan (backup to a backup, actually) so they DO consider it. It just wasn't their first option. If anything we should be impressed that the reapers had so many contingency plans up their sleeve.
 

 

Except rushing through as a fleet would take only a couple of years, while Saren was kicking around with Sovereign for about 20 (going by "Revelation")  If it would have taken centuries or more for them to come back, sure, but the whole Saren plot now seems pointless.  Especially since once they arrived they ignored the Citadel right up until they realized Shepard had the Crucible plans.

 

 

 

Using your logic though it isn't just ME3 that is flawed this way, the entire trilogy has this problem for us being doomed. You keep singling out ME3 for having a problem that has been in the game since day one. Yeah, we were doomed from the start and had no hope of conventional victory in ME3 so it should had just been a game over. The same could be said about the first game. The same could be said about the second game. These are video games, you're being too sensitive and analyzing them too deeply, apparently for the mere excuse of having something to criticize and complain about.
Anyone who played through the trilogy and actually felt the reaper war was a forced tragedy were not paying attention enough. You don't spend two games pointing out how insignificant we are, how weak and small we are before the immortal reapers that have been harvesting the cycles for eons... then have the audacity to be surprised when we're not kicking their ass in ME3. If anything, as this discussion has pointed out, the reapers might have been TAMED down for the last game to even allow there to be a game to play. Omg, the reapers are super powerful and kicking our ass.... who would have guessed that. I mean, its not like this is precisely what we were threatened and warned about since the first game or anything. Oh, wait.
We were doomed from the start. Anyone who expecting the reapers to NOT be tearing through us like we're nothing in ME3 were not paying attention or failed to grasp the severity of the situation. The reapers cannot be defeated conventionally. The crucible is our only hope. The war is tragic and hopeless - the ending is not since at least in the ending the reaper threat is resolved. That is a tremendous deal. Hell, Shepard and the entire squad can even survive the entire ordeal.

 

You'll find I have few good things to say about ME2 either.  And sadly, their failures further weakened ME1.  

 

I have played through the trilogy.  I lost count of the number of time I played ME1.  So I guess that means I wasn't paying attention.  I must be stupid and overly sensitive like that.

 

And sorry, but if a story demands "You must do something awful in order to beat the Big bad"  I want, nay demand a d@mn good explanation for why it must be. explanation.  I will not "just go with it" especially if the writers have been encouraging me to invest in the story and characters for five years.  hte setup better be fracking flawless.  Not tacked on at the last minute due to some misguided desire for "feelz"  

 

Because on the contrary of making us seem insignificant, the first two games showed we were potentially a threat.  The Reapers' plans were foiled time and again by the hairless ape called Shepard. The whole trilogy kept telling us "we will find a way" "There is always hope"  "nothing is inevitable"  

ANd again, why does conventionally always get boiled down to "headlong charge"?  Why is it always space magic or gtfo?

[Valmar]

So we're supposed to just "go with it" that the Reapers suffer terminal stupidity in invading the galaxy, and the outright space magic that is the Crucible, but a more conventional victory is somehow unrealistic?

 

 

 

Part right, mostly strawman. I was specifically talking about how the reapers don't immediately wipe us out and why the game is a game at all rather than just a "game over" screen expressing how badly we lost and how we should buy DLC to learn more about how much we lost. You're bringing in elements that weren't part of my argument when I made that statement and have no relevance to it.

 

If you went through the entire trilogy with this same level of scrunity where you over-anaylze every detail you'll find a lot of things to complain about. The trilogy is not a shining example of perfect and absolute logical writing. You're able to 'go with it' with the first two games, seemingly ( I don't see you constantly complaining about those, anyway) but refuse to give any leeway with ME3.

 

 

 

Yeah, and how did that work out for Sovereign.

 

Sorry, I don't believe in technogods.  Just very powerful machines.  And Shepard is right:  machines can be broken.  You just have to find their weak points.

 

I don't take trash-talking from the story's antagonist as Veritas.

 

Shepard is the hero of the story, this is part of what makes him (you) so astonishing. You succeed where others fail. You came back from the dead for goodness sake.

