I think what he's saying is that because their weak point is the firing laser, which is in the front, attacking from behind wouldn't be very effective.
Why wouldn't attacking from behind be effective? It worked for the Turains during the Battle of Palaven. The firng chamber may be a weak point, but that wasn't the case when it was fired upon on Rannoch before Shepard faced the thing on foot
I'm not saying it wouldn't be. I was just clarifying what I felt he meant by that statement with the context of the rest of his post.
Even after the shields were down, Sovereign still took no damage even with the Alliance ships firing at it. It only took damage when the SR1 fired at it along with the 2 fighters.
The reaper was not hit in the firing chamber regardless of what Shepard says. The video shows it being hit before the doors were opened to use its laser
Why didn't the reaper fall over like it did the first time? Again. It was only done for the cool crap effect and to have Shepard shown being up close and personal with it.
What does the firing chamber have to do with their backside?
We see the ships fire at it but we don't actually see Sovereign when their shots connect. All we see is the final shot from the Normandy. Do remember that the Normandy is also a one-of-a-kind ship, not just any ole regular frigate
That "sword through the heart" if you will. The Reapers also differ in size and frame. I know what it shows in the scene, however it doesn't change the fact that their weakspot is the firing chamber. Not sure what they call it in the video game world but over in the comic book world..What happened about the firing chamber not being revealed when they fired would be PIS. Besides, what's the point of aiming that laser at the firing chamber when you're on foot if you could just attack them from the backside? You also kill a Reaper by hitting it in the firing chamber when you're on Earth and use the Cain. You criticize how they fight the Reapers yet forget that the Reapers also set all the races on their paths in terms of technology. Obviously the Reapers are going to appear strong when they were on their designated paths for them and didn't even know it. All their weapons, fleets, and technology? All allowed by the Reapers. I was doing some googling and like how this one guy explained it
"The Reapers as it turned out, had been carefully guiding the development path of most, if not all, sentient space faring species of Mass Effect universe. This is how Reapers themselves are perfectly adapted to the role they assigned to themselves: to destroy eg 'harvest' all those species who have grown so far thanks to their silent guidance.
The analogy is perhaps, if someone has been studying jiu jitsu, thinking he's done so well, only to meet in the end an enemy who actually created jiu jitsu in first place and thus not only know perfectly how it works but also know perfectly how to beat it. Hmm sorry if jiu jitsu seems like poor analogy, but that's the idea.
This is how Reapers seem able to rather easily kill the space faring species like Proteans, Asari, Humans, etc, because they already know what toy guns they expect from us since they're the ones who gave us those toys in first place."
There were also codex entries on the Reapers and their weaknesses in the games, but no mention of their backside having a weakness
http://masseffect.wi...dex/The_Reapers
You make it sound like they could get to its backside easily. The codex did say something about not being able to get into too close range of the Reapers due to their capabilities. The Reapers also aren't stupid and I'm pretty sure if they see someone trying to attack them from behind then they're going to take countermeasures for it. Reapers can cover a lot of ground when they move. Those things are gigantic. Even if they were vulnerable in the back, they wouldn't be able to reach it unless they had the speed and the firepower to do so
@Valmar Well..It was a thought. The Catalyst is pretty much the CPU for the Reapers so rip the CPU out and see if they still function lol I don't see why Leviathan couldn't shut it off or provide more information on how to deal with it. It was their creation after all
We see the ships fire at it but we don't actually see Sovereign when their shots connect. All we see is the final shot from the Normandy. Do remember that the Normandy is also a one-of-a-kind ship, not just any ole regular frigate
In your post you said that Sovereign was taking damage after the shields went down. Now you're saying we don't actually see the shots connect. Sovereign isn't taking any damage. Just because the Normandy is one-of-a-kind ship doesn't mean they also have one-of-a-kind weapon that no ther ship would have.
That "sword through the heart" if you will. The Reapers also differ in size and frame. I know what it shows in the scene, however it doesn't change the fact that their weakspot is the firing chamber. Not sure what they call it in the video game world but over in the comic book world..What happened about the firing chamber not being revealed when they fired would be PIS. Besides, what's the point of aiming that laser at the firing chamber when you're on foot if you could just attack them from the backside? You also kill a Reaper by hitting it in the firing chamber when you're on Earth and use the Cain. You criticize how they fight the Reapers yet forget that the Reapers also set all the races on their paths in terms of technology. Obviously the Reapers are going to appear strong when they were on their designated paths for them and didn't even know it. All their weapons, fleets, and technology? All allowed by the Reapers. I was doing some googling and like how this one guy explained it
I never said the firng chamber was not a weak spot. Don't know what comic books have to do with anything or what PIS is.
