65 réponses à ce sujet

[Grimx0r]

Hi all,

 

So I am loving Inquisition, but the old school Baldur's Gate fan in me laments the loss of hard RPG elements in this game. Stat checks, secondary skills, that sort of thing. Don't get me wrong, I understand why. you're moving with the times and the market.

 

But lately, interest in Torment, Wasteland, Pillars of Eternity, the BG Enhanced Editions and Divinity have heralded a new age of isometric, deep-system, low(ish) budget RPGs. So why can't Bioware, the grand-pappy of accessible, story-rich CRPGS, get in on this? 

 

What would stop Bioware from producing a smaller-budget isometric RPG set in the Dragon Age Universe between the larger budget titles? How could you lose? It could even be set during the First Blight, or at the end of the Imperium, just to stop it from screwing with the narrative going forward.

 

Thoughts? Could you get on board with this? 

[Zwingtanz]

 

What would stop Bioware from producing a smaller-budget isometric RPG set in the Dragon Age Universe between the larger budget titles? How could you lose? It could even be set during the First Blight, or at the end of the Imperium, just to stop it from screwing with the narrative going forward.

 

 

EA would. I doubt we'll see any "old school" rpg projects outside of kickstarter, awesome though it would be.

[SofaJockey]

... hard RPG elements in this game. Stat checks, secondary skills, that sort of thing.

 

These things are a total yawn that a computer can do much more easily for you.

 

Some people miss rolling the dice

but the world has moved on.

[In Exile]

Hi all,

So I am loving Inquisition, but the old school Baldur's Gate fan in me laments the loss of hard RPG elements in this game. Stat checks, secondary skills, that sort of thing. Don't get me wrong, I understand why. you're moving with the times and the market.

But lately, interest in Torment, Wasteland, Pillars of Eternity, the BG Enhanced Editions and Divinity have heralded a new age of isometric, deep-system, low(ish) budget RPGs. So why can't Bioware, the grand-pappy of accessible, story-rich CRPGS, get in on this?

What would stop Bioware from producing a smaller-budget isometric RPG set in the Dragon Age Universe between the larger budget titles? How could you lose? It could even be set during the First Blight, or at the end of the Imperium, just to stop it from screwing with the narrative going forward.

Thoughts? Could you get on board with this?

Involving character customisation should be an ongoing priority for Bioware and you can see the kernel of it in terms of mechanical stuff with the number of (poorly documented) statistics that they bombard you with in-game.

There is an issue with how you characterise BG - since it was very simplistic when it came to non-combat skills and there really wasn't a lot of variety in builds unless you wanted to just build a crap character - but I do think if DAI gets a sequel we'll see more traditional RPG features of this character.

They might not be numeric. It shouldn't matter if they are numeric. The only reason P&P is that way is because people had to hand calculate stuff.

[Reymoose]

These things are a total yawn that a computer can do much more easily for you.

 

Some people miss rolling the dice

but the world has moved on.

I think you misunderstood the statement or are being deliberately obtuse.

 

When he says stat check in the Baldur's Gate/NWN/KOTOR sense, he means putting in skill points or stat points in a character build in order to perform an action.

 

For example, you make a rogue, you want this rogue not to be an assassin but more of a thief. You put in points in a 'lockpicking' ability and 'stealth', instead of say, 'backstabbing', and voila, your thief can now sneak into a room, steal loot without being detected.

 

These aspects of gameplay are crucial in the terminology of RPG which is currently being bastardized and 'actionized', which results in less innovation and more dilution of video games in general.

[katokires]

IN ****** love with this thread

[In Exile]

I think you misunderstood the statement or are being deliberately obtuse.

When he says stat check in the Baldur's Gate/NWN/KOTOR sense, he means putting in skill points or stat points in a character build in order to perform an action.

For example, you make a rogue, you want this rogue not to be an assassin but more of a thief. You put in points in a 'lockpicking' ability and 'stealth', instead of say, 'backstabbing', and voila, your thief can now sneak into a room, steal loot without being detected.

These aspects of gameplay are crucial in the terminology of RPG which is currently being bastardized and 'actionized', which results in less innovation and more dilution of video games in general.

These are highly mathematical aspects that don't need to be represented numerically. It could just as easily be done exclusively via quests - you join the thieves guild (which is exclusive with the assassin guild) and you get thieving missions rather than assassination missions. All without ever having any mathematical change.

[Ashevajak]

EA would. I doubt we'll see any "old school" rpg projects outside of kickstarter, awesome though it would be.

 

I'd be willing to donate to such a Kickstarter, if only to convince EA that it was, on some level, financially feasible.

