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[Suggestion] Update Store Chest Options

Débuté par Guest_Mortiel_* , déc. 21 2014 09:26

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#1
Guest_Mortiel_*
Posté 21 décembre 2014 - 09:26

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This was created at the request of Zane, largely copy+pasted then expounded upon.

 

The key to a fun and fluid gaming experience for the player in an environment such as DAMP is to be able to narrow down the RNG a bit, but not too much, with properly adjusted costs so you still have to work for what you want. This would make the game feel much more rewarding without cheapening the experience.

The structure of ME3MP packs:

  • Rookie Pack (5 items, all commons) for 5k credits
  • Veteran Pack (5 items, at least one guaranteed uncommon) for 20k credits
  • Spectre Pack (5 items, at least one rare) for 60k credits
  • Premium Spectre Pack (10 items, at least two rare, higher chance for ultra rare) for 90k credits

What these packs did was slightly narrow the RNG pool to higher-tier items as the players were able to reliably buy the higher-tier packs, but with properly adjusted costs. Of course, there was flaws in that system, like that blasted tier IV ammo that prevented me from maxing any Ultra Rare weapons even after almost 800 hours (tier IV ammo was a Rare grade consumable in the weapon pool, so despite maxing out all Rare and below items, buying a Premium would net a guaranteed two tier IV ammo instead of Ultra Rare weapons).

 

However, the chest tiers in ME3MP works because once you had a specific item maxed in level or quantity, you would no longer see that item drop. DAMP would have issues with that as you can get multiples of a single item, sometimes with slightly better/worse stats. We need a way to limit RNG that plays better with DAMP's loot system. The only way I'd see to help is to tier chest based on item level, as opposed to rarity:

 

Basic Chests would drop between 5-10 items (loot & potions), with a level-tiered loot item pool, depending on chest grade.

  • Small Chest (5 items, mixed loot+potions, Loot Level 1-10) for 400 gold
  • Medium Chest (7 items, mixed loot+potions, Loot Level 5-15) for 600 gold
  • Large Chest (10 items, mixed loot+potions, Loot Level 10-20 for 1200 gold
  • Premium Large Chest (10 items, mixed loot+potions, Loot Level 15-25, better rare/unique chance) 2000 gold

Potion Chests would be under a separate tree, as it is now:

  • Mixed Potion Chest (5 potions, mixed tonic/grenade/healing)
  • Healing Potion Check (5 healing potions)


​After implementing that basic chest tier method, Bioware could then add class specialized chests each under a new separate tree:

 

Magic Chests would drop 5 items (loot & potions), but the loot item pool would be restricted to staves and light armour upgrades.

  • Apprentice Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 1-15 mage weapon or upgrade) 800 gold
  • Mage Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 10-20 mage weapon or upgrade) 1600 gold
  • Enchanter Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 15-25 mage weapon or upgrade) 2400 gold

Vanguard Chests would drop 5 items (loot & potions), but the loot item pool would be restricted to two-handed weapons and heavy armour upgrades.

  • Brutality Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 1-15 two-handed weapon or upgrade) 800 gold
  • Slaughter Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 10-20 two-handed weapon or upgrade) 1600 gold
  • Rampage Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 15-25 two-handed weapon or upgrade) 2400 gold

Defender Chests would drop 5 items (loot & potions), but the loot item pool would be restricted to sword and shield weapons and heavy armour upgrades.

  • Bulwark Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 1-15 sword and shield weapon or upgrade) 800 gold
  • Devout Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 10-20 sword and shield weapon or upgrade) 1600 gold
  • Adamant Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 15-25 sword and shield weapon or upgrade) 2400 gold

Subterfuge Chests would drop 5 items (loot & potions), but the loot item pool would be restricted to dagger weapons and medium armour upgrades.

  • Silent Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 1-15 dagger weapon or upgrade) 800 gold
  • Nimble Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 10-20 dagger weapon or upgrade) 1600 gold
  • Untouchable Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 15-25 dagger weapon or upgrade) 2400 gold

Marksman Chests would drop 5 items (loot & potions), but the loot item pool would be restricted to archer weapons and medium armour upgrades.

  • Keen Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 1-15 archer weapon or upgrade) 800 gold
  • Precise Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 10-20 archer weapon or upgrade) 1600 gold
  • Uncanny Chest (5 items, one guaranteed level 15-25 archer weapon or upgrade) 2400 gold

​

Furthermore, Commendation Chests I sincerely hope will not be a generic chest in the future. There is an awesome opportunity here for having theme-based commendations for completing Weekend Challenges. ME3MP was spot on in rewarding characters with a guaranteed drop of 1 of the 5 elite N7 weapons. Similarly, Commendation Chests in Inquisition should give us something special, even if it is a moderately-good unique item, the point it more that getting a special unique item for a limited time event is kind of a memento of that event and how epic it was. Currently, no one will remember the first Weekend Challenge, except to note how bad it was.