Again the reason for Shepard painting the target was for the cool crap effect and to show Shepard get up close and personal with the reaper. The reaper was dead on the first barrage of rounds when it fell over. Again the whole thing was done for the cool crap effect.
The Thannix missiles weren't needed to take down the reaper in London. There was enough ordnance fired at the destroyer after the missles stuck the reaper to take it down without needing the Thannix missiles. Again, It was done for the cool crap effect.
The cain never hits the firing chamber
You say I forgot that the reapers set the path for all species to follow. Don't know why that was posted, but can you back up that remark?
As far as their backside being weak. The Turians were able to destroy several Capital ships by firing on their backside during the battle of Palaven
Pretty strange that they had to play "proton torpedo in the exhaust port" with the Reaper, given the codex tells us their barriers are far weaker on a planet's surface since they have to divert so much power towards mass effect fields to lower their mass to operate in a gravity.
@Lakus: Plot convenience theatre??
The other possibility is that the destroyer's shields WERE much weaker than normal but even the combined fleet couldn't punch through even weakened shields without the need to "hit the exhaust port". IIRC the Reapers were so OP that beating them with anything approaching brute force wasn't going to fly. I'm not saying they SHOULD have been written this way but IIRC they WERE written that way.
Note: I don't mind ignoring lore sometimes if it makes the story / drama significantly better. Having an explanation for why things are different this time would be nice. Then again maybe Shepard forgot that fact as others have pointed out that Shep acts surprised by LOTS of things he should already know.
@Lakus: Plot convenience theatre??
The other possibility is that the destroyer's shields WERE much weaker than normal but even the combined fleet couldn't punch through even weakened shields without the need to "hit the exhaust port". IIRC the Reapers were so OP that beating them with anything approaching brute force wasn't going to fly. I'm not saying they SHOULD have been written this way but IIRC they WERE written that way.
Note: I don't mind ignoring lore sometimes if it makes the story / drama significantly better. Having an explanation for why things are different this time would be nice. Then again maybe Shepard forgot that fact as others have pointed out that Shep acts surprised by LOTS of things he should already know.
Most of the things in the Rannoch arc have inconsistent shield strengths. The Geth dreadnought appears to be more powerful than any Reaper ship and a Destroyer later in the series would be taken out with a Cain (unless it just blew up the Hade's Cannon which blew up which took down the Reaper?). Despite the Cain's awesomeness and the Quarian's ragtag fleet-ness, I doubt it's that strong a weapon. Then again maybe the Cain was the inconsistent thing or else it leaves the question why no one bothered arming several people with a weapon that can be mass produced, carried by individuals, and wields such destructive power. Or maybe I'm overthinking all of this because the amount of hits the Destroyer can take depends on the difficulty level, so the Rannoch Reaper's toughness probably isn't a good base for judging these things given it's video gamey-ness.
I imagine that your point leads us back to the whole plot convenience theatre. Honestly I don't mind things that are convenient until they get to the point of being immersion breaking. You do bring up some valid points.
IIRC I believe folks were joking about doing what you're saying. Just give everyone a Cain and no more reapers 
I imagine that your point leads us back to the whole plot convenience theatre. Honestly I don't mind things that are convenient until they get to the point of being immersion breaking. You do bring up some valid points.
IIRC I believe folks were joking about doing what you're saying. Just give everyone a Cain and no more reapers
The cain can be useful. Have a group of folks carrying a cain, but instead of firing at the reaper, fire at the ground. It will loosen the ground and possibly create a hole deep enough that when the reaper steps in it, it might fall over. In the case of a capital ship, would it be able to get back up?
Most of the things in the Rannoch arc have inconsistent shield strengths. The Geth dreadnought appears to be more powerful than any Reaper ship and a Destroyer later in the series would be taken out with a Cain (unless it just blew up the Hade's Cannon which blew up which took down the Reaper?). Despite the Cain's awesomeness and the Quarian's ragtag fleet-ness, I doubt it's that strong a weapon. Then again maybe the Cain was the inconsistent thing or else it leaves the question why no one bothered arming several people with a weapon that can be mass produced, carried by individuals, and wields such destructive power. Or maybe I'm overthinking all of this because the amount of hits the Destroyer can take depends on the difficulty level, so the Rannoch Reaper's toughness probably isn't a good base for judging these things given it's video gamey-ness.