 

Then again, I also donated quite heavily to Pillars of Eternity, for much the same reason.

[ironhorse384]

Hi all,

 

So I am loving Inquisition, but the old school Baldur's Gate fan in me laments the loss of hard RPG elements in this game. Stat checks, secondary skills, that sort of thing. Don't get me wrong, I understand why. you're moving with the times and the market.

 

But lately, interest in Torment, Wasteland, Pillars of Eternity, the BG Enhanced Editions and Divinity have heralded a new age of isometric, deep-system, low(ish) budget RPGs. So why can't Bioware, the grand-pappy of accessible, story-rich CRPGS, get in on this? 

 

What would stop Bioware from producing a smaller-budget isometric RPG set in the Dragon Age Universe between the larger budget titles? How could you lose? It could even be set during the First Blight, or at the end of the Imperium, just to stop it from screwing with the narrative going forward.

 

Thoughts? Could you get on board with this? 

You cited all pc specific titles and I think Bioware, even if they wanted to, wouldn't make it because they have to design and build games for all platforms.

[Vox Draco]

Hi all,

 

So I am loving Inquisition, but the old school Baldur's Gate fan in me laments the loss of hard RPG elements in this game. Stat checks, secondary skills, that sort of thing. Don't get me wrong, I understand why. you're moving with the times and the market.

 

I play CRPGs as well since BG1. That being said I think assigning stats (which, by the way, was not actually possible in BG1 and 2, wasn't it?) is not what makes an RPG. Oh, Fallout, it also had you only assign attributes at the beginning (and later through upgrades and, iirc, some perks, passively). I personally don't see it as that important for an RPG, bodybuilding through numbers...

 

And secondary skills ... well, yeah...pick-pocketing is my prime example here. In BG, you could get like 2-3 actually powerful/worthwile items. And it only worked when you saved before and constantly reloaded, because if you accidently failed? Everyone turned hostile, for the rest of the game. And its like that in many games.

 

Wasteland 2? Has a load of secondary skills, like toaster Repair...that can be used now and then under certain circumstances. Though I still have to see an actual use for normal mechanical repair. And you have about THREE different lockpicking-skills! To loot stuff, not much else. It looks good on paper, having SO MUCH options to characterize your party ... but I'd rather have a party with "personality" than points in toaster repair, to be honest.

[InfinitePaths]

The world and combat mechanics are moving on.

 

Big game companies won't cater to your nostalgia.Go make a kickstarter project.

[ironhorse384]

I'd be willing to donate to such a Kickstarter, if only to convince EA that it was, on some level, financially feasible.

 

Then again, I also donated quite heavily to Pillars of Eternity, for much the same reason.

I think, if something like that were to be done, it would have to be a different studio. It's certainly not impossible given the fact that Telltale is doing a game in the Borderlands universe. Clearly, there's a demand for it, considering that Beamdog has now done three enhanced editions and some of the other games you've mentioned done by different studios.

[WillieStyle]

And secondary skills ... well, yeah...pick-pocketing is my prime example here. In BG, you could get like 2-3 actually powerful/worthwile items. And it only worked when you saved before and constantly reloaded, because if you accidently failed? Everyone turned hostile, for the rest of the game. And its like that in many games.

 

Ha! Pick-pocketing in BG2 was ridiculously broken.  

• Pickpocket Kangaax for the best ring in the game.  Then kill him and get another copy.
• Buy (or better yet steal) those potions that buff thief skills.  Then go to the adventure mart and steal all the best endgame gear at the start of Act I.
• Steal a few expensive items from legitimate vendors; I liked the Sword of Roses myself.  Then find a fence.  Proceed to sell and steal back said items from said moronic fence until you had more gold than you could ever spend in Act I.

Truly, how could anyone not want to return to the halcyon days of yore?

[WillieStyle]

And while we're pining for terrible gameplay mechanics from Dungeons and Dragons, why not bring back save-or-die spells.

 

I can picture it now:

A trusty party of adventurers fights the big bad:

• Round 1: Fighter hits big bad for 5 damage; rogue hits big bad for 7 damage; mage casts disintegrate (big bad saves); big bad is at 288 hitpoints.
• Round 2: Fighter hits big bad for 10 damage; rogue hits big bad for 3 damage; mage casts disintegrate (big bad saves); big bad is at 275 hitpoints.
• Round 3: Fighter hits big bad for 8 damage; rogue hits big bad for 4 damage; mage casts disintegrate (big bad dies).
• Round 4: Fighter and rogue ask each other, "why are we even here?"

[Grimx0r]

I think you misunderstood the statement or are being deliberately obtuse.

 

When he says stat check in the Baldur's Gate/NWN/KOTOR sense, he means putting in skill points or stat points in a character build in order to perform an action.

