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Weapons thread (Cold & Warm)


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#251
Fidite Nemini

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I have always assumed the Ho 229 mission was to shoot down American bombers (though there was also a much larger bomber project - in the stage of a pencil drawing).

 

Afaik the official guidelines for the German design contest that the Horten brothers won with their design was the 1000/1000/1000 project. Hoebbels specifically wanted an aircraft that could carry at least thousand kilograms weapons load over a range of at least a thousand kilometres at a speed of at least 1000 kmph. In that regard, the original mission profile would be that of a fast longrange (fighter-) bomber.



#252
bEVEsthda

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Afaik the official guidelines for the German design contest that the Horten brothers won with their design was the 1000/1000/1000 project. Hoebbels specifically wanted an aircraft that could carry at least thousand kilograms weapons load over a range of at least a thousand kilometres at a speed of at least 1000 kmph. In that regard, the original mission profile would be that of a fast longrange (fighter-) bomber.

 

You're correct. I must have been confused by vague memories of the suggested Horten VIII design.

The Horten IX, aka Horten Ho 229, aka Gotha Ho 229 also began as a bomber, the 3 X 1000 challenge, as you say.

But it wouldn't have survived as a bomber program. In 1944, fighters were given all priority. Which is why it was supposed to carry first 2 X 30mm cannons, and then 4 X 30mm cannons. Which is also why I perceived it as a defensive fighter (which it maybe also was).



#253
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You're correct. I must have been confused by vague memories of the suggested Horten VIII design.

The Horten IX, aka Horten Ho 229, aka Gotha Ho 229 also began as a bomber, the 3 X 1000 challenge, as you say.

But it wouldn't have survived as a bomber program. In 1944, fighters were given all priority. Which is why it was supposed to carry first 2 X 30mm cannons, and then 4 X 30mm cannons. Which is also why I perceived it as a defensive fighter (which it maybe also was).

 

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on what fighters were designed for and then later supposed to do. Hitler infamously decided that for example the Me262 were to be made a fighterbomber, a role it's entirely not suited for in which all its advatages would turn into disadvantages.

 

Like many things, the german desperate attempts to make a weapon system so advanced that it would win the war did result in some truly impressive successes, all of which was inconsequential because Germany never had, nor ever would have enough materials and manufacturing capacity to produce, man and support any of that stuff in sufficient quantities to ever be more than a neat war trophy to be carried home and studied after the inevitable loss of the war.

 

 

 

Now onto something weapon'y and something more about raw power projection:

 

Sputnik-516.jpg

 

The pictured object sent ripples of panic throughout the western world. Why? Because it meant the USSR had successfully developed and fielded the means not only to put satellites into earth orbit, but because subsequently, it also meant it could deliver nuclear warheads the same way and was no longer reliant on big, slow Tupolevs which could be intercepted. At that time, there was nothing you could do to intercept what would later be known as ICMBs.

 

It also brought about the space race as we know it from history books (the race had obviously started a lot earlier, but with Sputnik being a rough wake-up call, it was then that the US really pushed for advancement!).


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#254
bEVEsthda

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Like many things, the german desperate attempts to make a weapon system so advanced that it would win the war did result in some truly impressive successes, all of which was inconsequential because Germany never had, nor ever would have enough materials and manufacturing capacity to produce, man and support any of that stuff in sufficient quantities to ever be more than a neat war trophy to be carried home and studied after the inevitable loss of the war.

 

Well, the really desperate programs, towards the end of the war, all failed, and could only fail. The Germans sucked at conceptual design during WW2. It's a story of consecutive failures.

 

...But we should  be careful of what we're talking about. Measured technical success came in sound, long-term programs that finally, belately, got a bit of priority and funding. Like Me 262, and giving the FW 190 better high altitude performance, i.e. FW 190D9, Ta 152. Type XXI submarines weren't any desperation program either. Guided missiles. Military success did not follow because it was too little, too late. But the true desperation programs, like He 162, only diverted and wasted resources.

 

Germany wasted resources throughout WW2 on nutty programs. V2 is regarded as technological success. But what was it supposed to do? Building a V2 rocket, hurt Germany much more, through the substantial cost and waste of human and material resources, than the explosion of its warhead somewhere randomly in Britain. From the start, it could do nothing for the German war effort. An entirely negative contribution. Just like the giant cannons, the giant tanks, rocket planes...

 

They gambled right when they decided to develop jet engines, but screwed themselves from the start when they decided to only push axial-flow engines, a technology that would take a decade to mature, and two decades to solve all fundamental problems. The allies jet engines didn't get substantial funding until after the Me 262 had flown in '43. But by the end of the war, the American radial compressor J33 engine was not only twice as powerful as the German engines, but also possessed service life, fly-ability and reliability by a completely different magnitude.

