185 réponses à ce sujet

[Alamar2078]

The question is though why would the Reapers allow a new Crucible to be built and connected to the Citadel??  Why are the Reapers choosing not to defend themselves?  Did the information that Liara spread out give the new species enough information that they didn't need the Citadel??  It may seem odd but in terms of a refusal scenario these sort of questions are interesting.

[von uber]

It makes no sense for the catalyst to offer a choice anyway really.
Any other thing it decides to do instead of bringing shep up the platform is a reaper win, especially given the chance of a shep choosing destroy and thus killing the reapers completely.

But then the whole of me (especially the third) relies on people being stupid.

[Valmar]

The question is though why would the Reapers allow a new Crucible to be built and connected to the Citadel??  Why are the Reapers choosing not to defend themselves?  Did the information that Liara spread out give the new species enough information that they didn't need the Citadel??  It may seem odd but in terms of a refusal scenario these sort of questions are interesting.

 

If the cycles found the information early enough and acted upon it then its possible they built the crucible and used it before the reapers ever arrived. Remember the only reason we're having to deal with the reaper madness is because our politicians decided, in their infinite wisdom, to do jack squat with the warnings and wait until the very last minute before doing anything. The next cycle could have built the crucible and used it while the reapers were still in darkspace.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

It makes no sense for the catalyst to offer a choice anyway really.

Sure it does.

[Valmar]

Sure it does.

 

Care to elaborate on that?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Care to elaborate on that?

The concept of the war/resistance and winning or losing it has no meaning to the Catalyst. All that matters to it is looking for the best solution to its task, and it sees that organics have proven they can save themselves without its help... by virtue of having built a weapon that can neutralize the threat of overwhelmingly-powerful AI (one way or another).

[ImaginaryMatter]

The concept of the war/resistance and winning or losing it has no meaning to the Catalyst. All that matters to it is looking for the best solution to its task, and it sees that organics have proven they can save themselves without its help... by virtue of having built a weapon that can neutralize the threat of overwhelmingly-powerful AI (one way or another).

 

That doesn't seem to be the case. The Catalyst admits in talking about the Destroy option that with the destruction of the Reapers Synthetics will come back and 'chaos' will resume. If it was looking for an actual solution the only Crucible option that really accomplishes that task is Synthesis, if it wanted to enact a better solution it would do everything in it's power to activate Synthesis.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

That doesn't seem to be the case. The Catalyst admits in talking about the Destroy option that with the destruction of the Reapers Synthetics will come back and 'chaos' will resume. If it was looking for an actual solution the only Crucible option that really accomplishes that task is Synthesis, if it wanted to enact a better solution it would do everything in it's power to activate Synthesis.

And the word "chaos" means something entirely different from "wiped out."

The Catalyst did not believe there was a chance for organics before the Crucible docks. After it, he does, so he accepts Destroy (even if not completely satisfied with it).

[ImaginaryMatter]

And the word "chaos" means something entirely different from "wiped out."

The Catalyst did not believe there was a chance for organics before the Crucible docks. After it, he does, so he accepts Destroy (even if not completely satisfied with it).

 

Extinction though is the result of 'chaos'. The Crucible alters variables, whatever that means, but it context it seems to be that it introduces solutions that the Catalyst wasn't able to implement before. It doesn't say anything about the Crucible affecting their relationship in general. Plus, a super weapon as some sort of sign that organics have advanced doesn't match up with it's previous statements. Synthetics surpass their creators, which means in time they'll surpass the super weapon as well.

[Iakus]

And the word "chaos" means something entirely different from "wiped out."

The Catalyst did not believe there was a chance for organics before the Crucible docks. After it, he does, so he accepts Destroy (even if not completely satisfied with it).

Which makes absolutely no sense, given Shepard couldn't activate the Crucible, being passed out on the floor without access to the Magic Space Elevator.  So the Harvest could (and does in Refuse) proceed unimpeded.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Extinction though is the result of 'chaos'. The Crucible alters variables, whatever that means, but it context it seems to be that it introduces solutions that the Catalyst wasn't able to implement before. It doesn't say anything about the Crucible affecting their relationship in general. Plus, a super weapon as some sort of sign that organics have advanced doesn't match up with it's previous statements. Synthetics surpass their creators, which means in time they'll surpass the super weapon as well.

 

 

Except the Reapers had surpassed organics long ago, and they were stopped by this cycle's much more primitive organics, so the result of ongoing conflict between organic and more-advanced synthetic lifeforms may not lead to organics' extinction as was previously believed. Instead, organics may survive and eventually evolve to reach the ideal he believes will eradicate the issue entirely. Since there's reasonable doubt, he backs off.

 

 

 

 

Which makes absolutely no sense, given Shepard couldn't activate the Crucible, being passed out on the floor without access to the Magic Space Elevator.  So the Harvest could (and does in Refuse) proceed unimpeded.