 

You don't have to believe for it to be true. Its lore fact. Your confidence is born of ignorance, to quote Sovereign. Or worst, absolute insanity. No other species for EONS, no other cycle has ever been able to defeat the reapers. But us? Oh, we're super special, brah. We'll beat them, no problem. We'll be the ones to discover a weakness we can exploit conventionally that no other cycle in the past billion years has discovered.

 

Was using greek really necessary?

 

Stopping Sovereign was hopeless

Reviving a corpse was hopeless

Returning from the Omega IV relay was hopeless.

Killing a Reaper on foot was hopeless

Peace between quarians and geth was hopeless.

 

Stopping Sovereign was not hopeless. Even the prothean VI tells you that. Sovereign, as powerful as it is, is still just a single reaper.

 

Reviving a corpse, especially one in Shepard's condition, should be hopeless. This 'enough resources brings back the dead' is as much 'space magic' as the crucible. Yet you'll criticize one while giving a pass to the other.

 

Returning from the Omega relay was not hopeless, as we discovered from the IFF. It was just extremely bleak. Not the same thing.

 

Technically Shepard didn't destroy it. He just painted the target while rolling past beams. The quarian fleet are the ones who killed it. Shepard just pointed the gun(s).

 

The quarians and geth were not hopeless. If anything the revelations Legion brought forth about the geth/heretics was anything BUT hopeless. Only a shame the writers decide to abandon all that build up for relationship building and just make them go at war regardless come ME3.

 

 

 

But stopping the reapers with anything short of a scifi blood magic ritual was hopeless?  

 

Please refrain from this strawman tactic, thank you.

 

Defeating the reapers  CONVENTIONALLY was hopeless. That doesn't mean we need scifi blood magic ritual. I'm not defending the method for which the crucible functions. I don't actually like the way they handed the crucible.
 

 

However they handwave it.  Time dilation is effectively ignored.  As both the galaxy as a whole and the Reapers use Mass Effect technology for their FTL travel.  Therefore, the Reapers could have flown into the galaxy at any time and lay waste to it.  The dark space relay was never needed.

 

 

It isn't ignored. It's solved. Mass effect removes the problem. Ignored would mean they never brought it up or mentioned it. They explicitly point out why it isn't a problem, and its because of the reaper's technology. Again, you spend so much time analyzing the endings and their implications/ramifications yet YOU'RE the one who is handwaving this. Apply a fraction of that hate-fueled analyzing effort to the mass effect and its implications then maybe you'll come to realize how significant they are to improving the harvest efficiency.

 

Also, as I've explicitly stated several times now, it was never a matter of them NEEDING the relays. Its a matter of increasing efficiency.
 

 

Except rushing through as a fleet would take only a couple of years, while Saren was kicking around with Sovereign for about 20 (going by "Revelation")  If it would have taken centuries or more for them to come back, sure, but the whole Saren plot now seems pointless.  Especially since once they arrived they ignored the Citadel right up until they realized Shepard had the Crucible plans.

 

 

Javik:  They are immortal.  We are not.  They see time as an illusion.  We are trapped by its limitations.

 

Why risk losing even a single reaper when you can use the other, lesser beings as tools to serve your purpose. I'd say this argument of yours is misplaced. The starbrat makes the Saren plot far more irrelevant and pointless than this does.

 

 

You'll find I have few good things to say about ME2 either.  And sadly, their failures further weakened ME1.  

 

Oh I'm sure you do, especially when someone argues otherwise. That doesn't change the observation that practically every one of your posts on this forum is purposely designed to ridicule or complain about ME3 or, more typically, the ending. I can't seriously be the only one who's picked up on that by now.

 

 

I have played through the trilogy.  I lost count of the number of time I played ME1.  So I guess that means I wasn't paying attention.  I must be stupid and overly sensitive like that.
 

 

Considering what ME3 did to you, yeah, seems that way. Though 'idiot' is perhaps a bit harsh. 'Blind' or 'ignorant' would be better, imo.