I'd say the quarian fleet was also severely underpowered.
I mean by all rights Shepard dhould have died in that first volley, given how close Shep was to the Reaper.
And in fact, Rannoch itself should have died. Remember the who "Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest SOB in space" bit in ME2... 
In your post you said that Sovereign was taking damage after the shields went down. Now you're saying we don't actually see the shots connect. Sovereign isn't taking any damage. Just because the Normandy is one-of-a-kind ship doesn't mean they also have one-of-a-kind weapon that no ther ship would have.
I never said the firng chamber was not a weak spot. Don't know what comic books have to do with anything or what PIS is.
Again the reason for Shepard painting the target was for the cool crap effect and to show Shepard get up close and personal with the reaper. The reaper was dead on the first barrage of rounds when it fell over. Again the whole thing was done for the cool crap effect.
The Thannix missiles weren't needed to take down the reaper in London. There was enough ordnance fired at the destroyer after the missles stuck the reaper to take it down without needing the Thannix missiles. Again, It was done for the cool crap effect.
The cain never hits the firing chamber
You say I forgot that the reapers set the path for all species to follow. Don't know why that was posted, but can you back up that remark?
As far as their backside being weak. The Turians were able to destroy several Capital ships by firing on their backside during the battle of Palaven
I made a mistake, big deal. Apparently since I have to explain it out to you, I don't care if you never said the firing chamber wasn't a weak spot. I bring up the weak spot because hitting them from the backside is irrelevant if they have the chance to hit them where it hurts which is from the front and inside the chamber. PIS is Plot induced stupidity. I don't know how it translates to the video game world because the comic book definition of it is..
"Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics."
In other words, something ridiculous happens that shouldn't have been able to happen. The Reaper falling over after getting shot shouldn't have happened since Shepard declares the firing chamber to be the weak spot yet the firing chamber wasn't exposed at the time. In other words, PIS. No the Reaper was not dead after it first got hit. Don't know why you keep thinking that because it was implied that it wasn't. Why in the world would Shep go back to "finish it" if it was dead? It doesn't matter if it was for some "cool crap effect", fact is it was not dead. You keep bringing up the Turians firing on their backside yet I don't recall them ever doing such things in the game. Even if they did, you ignored where I said that they need to be able to have the speed and the firepower to get behind them to do it. When all the forces got brought to Earth, how in the world do you expect them to get all those dreadnaughts and such behind the reapers without getting shot down? Yet again, The Reapers aren't stupid. Your logic would work if the Reapers were incompetent
I made a mistake, big deal. Apparently since I have to explain it out to you, I don't care if you never said the firing chamber wasn't a weak spot. I bring up the weak spot because hitting them from the backside is irrelevant if they have the chance to hit them where it hurts which is from the front and inside the chamber. PIS is Plot induced stupidity. I don't know how it translates to the video game world because the comic book definition of it is..
"Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline. It makes lesser powered characters an actual challenge against higher powered characters in the comics."
In other words, something ridiculous happens that shouldn't have been able to happen. The Reaper falling over after getting shot shouldn't have happened since Shepard declares the firing chamber to be the weak spot yet the firing chamber wasn't exposed at the time. In other words, PIS. No the Reaper was not dead after it first got hit. Don't know why you keep thinking that because it was implied that it wasn't. Why in the world would Shep go back to "finish it" if it was dead? It doesn't matter if it was for some "cool crap effect", fact is it was not dead. You keep bringing up the Turians firing on their backside yet I don't recall them ever doing such things in the game. Even if they did, you ignored where I said that they need to be able to have the speed and the firepower to get behind them to do it. When all the forces got brought to Earth, how in the world do you expect them to get all those dreadnaughts and such behind the reapers without getting shot down? Yet again, The Reapers aren't stupid. Your logic would work if the Reapers were incompetent
You can believe what you wnat about the reaper on Rannoch. I will stick with what I believe.
Here's what the Turians did
THink of how much damage they could do by slappping some FTL engines onto some unmanned nukes and repeating the process.
You can believe what you wnat about the reaper on Rannoch. I will stick with what I believe.