 

Could be that the Crucible was what triggered the elevator, not the Catalyst, or that it did something to get the Catalyst to cooperate.

 

Though yes, it is (another) conclusion he sort of leaped to since Shepard can Refuse, but at least this time the error works in our favor.

[CaIIisto]

If the cycles found the information early enough and acted upon it then its possible they built the crucible and used it before the reapers ever arrived. Remember the only reason we're having to deal with the reaper madness is because our politicians decided, in their infinite wisdom, to do jack squat with the warnings and wait until the very last minute before doing anything. The next cycle could have built the crucible and used it while the reapers were still in darkspace.

That was my first thought, but it discounts the extreme likelihood that the Reapers would leave a vanguard behind, a la Sovereign, when they re-entered dark space from this cycle. The first hint of a Crucible-style device being built and it would surely be sending a flare up.

It DOES seem as though the subsequent cycle 'won' without the need to directly engage the Reapers, I Just have no idea how they managed to do it!

[Kabooooom]

No. According to Bioware we could have build a million dreadnought armada and still lost.

We needed the crucible because you can't kill a reaper conventionally because even dead reapers can indoctrinate. Reaper tech indoctrinates. There would be a mess of dead reapers that need clean up. Soon the clean up teams would be indoctrinated, and would be turning our own ships against us. We were screwed.

The message of the story was that technology is evil unless it is controlled by a higher power.

Eh, not necessarily. We know that with a large enough number of ships and focused firepower, a reaper can be brought down. It therefore stands to reason that with a large enough fleet, ALL Reapers could be defeated.

However, that fleet would be so large that it would dwarf the combined fleet of all the galaxies races. So, implausible.

That said, I once had the thought that the best chance of defeating the Reapers with a fleet would be via utilizing the Geth. How? Go off the relay network into uncharted space deliberately. Most star systems have raw resources for construction. Have the Geth build a massive armada of dreadnoughts over the course of decades. They don't sleep, they don't eat, they don't require garden worlds and the Reapers would have no idea where to look. Then return with enough firepower to defeat them.

Since a conventional war against the Reapers can last centuries - ironically, the unique capabilities of synthetic life seems particularly well suited to defeat them.

...provided they don't get hacked again. Then everyone is triple screwed.

[themikefest]

Who knows how the reapers were stopped in the next cycle? 

 

Did the reapers repair the Citadel before going back to darkspece so they could use it in the next cycle,like always? Or did they just fly in like in our cycle? If they did repair the Citadel, I would say using the crucible would be very hard to do since the reapers would most likely have the Citadel guarded since they were aware of what our cycle tried to do, but failed. Thanks for that Shepard.

 

Does using the crucible reach darkspace as well if it was used while they were still in darkspace? Don't know. When the Normandy escapes the blast area, the galaxy map shows the beam doing its thing within the limits of the galaxy and is not seen going into darkspace.

 

If they did use the crucible, what parts did they add to it? Did they add a part that doesn't damage the relays? Or maybe they did add a part that can send the beam of magic to reach the reapers in darkspace. Thats possible. 

 

Is it possible they beat them conventionally? Sure. I would be curious how they went about doing it. Its also possible they used ideas that were tried in previous cycles, but applied in a different way that got better results. Who knows?

 

I will go with my theory. They built the crucible long before the reapers were scheduled to show up and kept it in a safe location until needed. Since the next cycle had no idea exactly when they show up, they placed drones at each relay in the galaxy to give some warning of when and where the reaper enter the system. Once they learn they've entered the galaxy, they move the crucible to the citadel and use it before the reapers to any damage.  This theory only works if the reapers never fixed the citadel before leaving for darkspace in our cycle.

 

Lastly. The reapers most likely left one reaper to stay behind like Sovereign. Its possible that it would never know of the building of the crucible. The reapers in our cycle didn't know we were building it until very late in the game.

 

All this is guesswork on my part.

[Vazgen]

Depending on player choices, the Crucible can have an interferometric array.

Normally interferometric arrays are used to analyze planetary landmasses, or to determine the astrophysical properties of stellar systems. The powerful array salvaged from the Hercules system can be used for something much more ambitious: the Crucible tunes into the mass relays' command switches. Installing the interferometric array into the Crucible's systems results in a real-time map of the entire galaxy, including the position of each and every Reaper in the Milky Way.

If the Reapers are in dark space and the Crucible finds them it only needs to send the energy through one relay - the Citadel. And seeing how it will be completely undamaged, the damage to the Citadel and dark space relay would be minimal or even non-existent.

[Iakus]

 

 

Could be that the Crucible was what triggered the elevator, not the Catalyst, or that it did something to get the Catalyst to cooperate.

 

Though yes, it is (another) conclusion he sort of leaped to since Shepard can Refuse, but at least this time the error works in our favor.