 

I think that covers all of it... Any questions, let me know. Bioware staff are welcome to comment, even if it is to tell us it is not logistically feasible to do this.


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#2
Cavallius
Posté 21 décembre 2014 - 09:36

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Well I, for one, think it sounds like a wonderful idea.

 

A reasonable solution to the current problem, not too different from a system we know works.


#3
GenSpectrum
Posté 21 décembre 2014 - 09:45

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Yep. Even if this is segregating items out too much from a dev perspective (I dunno, I like this structure as consumers know what they are getting), I would enjoy some more thought put into the process of loot chests rather than /random 1-1000.


#4
Kevorka
Posté 21 décembre 2014 - 09:50

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Let's ask bio ware about it? How about extra craft items?
Would you like some DLC quest? I have been talking about it with some other people.

#5
tbxvividos
Posté 21 décembre 2014 - 10:51

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[color=rgb(159,159,159)][font='Open Sans'][size=3][background=rgb(252,252,252)]
[color=#000000][size=3]This was created at the request of Zane


Sounds like someone got hit with the ban-stick.

And I think the devs would be infinitely more likely to just make a "weapons chest" than they would be to segregate individual classes.

There wasn't a "shotgun pack" in me3mp now was there?

The reasons for this are myriad.

#6
Storm_Changer
Posté 21 décembre 2014 - 10:51

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I agree with this fully, I think it's a pretty darn good suggestion. 

 

I would prefer it if potions and normal items were split a part, though. Or if potions were actually made useful, one of the two. 


#7
veramis
Posté 21 décembre 2014 - 11:32

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Good ideas, but personally I think having 3 tiers of chests for each specific type of weapon to be unnecessary. Most people would know to go for the 2400 gold chests instead of the 800 or 1600 gold chests. A single chest for each specific type of weapon, costing 1.5k-3k gold, with guaranteed weapon of item level 15-23, could be a compromise.

 

It would be better if all weapons could be viable as in ME3MP, but if bioware has no intention of doing so, then the chest ideas described here would be much easier to implement and address a significant amount of the issues plaguing the current loot system.


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#8
Dragkonias
Posté 22 décembre 2014 - 12:26

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Honestly. I think weapons under level 10(level 15 if we're being honest) just shouldn't be in the game.

 

Their utility beyond anything above routine is highly questionable and they feel like nothing more than junk loot at the moment.


#9
Tang McGame
Posté 22 décembre 2014 - 01:13

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I'd be content with a high-level pack with no other division of the loot table.  At most, I could see a separate "materials" pack that comes with gems and armor items.  The thing is, thanks to the half-baked loot design in the game, there would be no reason to ever spend a single gold on anything other than the high-level pack.  I think they were hoping to get the same reward loop going that they had in ME3MP in a different way, but they left out the whole "I'm still getting progress even if it's not the progress I want" aspect of the max-out-to-remove-from-loot-pool part of ME3MP rewards. 

 

My feelings can be summed up as this: ME3MP never felt like an afterthought, but DAIMP sure does.


#10
Guest_Mortiel_*
Posté 22 décembre 2014 - 06:12

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I'd be content with a high-level pack with no other division of the loot table.  At most, I could see a separate "materials" pack that comes with gems and armor items.  The thing is, thanks to the half-baked loot design in the game, there would be no reason to ever spend a single gold on anything other than the high-level pack.  I think they were hoping to get the same reward loop going that they had in ME3MP in a different way, but they left out the whole "I'm still getting progress even if it's not the progress I want" aspect of the max-out-to-remove-from-loot-pool part of ME3MP rewards. 

 

My feelings can be summed up as this: ME3MP never felt like an afterthought, but DAIMP sure does.

Like the greatsword I have in multiplayer that increases my Focus, where Focus doesn't exist? Yeah, definitely makes DAMP feel like an afterthought.

Yeah, I honestly agree with you... I have been saying that the leveled item system (a random item of a fixed level) in DAI is definitely inferior to the item levels (a random item can be increased in level) in ME3, which unfortunately is what breaks the loot system for many.

 

Honestly, I'd be fine with having one of each weapon type (sword, axe, mace, greatsword, greataxe and so on) and just level them up by some proprietary means.
 

Sadly, that logical idea will be extremely difficult to implement, and so will likely never happen.