 

For example, you make a rogue, you want this rogue not to be an assassin but more of a thief. You put in points in a 'lockpicking' ability and 'stealth', instead of say, 'backstabbing', and voila, your thief can now sneak into a room, steal loot without being detected.

 

These aspects of gameplay are crucial in the terminology of RPG which is currently being bastardized and 'actionized', which results in less innovation and more dilution of video games in general.

 

This is what I mean. There are some cool attempts at putting this sort of thing in Inquisition, but it is limited. At many points in a quest, where there was a problem involving Dalish elves, or subterfuge, I felt like I should have been able to go "I'm an elven rogue, goddamnit! I can solve this without hitting things!" But there is no opportunity. I'm not asking for tedious stuff like rounds or save vs. spell. I'm asking for the tools to become my character. That's the sort of stuff I want to see. Speech checks, knowledge checks, that kind of thing. 

 

But I digress. An isometric RPG would be hot hot hot at the moment, and appeal to old school players and next-gen fans of DA alike, as long as the lore was juicy. I think there is a market for this sort of thing, and the risk, while present, is pretty minimal. 

[Grimx0r]

I think, if something like that were to be done, it would have to be a different studio. It's certainly not impossible given the fact that Telltale is doing a game in the Borderlands universe. Clearly, there's a demand for it, considering that Beamdog has now done three enhanced editions and some of the other games you've mentioned done by different studios.

Obsidian could do it in their PE engine. They have the chops, and DA is essentially a super-simplified version of what their doing in PE: player strongholds, exploration, deep party members, tactical party-based combat.  Match made in heaven. 

[Grimx0r]

The world and combat mechanics are moving on.

 

Big game companies won't cater to your nostalgia.Go make a kickstarter project.

Well, they really aren't moving on. In many ways, they are moving backwards. Like I said, I understand, market forces and all. 

 

I'm sorry, but because something is good, and in the past, it doesn't make it nostalgia fueled. That's a ludicrous statement. PEOPLE WHO ENJOY SHAKESPEARE ARE JUST NOSTALGIC FOR A TIME WHEN SCRIPTS WERE IN IAMBIC PENTAMETER AND RHYMING COUPLETS! NOSTALGIA! STORYTELLING HAS MOVED ON! 

[WillieStyle]

I'm not asking for tedious stuff like rounds or save vs. spell. I'm asking for the tools to become my character. That's the sort of stuff I want to see. Speech checks, knowledge checks, that kind of thing. 

 

There are multiple speech checks in Dragon Age: Inquisition.  You either have the proper perk, or the right companion with you, or you can't get the best results.  

[Akka le Vil]

The state of some answers here is saddening.

The OP is talking about bringing RPG back to a more rounded experience, and a bunch of idiots use "times have moved on" (like if the "most recent" was a sign of quality in an idea ) and mock the idea of improving your avatar in any area that isn't combat-based...

 

/facepalm

 

 

Well, they really aren't moving on. In many ways, they are moving backwards. Like I said, I understand, market forces and all. 

 

I'm sorry, but because something is good, and in the past, it doesn't make it nostalgia fueled. That's a ludicrous statement. PEOPLE WHO ENJOY SHAKESPEARE ARE JUST NOSTALGIC FOR A TIME WHEN SCRIPTS WERE IN IAMBIC PENTAMETER AND RHYMING COUPLETS! NOSTALGIA! STORYTELLING HAS MOVED ON! 

 

QFT

Each time someone use the "nostalgia argument" retardation, I feel like the world is getting dumber.

[Reymoose]

These are highly mathematical aspects that don't need to be represented numerically. It could just as easily be done exclusively via quests - you join the thieves guild (which is exclusive with the assassin guild) and you get thieving missions rather than assassination missions. All without ever having any mathematical change.

 

 I didn't say that it should be represented numerically. Sure, it can be represented by joining factions, quests, etc. 

 

I would pose any option one could come up with that gives a character more depth is better than than "Oh for some reason, Sera, Varric, and Cole are all equal master locksmiths now." 

 

 

Ha! Pick-pocketing in BG2 was ridiculously broken.  

• Pickpocket Kangaax for the best ring in the game.  Then kill him and get another copy.
• Buy (or better yet steal) those potions that buff thief skills.  Then go to the adventure mart and steal all the best endgame gear at the start of Act I.
• Steal a few expensive items from legitimate vendors; I liked the Sword of Roses myself.  Then find a fence.  Proceed to sell and steal back said items from said moronic fence until you had more gold than you could ever spend in Act I.

Truly, how could anyone not want to return to the halcyon days of yore?