 

Well, as headcanon goes, that's pretty creative.  Still doesn't answer why it would be set up to trigger at that moment.  And in that spot, since Shepard had to crawl a fair distance just to pass out in the exact right place.

 

And yeah it does demonstrate the complete lack of agency of this cycle.  The Reapers were stopped not due to human ingenuity, turian discipline, krogan strength, or asari sexiness.  It was the ability to follow instructions.  First the Prothean plans for the Crucible, then the Catalyst's instructions on activating it.  If they can't do as they're told, the "SO BE IT!!!" they need to be harvested, try again next cycle.

[Alamar2078]

To a large degree I would be OK if [initially] fortune favored our cycle because the Protheans gave us a leg up to stop the Reapers from blind-siding everyone and WFT PWNING everyone.

 

However once those examples of good fortune are done though I would [agree with you and] argue that a better way to construct the story would be for the protagonists to have a more active role in saving themselves.  That active role may have been levering technology from "the conduit" ; tests on the remains of Sovereign ; salvaging derelict Reapers ; information gathering from the collector base ; meeting Leviathan in ME2 ; finding out about the Catalyst ; finding the Klendagon gun ; etc.

 

While I don't believe a strictly brute force victory would be preferable we'd at least have some of the tools to engineer an unconventional victory ; a standoff ; or something other than what we got.

[themikefest]

Another refusal scenario. The Citadel itself.

 

The Catalyst says the Citadel is its home and it controls the reapers. Good to know. If the player speaks with Barla Von in ME1, he mentions the Citadel and its engines. I have no idea where the engines are located, but if Shepard some how fly the Citadel into the sun, it might stop the reapers from their harvest. They may end up flying back to darkspace never to be heard or seen ever again. Or they just continue with the harvest. Another thing is that it may weaken the reapers to the point the allied fleets can defeat them easily.

 

Of course the people on the Citadel would die. It would be a massive task to try and evacuate the Citadel before flying it in the sun. if that were possible.

 

The other thing is, would blowing up the Citadel tower and the chamber or just the chamber iteself be enough instead of flying the Citadel into the sun. I'm sure it would take a lot to blow up the tower. Even if that was possible, it still doesn't guarantee the reapers would stop. Don't know till you try. 

 

 

Another scenario could be the fleets attack Harbinger. Maybe with Harbinger destroyed, the reapers would leave since they no longer have a leader to give them direction.

[Alamar2078]

As a refusal ending if you can [somehow] hack the Reaper controlling AI, damage its console, jam communications, etc. as a result psychically shocking the Reapers similar to what happened to Sovereign.  I know that theoretically that attack vector was supposed to have been patched but uninstalling the patch would be handy in that event

[Iakus]

Refusal Ending:  Timed mission where you have to locate the Catalyst's hard drive and reformat it.

[Alamar2078]

Or introduce the AI hardware to Cain [or fly it into the sun] or whatever other permutation may be somewhat enjoyable.

[Vortex13]

Eh, not necessarily. We know that with a large enough number of ships and focused firepower, a reaper can be brought down. It therefore stands to reason that with a large enough fleet, ALL Reapers could be defeated.

However, that fleet would be so large that it would dwarf the combined fleet of all the galaxies races. So, implausible.

That said, I once had the thought that the best chance of defeating the Reapers with a fleet would be via utilizing the Geth. How? Go off the relay network into uncharted space deliberately. Most star systems have raw resources for construction. Have the Geth build a massive armada of dreadnoughts over the course of decades. They don't sleep, they don't eat, they don't require garden worlds and the Reapers would have no idea where to look. Then return with enough firepower to defeat them.

Since a conventional war against the Reapers can last centuries - ironically, the unique capabilities of synthetic life seems particularly well suited to defeat them.

...provided they don't get hacked again. Then everyone is triple screwed.

 

 

I would add the Rachni (provided that the player hasn't killed the queen in ME 1) to that Geth Armada, if you are looking for a reliable supply of ground troops that come pre-equiped with their own armor and weapons, and can be combat capable within a matter of weeks.

 

For all of the Reapers' technological advancement, their kinetic barriers will not stop acid or claw attacks and their armor is no more advanced than the current cycle's counterparts; and Rachni troops are more than capable of taking on emplaced turrets and tanks with spit and melee attacks. 

 

The Rachni don't need a garden world to live on, nor do they need any substantial infrastructure to set up a hive; in fact there is at least one planet that Shepard can fight them on in ME 1 that is completely hazardous to human/turian/asari/salarian life (a level 1 atmosphere hazard I believe) but has no adverse affects on the Rachni soldiers. Add on the fact that the Rachni Queen is very near if not completely immune to the effects of indoctrination, and that the Rachni have a built-in QEC and you have a fighting force perfect for guerrilla style combat, as well as living cut off from supply lines.