 

 

And sorry, but if a story demands "You must do something awful in order to beat the Big bad"  I want, nay demand a d@mn good explanation for why it must be. explanation.  I will not "just go with it" especially if the writers have been encouraging me to invest in the story and characters for five years.  hte setup better be fracking flawless.  Not tacked on at the last minute due to some misguided desire for "feelz"  

 

I didn't say "just go with it" in relation to the ending. This may surprise you but I'm not really a fan of the ending. I don't hate it as vehemently as you, nor do I impose SUBJECTIVE perceptive as being objectively true, but I'm not thrilled by it either.

 

 

 

Because on the contrary of making us seem insignificant, the first two games showed we were potentially a threat.  The Reapers' plans were foiled time and again by the hairless ape called Shepard. The whole trilogy kept telling us "we will find a way" "There is always hope"  "nothing is inevitable"  

ANd again, why does conventionally always get boiled down to "headlong charge"?  Why is it always space magic or gtfo?

 

No one said it had to be space magic. Nor did anyone say conventional means 'headlong charge'. Also, we did find a way and there is hope with the unconventional Crucible. There was never any hope for a conventional victory, that doesn't mean the player couldn't have hope for something else. I know I was fully expecting Shepard to somehow, against all odds, discover some kind of device thats far beyond our understanding that somehow turns the tide of battle in ways we never could. That doesn't mean I'm happy with the way that device functions but the general idea of it should had been expected.

 

Though I suppose your interpretation of what classifies as conventional and unconventional has some effect here. The crucible, on principle, is unconventional to me. Even if it did what Vazgen suggested and blew up reapers with one blast it would still be an unconventional weapon - though not nearly as effective as what we have now obviously.

[Iakus]

Part right, mostly strawman. I was specifically talking about how the reapers don't immediately wipe us out and why the game is a game at all rather than just a "game over" screen expressing how badly we lost and how we should buy DLC to learn more about how much we lost. You're bringing in elements that weren't part of my argument when I made that statement and have no relevance to it.

 

If you went through the entire trilogy with this same level of scrunity where you over-anaylze every detail you'll find a lot of things to complain about. The trilogy is not a shining example of perfect and absolute logical writing. You're able to 'go with it' with the first two games, seemingly ( I don't see you constantly complaining about those, anyway) but refuse to give any leeway with ME3.

 

If you think my criticism of the Mass Effect series is limited to ME3, then you should have been here around 2010-11.  You'll find I was not much kinder to ME2.

 

And I fail to see how it's a strawman to point out that you are willing to give the OP nature of the Reapers a pass, yet say "conventional victory" (whatever that means) is somehow unreasonable.  The whole situation is unreasonable, so why not provide an ending that a lot of people might actually enjoy?

 

 

 

Shepard is the hero of the story, this is part of what makes him (you) so astonishing. You succeed where others fail. You came back from the dead for goodness sake.

You don't have to believe for it to be true. Its lore fact. Your confidence is born of ignorance, to quote Sovereign. Or worst, absolute insanity. No other species for EONS, no other cycle has ever been able to defeat the reapers. But us? Oh, we're super special, brah. We'll beat them, no problem. We'll be the ones to discover a weakness we can exploit conventionally that no other cycle in the past billion years has discovered.

Was using greek really necessary?

 

 

As you said, Shepard is the hero of the story.  Shepard is the player character.  That makes Shepard special by default.  Otherwise "Critical Mission Failure" as soon as the Reapers hit Earth.  No point in continuing the story.  It's a lore fact.  The Reapers are unbeatable. 

 

And it was Latin, not Greek.

 

 

 

Stopping Sovereign was not hopeless. Even the prothean VI tells you that. Sovereign, as powerful as it is, is still just a single reaper.
Reviving a corpse, especially one in Shepard's condition, should be hopeless. This 'enough resources brings back the dead' is as much 'space magic' as the crucible. Yet you'll criticize one while giving a pass to the other.
Returning from the Omega relay was not hopeless, as we discovered from the IFF. It was just extremely bleak. Not the same thing.
Technically Shepard didn't destroy it. He just painted the target while rolling past beams. The quarian fleet are the ones who killed it. Shepard just pointed the gun(s).
The quarians and geth were not hopeless. If anything the revelations Legion brought forth about the geth/heretics was anything BUT hopeless. Only a shame the writers decide to abandon all that build up for relationship building and just make them go at war regardless come ME3.
Please refrain from this strawman tactic, thank you.