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#11
ChaosBlades
Posté 22 décembre 2014 - 11:13

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It brings a tear to the eye knowing this probably won't happen. But I still have hope. I basically never play a dagger welding class because I never get drops and seem to permanently be stuck with crap daggers. I have at least one 20+ rare of every other class of weapon in some cases more but I am still stuck with common daggers. DAMP loot is the dumbest thing ever.


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#12
knownastherat
Posté 22 décembre 2014 - 03:56

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Let's ask bio ware about it? How about extra craft items?
Would you like some DLC quest? I have been talking about it with some other people.

 

Indeed. That is what I would like to see. 

 

Alright guys, you do not like the current loot/store system this is what we can do about it. Lets have some suggestions and debate because there are good ideas floating around. Or we cannot do anything about it because whatever ... take it or leave it.

 

Back in the so-called real world, why do you insist on system of pack with probabilities. Why not cut the crap and have store/loot offer such upgrades which would guarantee and allow for individualized progress. I want Immolate ring, I do not want any other. I want staff with Fire damage. I want belt with Spirit Resistance. Why I cannot customize my character the way I want directly, why do I have to rely, more or less, on something random?

 

In RPG you level up and get stronger. Usually, you have points to assign to different attributes. Its called progression, character building, whatever. Its not like you level up and get random Dexterity or Strength point or perhaps + 30% bonus to Hide in Shadows when you are mage. Its crazy, just ditch it.

 

 

---

 

edit:

 

What kind of loot can I get in a dungeon?

 

You will find gold coins and items (not potions), and at the end of a mission, you can use gold coins to buy chests. They will contain a variety of different items (weapons, weapon mods, potions, runes, armor, etc.). We are developing Dragon Age multiplayer with quick engagement in mind. We want it to be easy to play a round, acquire new loot, and jump back into the action. Now that you have new cool weapons and armor, why wouldn't you try another mission?

 

 

http://answers.ea.co...945647#U3945647

 

Again indeed, jump back in to try another mission. But not because I got crap from RNG so lets try again or even I got the top stuff because then what is the point. Because its fun and because every game, every experience, makes me stronger, individual. Jump back to wait to see the jack pot. You can do better than that EA.


#13
Tang McGame
Posté 22 décembre 2014 - 04:29

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It brings a tear to the eye knowing this probably won't happen. But I still have hope. I basically never play a dagger welding class because I never get drops and seem to permanently be stuck with crap daggers. I have at least one 20+ rare of every other class of weapon in some cases more but I am still stuck with common daggers. DAMP loot is the dumbest thing ever.

 

I was so disappointed by how difficult it is to get high-level gear I didn't even think about how you could be cut off from playing classes entirely because you have terrible luck with loot.  Yeah, this loot system is a problem.  Unfortunately, I feel like they're going to fix it about 6 months after I stop checking to see if they have.

 

Just to expound a bit for the sake of whatever developers read this, let's take a look at another loot-driven game: Diablo 3.  On release, D3 had a terrible, highly luck-based and extremely unrewarding loot system.  Despite the fact that the gameplay was very compelling, people still left the game in droves because they couldn't achieve any meaningful progress.  I don't mean to suggest a 1:1 comparison between DAIMP and D3, but if D3 couldn't hold onto players because of its loot system, DAIMP doesn't have a prayer. 

 

(Sidenote: Seriously, why haven't more loot-driven game developers looked at the lessons Blizzard learned with D3?  It wasn't just the RMAH that angered players.  Look at the whole picture.  Blizzard has fixed many of the mistakes they made, but other developers seem to ignore the solutions and continue to implement the problems.)

 

Plugging in a X% chance to achieve progress per loot box is not fun.  It's infuriating.  It makes players feel like they're being tricked.  It makes actual upgrades feel like strictly luck-based rewards rather than something achieved by hard work.  It makes gold rewards feel worthless.  And where a good crafting system might have mitigated the luck entirely, we got a half-assed system that is about as unexciting as it gets, especially after unlocking all the classes, and is in no way designed to mitigate bad luck.  I realize that, ultimately, every loot-driven game can be boiled down to percentages, but there's a difference between raw probability (DAIMP) and inevitable achievement (ME3MP).

 

In metaphorical terms, it surfaces all the problems of addiction without any of the payoff.  I feel like you guys figured a certain number of hours you wanted the average player to play before getting an upgrade and then you never looked at the system again.  On top of that, I think you way overshot that number.  So you've driven away players (and potential income from the purchase of platinum) because of...is it greed?  Were you hoping everyone would spend $400 in the hopes of good items?  Or did you believe that the gameplay itself was enough to keep people around?  That was certainly true for ME3MP, but surely you knew this is a different beast altogether, right? 

 

You MUST reward players for their playtime in a loot-driven game, and you must make the reward loop extremely tight.  Err on the side of giving players too much. 