 

And the German inferiority in tanks towards the second half was self made. They had good momentum in both tank production and in fielding tank divisions. But then they brought it all to a screeching halt, by consecutively producing three of the worst tanks of WW2. Tiger, Tiger II and Panther. The two first consumed gargantuan resources and efforts, to not only build, but also to somehow transport to the front in ridiculously too small quantities, where they were still defeated by only moderately increased efforts. ...Or broke down and couldn't be serviced. The Panther was supposed to have learned from these negative experiences and from the mass-produced and easily deployed American Sherman and Russian T34. But in the end the imbeciles at the top couldn't help themselves but just had to ignorantly dictate increased armor and thus weight, and consequently produced another immobile disaster. Simplifying production by cutting down expected service life was the proper thing to do, but if they had studied the Sherman and T34 better, they could have observed that neither of them skimped on the final drive. As it was, they wasted more resources, by just driving the Panther to battle where the final drive then promptly broke down and the tank had to be abandoned to the enemy.

 

Other unfolding disasters were the failures to replace the Bf 109 by '43, and the Bf 110 even earlier. Not to mention the Ju 52. The leadership seemed to have believed that it wasn't important. I could add a strategic bomber, to undercut Soviet logistics and war production, but things were already way too gone by then.

 

This is so kinda typical for how Germany conducted things during WW2. The incompetence of dictatorship and culture of yes-men and dilettantes. Totalitarian societies carries their own defeat within themselves. They did what they thought was "kewl" and exciting, like conquest of Stalingrad, no retreat -orders, rockets, big guns, megalomaniac architecture, Aryan race breeding, genocide... Nevermind what was rational, worthwhile or important. The entire nazi-era was just a big art-project. They really should have accepted Hitler to the academy. He wasn't so bad as a painter. 


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#255
Kaiser Arian XVII

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5280_screen03.jpg

 

Minigun... is it possible to use it efficiently on foot?



#256
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Minigun... is it possible to use it efficiently on foot?


Only if you are a large, bullet-headed Russian.
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#257
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Only if you are a large, bullet-headed Russian.

 

Specifically this fellow:

 

25829-team-fortress-team-fortress-2-red-


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#258
Sully13

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Only if you are a large, bullet-headed Russian.

or a scantly clad Japanese school girl.



#259
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199ww26mhxzq6jpg.jpg


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#260
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199ww26mhxzq6jpg.jpg

 

 

Well it started as a program for a specialized close air support aircraft, A-X. Pierre Sprey of the infamous 'fighter mafia' got the task of writing the specs. He pretty much used Hans-Ulrich Rudel as a design consultant. Rudel had spent a large part of his life after WW2 warning about the red menace, the "Bolsheviks". Rudel was also a big believer in big aircraft guns as a weapon against Soviet tanks and vehicles. He pretty much insisted on it. So the gun was developed for the aircraft, but the aircraft was then designed around the gun. Rudel managed to get to fly the A10.



#261
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5280_screen03.jpg

 

Minigun... is it possible to use it efficiently on foot?

 

It's done in movies by big guys. However, you need to carry not only the gun and the ammo (which at 120 rounds/sec will be heavy) but also a couple of car batteries to power the gun. A Gatling mechanism gun is driven by an exterior force. It does not use recoil or gas pressure for operation.



#262
Fidite Nemini

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*snip*

 

The REAL problem Germany had wasn't that it's weapons were too cost ineffective or whatever. It was that all of the Axis industrial capacity and fighting capable population was soooooooo much less comparing to what the Allies could field that it was utterly impossible for them to win. They simply could've never won it, period. The entire WW2 was one giant military facepalm for the Axis ever since Hitler decided to "let's have war, hurrdurr".

 

That is the issue, everything else is just a symptom.

 

 

 

Well it started as a program for a specialized close air support aircraft, A-X. Pierre Sprey of the infamous 'fighter mafia' got the task of writing the specs. He pretty much used Hans-Ulrich Rudel as a design consultant. Rudel had spent a large part of his life after WW2 warning about the red menace, the "Bolsheviks". Rudel was also a big believer in big aircraft guns as a weapon against Soviet tanks and vehicles. He pretty much insisted on it. So the gun was developed for the aircraft, but the aircraft was then designed around the gun. Rudel managed to get to fly the A10.

 

Can you link me to sources stating this?

 

I never found any article about the A-10's development that stated Rudel's influence that could actually back up the claim. The only backed up claim regarding Rudel I ever found was that his biography was a must-read for project participators, but direct consultation or work on the project by the man itself, never seen anything state that with sources backing up the claim.