 

Well according to Sovereign, they are eternal, no beginning or ending,  before him we are nothing, blah blah blah.  Arrow in the face.

 

And if you think I have ever given the Lazarus Project a pass, you really don't know me.      

 

As for the Omega IV relay:

 

Thane: Attacking the Collectors would mean passing through the Omega IV relay.  No ship has ever returned from doing so

Shepard: They told me it was impossible to get to Ilos too

Thane:  A fair point.

 

So yeah, pretty much the same thing.  At least at the start.

 

I was also referring to the Reaper on Tuchanka.   But if you want to give the credit to Kalros for that I guess I can't stop you.

 

If the game repeatedly tells you "X is impossible" then lets Shepard accomplish it anyway, it's not strawmanning to call them on it.

 

Besides which I have yet to hear what you consider "conventional"

 

 

 

It isn't ignored. It's solved. Mass effect removes the problem. Ignored would mean they never brought it up or mentioned it. They explicitly point out why it isn't a problem, and its because of the reaper's technology. Again, you spend so much time analyzing the endings and their implications/ramifications yet YOU'RE the one who is handwaving this. Apply a fraction of that hate-fueled analyzing effort to the mass effect and its implications then maybe you'll come to realize how significant they are to improving the harvest efficiency.
Also, as I've explicitly stated several times now, it was never a matter of them NEEDING the relays. Its a matter of increasing efficiency.

Which again, begs the question "Why didn't they hit the Citadel right away and take over the entire network.  Just like every single cycle before?  They'd be unlikely to lose a single ship, since they'd be doing the "divide and conquer" thing they've done every time.  

 

Or should we just "go with it"?

 

 

Oh I'm sure you do, especially when someone argues otherwise. That doesn't change the observation that practically every one of your posts on this forum is purposely designed to ridicule or complain about ME3 or, more typically, the ending. I can't seriously be the only one who's picked up on that by now.

This is the ME3 board.  Not ME2.  Check out the ME2 boards prior to 2012 and see what I had to say about ME2.  Particularly the Lazarus Project, Horizon, ME1 characters in general, the main story in general, and Cerberus.

 

 

Considering what ME3 did to you, yeah, seems that way. Though 'idiot' is perhaps a bit harsh. 'Blind' or 'ignorant' would be better, imo.

I take comfort in not being alone in my blind ignorance, then.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
No one said it had to be space magic. Nor did anyone say conventional means 'headlong charge'. Also, we did find a way and there is hope with the unconventional Crucible. There was never any hope for a conventional victory, that doesn't mean the player couldn't have hope for something else. I know I was fully expecting Shepard to somehow, against all odds, discover some kind of device thats far beyond our understanding that somehow turns the tide of battle in ways we never could. That doesn't mean I'm happy with the way that device functions but the general idea of it should had been expected.
Though I suppose your interpretation of what classifies as conventional and unconventional has some effect here. The crucible, on principle, is unconventional to me. Even if it did what Vazgen suggested and blew up reapers with one blast it would still be an unconventional weapon - though not nearly as effective as what we have now obviously.

 

"Conventional" is pitting strength against strength.  Throwing our fleets against the Reapers.  That's obviously not going to work.

 

"Unconventional" warfare would be finding ways to negate the Reapers' strengths:  bringing down their barriers, or creating weapons that could circumvent them, blocking or reversing indoctrination, seizing control of their husk units or exploiting their connections to them, jamming communication between the Reapers,  Weakening them to the point where the playing field is more level.

[Alamar2078]

I imagine that in ME1 I must have been the only one to think that Sovereign was "monologuing" about how feeble we are compared to him ; how inevitable our defeat is ; how the galaxy shall soon be theirs ; etc. Speeches of that nature are a staple for this and many other genres .... it just so happens that this time [in hindsight] it was pretty much true.

[Valmar]

 

And I fail to see how it's a strawman to point out that you are willing to give the OP nature of the Reapers a pass, yet say "conventional victory" (whatever that means) is somehow unreasonable.  The whole situation is unreasonable, so why not provide an ending that a lot of people might actually enjoy?