Here's what the Turians did
When Taetrus fell, the turians knew little about the Reapers except that they wanted to enrage the turians. Staying calm, the turians massed in force around Palaven, their homeworld. Fleet Admiral Irix Coronati, in what became known as the "Fifteen-Minute Plan," stationed only two carriers, Undaunted and Resolute, near the system's relay. When the Reaper fleet emerged, the carriers launched swarms of unmanned fighters and spy drones. These were quickly destroyed, but the drones transmitted vital data on the Reapers' effective range, fleet composition, and exact location. The turians' other ships then deployed to defend the system in earnest.Knowing that the Reapers' weapons had a longer effective range than any of his own, Coronati made a short, daring FTL jump--landing his dreadnoughts in the middle of the Reaper fleet. The dreadnoughts then turned to line up their main guns on the Reapers, which also needed to turn to fire on the turians. This ploy used the Reapers' size against them--because they could turn faster, the turian dreadnoughts locked targets first, and their concentrated firepower downed several Reaper capital ships.
Well, being that what you believe is wrong then ok..whatever floats your boat. Anyways so they made a FTL jump. "Daring" doesn't mean it's always going to work which is probably why you don't see it more often. If they tried that during the trip to Earth, it would've probably been disastourous. However, you did pretty much prove my point. They need the speed and the firepower to do it. Just shooting them in the backside isn't going to automatically kill them because they'd have their kinect barriers up. What happened is exactly what it says in the Codex about the Reapers. Dreadnoughts overloaded their barriers and were able to kill them. Speaking of the codex, I see it now where it mentioned your whole "attack from behind" bit yet I see you didn't notice why it says that isn't a smart thing to do
"
Although clearly technologically superior to the Citadel forces, the Reapers have experienced casualties in the battles across the galaxy. This indicates that, theoretically, with the right intelligence, weapons, and strategy, the Reapers could be defeated.
Unlike the mass effect relays that they created, Reapers do not have quantum shields. Locking itself down at a quantum level would leave a Reaper unaware of its surroundings until the shielding deactivated. Instead, Reapers rely on kinetic barriers.
In the case of a Reaper capital ship, these kinetic barriers can hold off the firepower of two dreadnoughts simultaneously, but three clearly causes strain, and four typically results in destruction. Weapons designed to maximize heat damage, such as the Thanix series, show better results against the Reapers than pure kinetic impacts.
The barriers of a Reaper destroyer are less formidable than those of a capital ship. It is possible for a single cruiser or many fighters to disable or demolish a destroyer if they can get within range before they are themselves destroyed.
The Reapers' energy sources are not infinite. For example, to land on a planet, a Reaper must substantially reduce its mass. This transfer of power to its mass effect generators leaves the Reaper's kinetic barriers at only partial strength.
Sovereign was destroyed while assuming direct control over Saren. The feedback from Saren's death seemed to entirely overload Sovereign's shields. Current Reapers do not seem to suffer from this design flaw.
Reaper capital ships can turn faster than Citadel dreadnoughts, but to do so, they must lower their mass to a level unacceptable in combat situations. Consequently, it is possible for a dreadnought to emerge from FTL travel behind a capital ship, then bring its guns to bear faster than the Reaper can return fire. This is a poor tactic, however, against Reapers flying in proper formation."
So yeah, hitting them from the backside isn't a guaranteed strategy whereas they have a better chance of nailing them in the firing chamber
Actually I do remember the Sir Isaac Newton speech and started to throw that in as an argument for "plot convenience" but opted not to. I think as the series progressed those sorts of details didn't matter to the devs.
As for beating the Reapers with clever tactics it would be nice if it could be approached that way but at some point I honestly believe the devs simply wanted to ignore the possibility that anything short of "space magic" would possibly be of use against the Reapers.
Simple.
Cains and Fleets.
Cains kill reapers (fact). Make lots of Cains. Attach them to capitol ships. Boom. Bye Bye Reapers.
THink of how much damage they could do by slappping some FTL engines onto some unmanned nukes and repeating the process.
Seems like a waste of nukes. I mean, the defense lasers on the Reapers will just blow them up.
Plus, you know nukes give off a lot of radiation. They'd be spotted a million miles away. How are you going to remotely fly them and expect them to decelerate accurately?
IIRC what passes for sensors in the ME universe can't detect things moving at FTL speeds so I imagine the point of attaching FTL drives to something would be to make it virtually undetectable and to cause a big mess if it happened to run into something. I wouldn't imagine nukes would be required and guidance would be an issue but if you get a lucky strike it might make a big mess on what it hit.