 

I was afraid DAIMP would be a bit troubled even before I got the game.  In one of the streams, I remember a developer (who I believe was the project lead) talking about things he wanted in the game.  He kept saying "I wanted..." rather than "We wanted..."  That's a huge red flag for me.  Maybe he was just misspeaking, but the MP does smack of a singular vision rather than a group-developed project.  Surely you guys were aware of how steep the progress curve was and is, so all this leads me to believe that any feedback on the issue was ignored in favor of this single person's vision for the game.  I believe that any discussion about how the game "feels" to play was rebuffed with math.  At least, that's how the game plays to me.

 

Good luck fixing it, Bioware, but it's super broken.


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#14
Chi_Mangetsu
Posté 22 décembre 2014 - 05:14

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In a way, I get why the loot system gives us vendor trash so we can break it down for crafting materials, but as you start unlocking ad crafting armors (I've upgraded most classes, though still waiting on the Deathbringer and Mortalitasi sets to be fixed--unless they're WaI which would be silly and disappointing), they should be less common. As our rank increases, we ought to see more reliably high leveled stuff. Heck, I got the Boon of the Spoon within the first few days I started DAMPing. Suffice to say, super-randomtivity is not necessarily a good thing. FATAL comes to mind with a 1-1000 chart. But hey, at least DAI doesn't have any RGOs, right? ... right?

#15
Tang McGame
Posté 22 décembre 2014 - 05:22

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The Game that Must Not be Named!  What have we done?  WHAT HAVE WE DONE?


#16
Miclotov
Posté 22 décembre 2014 - 05:34

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Could be worse.


#17
knownastherat
Posté 22 décembre 2014 - 05:39

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In a way, I get why the loot system gives us vendor trash so we can break it down for crafting materials, but as you start unlocking ad crafting armors (I've upgraded most classes, though still waiting on the Deathbringer and Mortalitasi sets to be fixed--unless they're WaI which would be silly and disappointing), they should be less common. As our rank increases, we ought to see more reliably high leveled stuff. Heck, I got the Boon of the Spoon within the first few days I started DAMPing. Suffice to say, super-randomtivity is not necessarily a good thing. FATAL comes to mind with a 1-1000 chart. But hey, at least DAI doesn't have any RGOs, right? ... right?

 

To paraphrase one poster, this guy gets it :)

 

Breaking up, crafting, takes what? 50 - 100 hours? What then? The only progression, after hitting the jack pot, is  +1 when promoting. For those playing long enough, having inventory (semi)full of purples, what is the drive? The system in place is cheap. Perhaps its designed like that on purpose, 50 - 100 hours to jump in then forget about it, and that is fine. The problem we are having here that we are left with vague phrasing like we will release DLC, we will release new characters,  we have tactical class combat and extensive loot and crafting systems. Alright, but it tells nothing. 


#18
Dragkonias
Posté 22 décembre 2014 - 06:32

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Another note on the crafting. Another problem I have with it is how barebones it is.

 

I think if it had opened up with actual schematics so you could craft weapons people wouldn't be as annoyed as they are by the system. Right now all we have are crafting for armors that are little more than cosmetic and weapon parts for weapons we're trying to get.

 

Like knownastherat was saying they've been saying for a minute that they would be adding stuff like schematics but we've been waiting well over a month. And given that its Christmas break we'll more than likely be waiting for another month before we even start getting announcements.

 

And the lack of announcements to me makes it seem like Bioware doesn't even know when they'll have this stuff up.


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#19
Ryumanjisen
Posté 22 décembre 2014 - 06:39

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Another note on the crafting. Another problem I have with it is how barebones it is.

 

I think if it had opened up with actual schematics so you could craft weapons people wouldn't be as annoyed as they are by the system. Right now all we have are crafting for armors that are little more than cosmetic and weapon parts for weapons we're trying to get.

 

They missed the chance to make a really good RNG system, on par with ME3MP. If only they added schematics to make our own weapons instead of this shitty random loot system...


#20
Guest_Mortiel_*
Posté 22 décembre 2014 - 10:16

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They missed the chance to make a really good RNG system, on par with ME3MP. If only they added schematics to make our own weapons instead of this shitty random loot system...

 

I can say I was really disappointed in the crafting in MP. You can craft armour, but not armour upgrades; You can craft weapon upgrades, but not weapons. How does that make sense?!

 

Actually, I really was disappointed by the crafting in general... Once you got a bunch of tier 3 materials in SP, you pretty much made godmode weapons and armour (yes, even without tier 4 dragon mats), since the tertiary stats of materials largely doesn't matter and most FT mats were useless.


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