 

When I said 'just go with it' I was specifically talking about the reaper's OP nature. You in turn responded replying that my stance was "just go with space magic." That wasn't at all my stance on it but by wording it the way you did you made it sound like that was what I was saying, thus making your refute seem more crushing. Is that not the very definition of strawman?

 

 

Conventionally victory was set up as a impossibility since the first game. They could had still done it, of course, but it would contradict everything up until that point. Something the game does enough of as-is. Coincidentally I'm not so sure its specifically the crucible people took such offense to in the ending, generally speaking. The crucible was in ME3 long before the actual ending came about. Its the execution, imo, that people disliked.

 

 

As you said, Shepard is the hero of the story.  Shepard is the player character.  That makes Shepard special by default.  Otherwise "Critical Mission Failure" as soon as the Reapers hit Earth.  No point in continuing the story.  It's a lore fact.  The Reapers are unbeatable. 

 

And it was Latin, not Greek.

 

 

As I also said though this is a video game. Suspension of belief is required for it to be a game. Hence why I said we're expected to "just go with it" in this regard. Because for the story to remain absolutely logical and consistent for the entire trilogy we would have no game, only a failure-state. The reapers since day one have been set up to be unbeatable through conventional means. Which, in turn, is why I critize you singling out ME3 for having a 'problem' in the story that has been in the trilogy since day one. 

 

Sentiment remains the same. The confusion of the language origins only adds to my initial point of it being unnecessary.

 

 

Well according to Sovereign, they are eternal, no beginning or ending,  before him we are nothing, blah blah blah.  Arrow in the face.

 

And if you think I have ever given the Lazarus Project a pass, you really don't know me.      

 

As for the Omega IV relay:

 

Thane: Attacking the Collectors would mean passing through the Omega IV relay.  No ship has ever returned from doing so

Shepard: They told me it was impossible to get to Ilos too

Thane:  A fair point.

 

So yeah, pretty much the same thing.  At least at the start.

 

I was also referring to the Reaper on Tuchanka.   But if you want to give the credit to Kalros for that I guess I can't stop you.

 

If the game repeatedly tells you "X is impossible" then lets Shepard accomplish it anyway, it's not strawmanning to call them on it.

 

Besides which I have yet to hear what you consider "conventional"

 

Another case of "go with it." I don't believe we were ever meant to take it so literally. Everything has a beginning. It was in relation to us. In relation to us they essentially are eternal with no beginning or end. They're billions of years old, way off the scale of what most organics can comprehend. I doubt even the Asari could truly comprehend what it means to exist for billions of years. Relative to us they might as well not have a beginning. The only species alive that can truly relate to them is the immortal Leviathans that are actually OLDER.

 

Like I specifically said in my last post it was hopeless until the IFF. The Thane conversation does nothing but reinforce that.

 

It was technically Kalros. Shepard just activated a few hammers that summoned her. If she had not come do you really think he'd be able to take it out on foot personally? I know Shepard has a habit of punching and headbutting things bigger than him but a reaper is a bit of a stretch. I'd probably play out similar to the Cerberus goons fighting Joker on the Citadel.

 

It tells us conventional victory of the reapers was impossible for us - that doesn't mean we should expect failure. Did anyone really play ME3 expecting it to just be a failure without victory? We all expected there to be SOMETHING that allows us to defeat them. Hence the crucible which proves we can beat them. Just not through conventional means. Nearly everything 'impossible' Shepard accomplishes is only impossible until he discovers a way to do it. Impossible to survive Omega 4 relay. Finds IFF. Impossible to stop the reapers. Finds Crucible. Theres nothing to really to call out here.

 

Btw you weren't using a strawman for "calling out" Bioware. You were using it by suggesting that my arguement was that sci-fi magic was the only option. It's  kinda ironic that even this is strawman, you're making it seem like my claim of strawman was set to something it wasn't. Pretty sly.

Conventional: based on or in accordance with what is generally done or believed.

 

Which again, begs the question "Why didn't they hit the Citadel right away and take over the entire network.  Just like every single cycle before?  They'd be unlikely to lose a single ship, since they'd be doing the "divide and conquer" thing they've done every time.  

 

Or should we just "go with it"?