 

 

Obviously, the Rachni would be vulnerable to their Queen being captured again, but if they can avoid detection like their Geth allies then there is no reason to believe that they wouldn't be able to survive and build up forces.

[Gambit458]

It did not take a fleet to kill a reaper. The game had it setup for the SR1 to take the kill shot. A pint size frigate killing a reaper, while the other ships couldn't do any damage even after the shields were taken down. What a joke.

 

The reaper on Rannoch was dead after being shot and fell on its side, but no, the thing is able to get back on its legs and face Shepard. What makes the scenario hilarious, is that each time the reaper is hit by the Quarian fleet, it remains on its feet whereas, it fell over the first time it was shot. That scene was only done so we can see Shepard get up close and personal with the reaper. It was done for the cool crap effect. Besides that, it only took about 5 ships from the fleet to destroy it. If you watch closely, its doors weren't even opened to use its laser when it got hit and knocked on its side the first time. 

 

The same can said about the reaper in London. There was no reason for the Thannix missle crap. There was enough ordance to take it down after the Thannix missles hit the thing, so there was no need for those missles. They didn't need to hit the firing chamber of the reaper as seen with the one on Rannoch. It was all about the cool crap effect.

 

They made the reapers look strong by having everyone else look weak and stupid. Look what happened on Tuchanka. Why did the Turian fighters not fire on the reaper from behind to avoid taking any damage? The same thing happened in ME1. Had the ships fired on Sovereign from the back instead being in front of it, the losses would not be as bad. But no, we needed to hear Hackett say, Negative. Take down that monster no matter the cost.  

 

Yes the reapers can be defeated. We just had to use the giant microphone. Bioware figure that Shepards dancing couldn't defeat them, so they wanted her/him to sing them to death, but at the last minute they decided to bring in the Larry, Curly and Moe endings instead. Well destroy is good, so they just needed Larry and Curly for the other 2 endings

 

No matter what ems the player had, the reapers would win if Shepard refuses. 

 

I would like to know the number of reapers. Someone posted that it couold be as high as 20 000 Capitals ships. I find that hard to believe, since the largest amount of them were at Earth. I believe someone counted about 110 surrounding Earth. Of course I have no idea how many are on Earth, but still. I wouldn't be surprised if there are reapers that are still in dark space that weren't needed

Idk if anyone's answered this yet because I don't wanna go through all 6 pages however there's a few errors in what you've said. The Reapers have weak spots and yes the ships were doing damage after Sovereign's shields were down. All the Normandy did was take the final blow. The Reaper on Rannoch wasn't dead, it was neutralized for the moment and that was only because they hit it in the firing chamber which Shepard comments on. There's things in the codex about the Reapers and their mobility but sure..Guess it doesn't make sense why they don't attack from behind, but then again the firing chamber isn't on their backside is it? 

 

Anyways, what always got me about the refusal is why not just destroy the Catalyst? Leviathan tells you what the Catalyst is and as Shepard says in ME 1.."you're just a machine and machines can be broken." Although it'd be taking it to the extreme, just blow up the whole Citadel if you had to. 

[themikefest]

Idk if anyone's answered this yet because I don't wanna go through all 6 pages however there's a few errors in what you've said. The Reapers have weak spots and yes the ships were doing damage after Sovereign's shields were down. All the Normandy did was take the final blow. The Reaper on Rannoch wasn't dead, it was neutralized for the moment and that was only because they hit it in the firing chamber which Shepard comments on. There's things in the codex about the Reapers and their mobility but sure..Guess it doesn't make sense why they don't attack from behind, but then again the firing chamber isn't on their backside is it? 

 

Anyways, what always got me about the refusal is why not just destroy the Catalyst? Leviathan tells you what the Catalyst is and as Shepard says in ME 1.."you're just a machine and machines can be broken." Although it'd be taking it to the extreme, just blow up the whole Citadel if you had to. 

Even after the shields were down, Sovereign still took no damage even with the Alliance ships firing at it. It only took damage when the SR1 fired at it along with the 2 fighters. 

 

The reaper was not hit in the firing chamber regardless of what Shepard says. The video shows it being hit before the doors were opened to use its laser

 

Why didn't the reaper fall over like it did the first time? Again. It was only done for the cool crap effect and to have Shepard shown being up close and personal with it.

 

What does the firing chamber have to do with their backside?

[Valmar]

Anyways, what always got me about the refusal is why not just destroy the Catalyst? Leviathan tells you what the Catalyst is and as Shepard says in ME 1.."you're just a machine and machines can be broken." Although it'd be taking it to the extreme, just blow up the whole Citadel if you had to. 

 

Confidence born from ignorance.

 

 

What does the firing chamber have to do with their backside?

 

I think what he's saying is that because their weak point is the firing laser, which is in the front, attacking from behind wouldn't be very effective.