 

This might be a fallacy, because are you arguing that pick-pocketing should not be in DA:I for example, because it was broken in BG2? 

 

Here's an example, without spoilers, take one of the missions in DA:I where you have to speak to a number of npc's to get an item move the questline along. Now if you don't want to charm, intimidate or talk your way through it, you're presented with the option to invest a number of skill points to get stealth and pick-pocketing in order to steal said npc's information (let's say, a letter), and voila, now we have an additional way to complete the quest that is a completely different experience than walking around with different characters essentially doing the same thing.

[Darkly Tranquil]

The success of Divinity: Original Sin, Wasteland 2, the Banner Saga, and the anticipation for Pillars of Eternity shows there is still a fair bit of interest in old-school RPGs. People keep declaring them dead, but they keep crawling out of the grave like something out of a Romero movie. I'd get behind a DA game with old school mechanics in a heartbeat. My fantasy DA game would be a game with Divinity's gameplay, with Bioware's story and characters.

[ironhorse384]

Obsidian could do it in their PE engine. They have the chops, and DA is essentially a super-simplified version of what their doing in PE: player strongholds, exploration, deep party members, tactical party-based combat.  Match made in heaven. 

I suppose they could but I don't see why they'd want to. I mean, if Pillars is a success , wouldn't it make more sense for them to build off of their own IP rather than using someone else's?

[WillieStyle]

Here's an example, without spoilers, take one of the missions in DA:I where you have to speak to a number of npc's to get an item move the questline along. Now if you don't want to charm, intimidate or talk your way through it, you're presented with the option to invest a number of skill points to get stealth and pick-pocketing in order to steal said npc's information (let's say, a letter), and voila, now we have an additional way to complete the quest that is a completely different experience than walking around with different characters essentially doing the same thing.

 

Having a ton of skills with highly idiosyncratic uses that you need to pump points into in character creation is terrible game design: so yes, Varric, Sera, and Cole should all be equally proficient locksmiths.  The alternative would be trying to guess which rogue skills the developers happened to design gameplay for in this installment and how.  Look at KoToR for how skill proliferation makes for terrible gameplay.  DA:I's way of doing things is FAR superior.  There are four skill perks that are all used very widely in the game.  

 

And regarding your specific example: it would be better to have branching quest options.  You need to get the macgufin.  There are three ways to do so:

1. Fight your way to it,
2. Talk your way to it,
3. Subtlety.

Talking your way to it would require the right conversation perks and/or dialogue options.  Subtelty could be class-specific.  Some subtlety quests would require a rogue for sneaking/stealing.  Some would require a mage for glamoring people, while some would require a warrior to...  ...I got nothing.

 

DA:I already implements options 1 and 2.  It would be interesting to see DA4 implement option 3 as well.

[SofaJockey]

I think you misunderstood the statement or are being deliberately obtuse.

 

When he says stat check in the Baldur's Gate/NWN/KOTOR sense, he means putting in skill points or stat points in a character build in order to perform an action.

 

For example, you make a rogue, you want this rogue not to be an assassin but more of a thief. You put in points in a 'lockpicking' ability and 'stealth', instead of say, 'backstabbing', and voila, your thief can now sneak into a room, steal loot without being detected.

 

These aspects of gameplay are crucial in the terminology of RPG which is currently being bastardized and 'actionized', which results in less innovation and more dilution of video games in general.

 

I'm not adverse to being obtuse but your argument is a logical one.

 

To use your example, I would prefer to select a perk ability 'lockpicking' or 'advanced lockpicking'

than have to anticipate that my dexterity would need to be '46' instead of '44'.

 

For me, RPG has two components:

• The result, the ability to vary the character's interaction on the world
• The stats and mechanics which govern the success or failure of interactions.

It's the former that matters in my opinion, the latter is just a means to an end (like rolling dice).

 

I have no issue with limitation as long as the limitation makes for interesting outcomes.

Being limited to 8 active abilities, or 4 active abilities in multiplayer is something I'm having to think very carefully about, as opposed to the DAO dozens of items.

There was very little discussion of builds over DAO if I recall because you could just have whatever you liked.

 

I guess I'm saying that the ability to tinker with stats is not, of itself a perfect answer.

That DAO tactics screen for example, probably too onerous for most has been replaced with tactics that are arguably too rudimentary, we are looking for something smart inbetween.

 

Similarly, I think the health change is a good thing I now consider guard and the battlefield before me.

Yes, some additional sneak options would be interesting.

So would be the option to lure foes into an prepared ambush without your own party running around like loons.

 

In short, I think innovation can take place with simplified but clever mechanics

and the need for tweaking numbers manually can be largely dispensed with.