If the point would be to just deliver a nuclear payload in the neighborhood the nukes could still get to their destination undetected and if they were programmed to detonate when they dropped out of FTL there likely wouldn't be time to disable them. Precision navigation would likely be an issue but if you're trying to "carpet bomb" an area you may have some success.
I would love to save the rest of Synthetic life in the Galaxy from the crucible, but yeah we need it to win. It sucks the the Geth and Edi have to pay for the Reaper's crimes as well, but sadly that's just how it is.
For it to only defeat the Reapers you would need to completely rework the crucible to a ridiculous degree. And well, since I have nothing better to do...
For the crucible to only effect the Reapers, you would need to incorporate on the Omega-4 relay on to the crucible which detects the Reaper I.F.F. The I.F.F detects the Reaper Signal which allows Reapers, to travel through the Omega-4 relay. If you were to place this device on the Crucible, it would then look for targets that give off the Reaper Signal. Remember JUST the Reaper Signal. not the Reaper Code which the Geth and Edi have incorporated into their systems. This device from the Omeg-4 relay along with the Interferometric Array which in real time targets every Reaper in the Galaxy could theoretically be enough to Target only the Reapers in the blast.
Of course there is then the problem of how would the rest of the Galaxy receive these new Targeting Parameters in order to destroy the Reapers. That problem is solved by the other Relays. The Crucible is obviously connected to the relays otherwise how was it able to so effectively shoot the initial beam into the Local cluster Relay? So it isn't far fetched to think that when the Crucible is active it sends its targeting parameters to all the other relays in the Galaxy, telling them to "Look only for the Reaper signal and focus on that." With all of these pieces put together, it MIGHT work. You connect the Omeg-4 device on to the crucible. Telling it to only look for targets that carry the Reaper signal. It sends this data to the other Relays, giving them the same parameters. The Crucible fires, going past everything not giving off the Reaper Signal. The Geth are spared as they only have the Reaper code, and don't use the same Signal Reapers do. Edi is a bit Trickier however. Considering the Normandy has a I.F.F attached to it, thus is at risk to the blast still. They would need to either isolate the I.F.F on the Normandy so nothing else gets fried, or try to remove the I.F.F all together, which being hardwired into the Normandy would be rather difficult. The safer bet in my eyes would be to just try and isolate the I.F.F so only that gets fried, saving the rest of the ship along with Edi.
The only refusal ending scenario you should get is the one that's in the game already.
As it should be.
The only refusal ending scenario you should get is the one that's in the game already.
As it should be.
Actually I think there should have been two, the one we got and one with a Geth victory and advanced organics extinct.
I love it when people call Refuse "BioWare givan us the finger QQ - !"
When I ask these people how it should have ended they pretty much just say, if not proposing lore-breaking ideas where the Reapers are defeated with conventional weapons: "... I don't know, but, not like that!"
In Refuse, Shepard gives this defiant speech (which this ending's proponents actually seem to really love), and all the ugly, literally gory details all go down completely off-screen (what fate do you think your friends and loved ones just met?). You then fast-forward to Liara's beacon which gives one hope that the next cycle will find it in time, and that is indeed what ends up happening to boot. That is not a middle-finger, folks! If it were me designing this ending, it would have been ... well, just trust me when I say that this thing could have ended so much uglier than what BW gave you.
I love it when people call Refuse "BioWare givan us the finger QQ - !"
When I ask these people how it should have ended they pretty much just say, if not proposing lore-breaking ideas where the Reapers are defeated with conventional weapons: "... I don't know, but, not like that!"
In Refuse, Shepard gives this defiant speech (which this ending's proponents actually seem to really love), and all the ugly, literally gory details all go down completely off-screen (what fate do you think your friends and loved ones just met?). You then fast-forward to Liara's beacon which gives one hope that the next cycle will find it in time, and that is indeed what ends up happening to boot. That is not a middle-finger, folks! If it were me designing this ending, it would have been ... well, just trust me when I say that this thing could have ended so much uglier than what BW gave you.
Personally I refer to it as a "middle finger" because they made shooting the Catalyst trigger it. I doubt I'm the only one who always shot at the starbrat in frustration come time the ending arrives. To have everything taken over for a SO BE IT! then determine refusal is the only ending for me, make me watch it, then I have to reload the game and do it all over again but this time NOT shoot their precious plothole... Good troll, Bioware.
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