 

There are explanations one can come up with for that. They're all headcanon since the game never addresses it but the fact that headcanon can explain it away is a sign that its not a impossible problem to solve.

 

Yes, we should go with it. Its a game, we're not meant to over-analyze every detail. If they had just taken the citadel like they usually do then there would be no game to play. I can't imagine anyone would appreciate if the game was just a screen telling us we lost. This is specifically the thing I was saying we should 'go with'. This is first time you've used my "go with it" statement in the proper context - appreciated.

 

Though just to make it clear, just in case there is confusion - there is no doubt that reapers use the citadel to isolate and take over the galaxy in their harvesting plan. It isn't like its my speculation that its what they use it for - its explicitly stated in the lore. The game may be inconsistent with this but it doesn't make it any less lore. The prothean VI in the first game and Javik both make it very clear the important role the citadel plays in the harvest.

 

 

This is the ME3 board.  Not ME2.  Check out the ME2 boards prior to 2012 and see what I had to say about ME2.  Particularly the Lazarus Project, Horizon, ME1 characters in general, the main story in general, and Cerberus.
 

 

Fair enough. However the sentiment of my initial accusation still remains. You single out flaws in ME3 as if ME3 is the sole culprit of them rather than being an issue that has been in the trilogy from day one. Is it really fair to say "ME3 is bad because of X" if X is something that was in the trilogy since day 1? That doesn't mean X is suddenly good - it may still infact be an issue . It still seems unfair, imo, to single out one specific game in the trilogy and complain about it having a problem thats been consistent in the trilogy since the first day.

 

 

I take comfort in not being alone in my blind ignorance, then.

 

 

Indeed. Its a sad and unfortunate detail that so much of the hate garnered towards ME3 specifically comes from blind ignorance of the story.
 

 

"Conventional" is pitting strength against strength.  Throwing our fleets against the Reapers.  That's obviously not going to work.

 

"Unconventional" warfare would be finding ways to negate the Reapers' strengths:  bringing down their barriers, or creating weapons that could circumvent them, blocking or reversing indoctrination, seizing control of their husk units or exploiting their connections to them, jamming communication between the Reapers,  Weakening them to the point where the playing field is more level.

 

So now you agree conventional victory is impossible? Well, glad we settled that dispute.

 

I will point out though at least now I have a better idea who you were talking about when you accused us for saying conventional = headlong charge.

 

Before:

"ANd again, why does conventionally always get boiled down to "headlong charge"? "

 

" It's only in ME3 that we get "THE REAPERS CAN'T BE BEATEN CONVENTIONALLY!!! OH NOEES!!!" "

 

"So we're supposed to just "go with it" that the Reapers suffer terminal stupidity in invading the galaxy, and the outright space magic that is the Crucible, but a more conventional victory is somehow unrealistic?"

 

"And I fail to see how it's a strawman to point out that you are willing to give the OP nature of the Reapers a pass, yet say "conventional victory" (whatever that means) is somehow unreasonable."

 

Now:

""Conventional" is pitting strength against strength.  Throwing our fleets against the Reapers.  That's obviously not going to work."

 

 

 

Hm... So now you're saying conventional victory obviously won't work (what we've been saying from the start) even after all that talk about "but why not, why not, boo crucible boo ending". So it wasn't really the conventional vs unconventional victory you were upset about. You were just angry at the way the crucible worked (space magic) and was using this as an excuse to complain about it some more. Fair enough, I don't like the way they handled it either, but does make this little back-and-forth redundant. 

 

 

 

I imagine that in ME1 I must have been the only one to think that Sovereign was "monologuing" about how feeble we are compared to him ; how inevitable our defeat is ; how the galaxy shall soon be theirs ; etc. Speeches of that nature are a staple for this and many other genres .... it just so happens that this time [in hindsight] it was pretty much true.

 

Actually I felt similar. I just gave it more validity then others, apparently. I didn't take it literally when it said it was without beginning or end - but I did take away the notion that its REALLY old and REALLY powerful. Given that the cycle has been going on eons and every cycle has been effectively wiped out by the reapers I was willing to concede that its boasting wasn't complete hubris, though. Not to mention the ominous visions from the prothean artifact at the start of the game.