#263
Aimi

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The REAL problem Germany had wasn't that it's weapons were too cost ineffective or whatever. It was that all of the Axis industrial capacity and fighting capable population was soooooooo much less comparing to what the Allies could field that it was utterly impossible for them to win. They simply could've never won it, period. The entire WW2 was one giant military facepalm for the Axis ever since Hitler decided to "let's have war, hurrdurr".
 
That is the issue, everything else is just a symptom.


Those sorts of answers are never all that satisfying to me, because it's a long way from the factory to the front (the Krazniy Oktyabr plant in Stalingrad notwithstanding). It isn't enough to produce a lot more; you have to produce the right stuff, you have to get it where it needs to go, allocate it properly between sectors, and finally use it to actually fight. None of the links in that chain was all that certain to hold up for any combatant in the war, and the Allies' victory had as much to do with their adequate employment of their war machine as with its size.

After all, in the Great War, a badly outnumbered Germany fought a vastly numerically superior foe on two fronts. It was clearly outclassed from an industrial production standpoint; arguably, supposedly 'backward' Russia alone, even in 1914, had a higher aggregate military potential than did Germany. Yet Germany won the war on one of those fronts outright and came within a coin-flip of winning on the other front. Clearly, British, French, Russian, and American industrial power was not enough to guarantee them a victory. All of the Entente powers badly mismanaged their war mobilization and the handling/conduct of their armies, and squandered much of their industrial potential in doing so.

My point isn't really that Nazi Germany had a theoretical shot at winning the Second World War. I don't think that Nazi conquests would've been stable or enduring even if it had been possible for them to keep going for awhile. But Allied victory wasn't a foregone conclusion, either. It would not have been enough for the Allies to swamp Germany in manpower and matériel. They had to organize it, and they had to fight with it. It's a little purple and melodramatic, but...there it is.
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#264
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As much as I love your posts Eirene...

 

Are you sure you aren't wikipedia given human form?

 

You have like... 3000 years of history embedded into that brain of yours.

 

Maybe you're an Immortal? You must be pretty good to not have been decapitated yet.

 

Any chance of a good Highlander remake? 



#265
Fidite Nemini

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Those sorts of answers are never all that satisfying to me, because it's a long way from the factory to the front (the Krazniy Oktyabr plant in Stalingrad notwithstanding). It isn't enough to produce a lot more; you have to produce the right stuff, you have to get it where it needs to go, allocate it properly between sectors, and finally use it to actually fight. None of the links in that chain was all that certain to hold up for any combatant in the war, and the Allies' victory had as much to do with their adequate employment of their war machine as with its size.

After all, in the Great War, a badly outnumbered Germany fought a vastly numerically superior foe on two fronts. It was clearly outclassed from an industrial production standpoint; arguably, supposedly 'backward' Russia alone, even in 1914, had a higher aggregate military potential than did Germany. Yet Germany won the war on one of those fronts outright and came within a coin-flip of winning on the other front. Clearly, British, French, Russian, and American industrial power was not enough to guarantee them a victory. All of the Entente powers badly mismanaged their war mobilization and the handling/conduct of their armies, and squandered much of their industrial potential in doing so.

My point isn't really that Nazi Germany had a theoretical shot at winning the Second World War. I don't think that Nazi conquests would've been stable or enduring even if it had been possible for them to keep going for awhile. But Allied victory wasn't a foregone conclusion, either. It would not have been enough for the Allies to swamp Germany in manpower and matériel. They had to organize it, and they had to fight with it. It's a little purple and melodramatic, but...there it is.

 

It pretty much actually is that easy.

 

Just take a look at how the Soviets fought. Classic Zerg Rush. A good deal of the time, a significant number of soldiers going to battle didn't even have a gun, they had to loot it from fallen comrades. Granted, it wasn't only because the Soviets didn't have enough guns, but also because the Soviet officiers knew the fatalities would be so high that it ultimately mattered little if everyone or only every second one had a gun.

 

 

Taking a look at the pre-war industrial output, the Soviets and the USA alone were already possessing a much higher industrial capacity than Germany had when they were already all but on full war footing and that is before those nations went to go to war economy. Germany never even had enough resources to build enough weapons to even theoretically stand a chance, let alone actually produce all that, let alone crew all that equipment. Italy and Japan were the same picture, Japan in fact even worse as they already were on the verge of collapse due to a simple oil/gas embargo.

 

The retrospective of history is easy of course, but it doesn't change the fact that you could put a couple stasticians in a library with industrial and population growth data and they'd tell you the Axis would be insane to try a war and actually thinking they had any chance to win short of their enemies simply letting them without giving a fight.

 

 

Logistics, strategy, lack of counter strategy and on-the-field tactics are all force multipliers, yes. But you can only multiply whatever force you have so much until you hit your hard cap ... and that hard cap was so woefully lower for the Axis than it was to the Allies that their only hope was the Allies wouldn't even put up a fight. Which is exactly what happened in France and the early stage with the Soviets (one due to horrible planning, the other due to ignoring espionage reports). France together with the british Expeditionary Force had enough experienced troops to grind down the German offensive and the much famed strategical brilliance of going through the Ardennes is little more than pure luck. That troop train going throgh those forests wasn't the largest flanking manouvre of WW2, it was the largest traffic jam of WW2. Had any of the allied sentry forces down there noticed them, even the deployed third rate/reservist troops could have stalled all progress to such a crawl that reinforcements could have arrived early enough to turn the Ardennes into the world's biggest scrapyard.

 

It was pure luck that WW2 didn't end right then and there, same as it was pure luck that Stalin ignored a plethora of intelligence reports (the Soviets had bar none THE best espionage system on the entire world!) that were telling exactly what Germany was up to, including troop movement reports galore and everything someone in power would need only take ONE look at and see what's going on.

 

 

 

In short and in more direct answer to your post than my little rant on military history (got carried away a little):

Axis defeat was inevitable, even if they somehow managed to fight an entire war and win through pure luck, their new empire would have come crashing down as soon as someone would take a look at the economic reality of paying for all that. They hardly had thr money to stage their attacks, they never had the money or people to actually use all the land they might have conquered.

Allied victory likewise was only impossible if they didn't even fight.


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#266
Aimi

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It pretty much actually is that easy.
 
Just take a look at how the Soviets fought. Classic Zerg Rush. A good deal of the time, a significant number of soldiers going to battle didn't even have a gun, they had to loot it from fallen comrades. Granted, it wasn't only because the Soviets didn't have enough guns, but also because the Soviet officiers knew the fatalities would be so high that it ultimately mattered little if everyone or only every second one had a gun.


The problem is that that is exactly how they did not fight when they started winning. David Glantz has identified several areas in which the Red Army steadily improved its capabilities, at higher strategic leadership and in small-unit tactics, in operational integration of combined arms, and in staffwork. There was no 'Zerg rush' about it; there has been nothing like 'Zerg rush' in actual military tactics since the nineteenth century. Successful Soviet operations required top-notch planning and performance like anywhere else in the war; when Soviet operations lacked this top-notch work, they often failed.

Glantz also tracked key improvements. Put loosely, they went something like this. From June 1941 to Septemberish 1942, even the Soviet varsity got squished by the Germans so long as the Wehrmacht was properly prepared and had not reached culmination; only when German offensives were carried on into operational depth could the Red Army exert enough pressure to cause their halt. From September 1942 to June 1943, there was a sort of flux state, where the Red Army's best performed very unevenly (compare the success of Vasilevsky's attacks against the Stalingrad and Caucasus salient with the abject failure of Zhukov's Operation MARS at the same time) and still had problems with culmination (as at the Third Battle of Kharkov). From June 1943 onward, the Red Army's best was better than the Wehrmacht's best, and the advantage only grew the following year when the Soviets annihilated Army Group Center.

Even then, the Soviet military lacked the capability to advance all along the front, because even the vaunted Russian steamroller wasn't big enough or logistically capable enough to do that. The Stavka had to pick its spots, allocate resources at the best possible locations, husband troops and tanks for what was important, and integrate everything into an overall plan of operations and logistics. What changed between 1941 was not that the Russians got 'more' men or 'more' guns, bullets, tanks, planes, trucks, etc. What changed was that those resources were employed more carefully and skillfully compared to the wild haymakers that the Red Army launched in 1941 - attacks that only played into the Wehrmacht's hands, even though they were powerful and desperate and mounted by soldiers who were as committed to their cause as any Red Army troops ever were.

This is the story with almost every story of military numerical superiority I can think of. It is not enough that an advantage exists: it must be used, and used properly. The American government possessed a vast numerical and industrial advantage over the slaveholding rebellion in the 1860s, but the US Army had to develop an advanced staff system and supply, and had to properly train and deploy its troops under able commanders, before that advantage told and resulted in victory. As with the Great Patriotic War, the final act of the American Civil War showed off that army's skills at its very best. The Manchurian Strategic Offensive Operation in August 1945 was a virtuoso display of operational maneuver, strategic redeployment, and more than a little hard fighting. (In true Soviet fashion, it also involved mass atrocities, most of which took place after the fighting.) And in March-April 1865, the Armies of the Potomac, Shenandoah, and James comprehensively annihilated the Army of Northern Virginia in the Appomattox campaign by outmarching and outfighting, a story of operational maneuver unlike anything else in the war in terms of how utterly the opponent was dominated by Federal forces that were always two steps ahead.

And conversely, in the Great War, there are countless examples of how the Entente badly squandered its vast superiority in numbers and machines: the Russians' many attempts at launching an offensive in Poland in 1914 and 1915, the Artois-Champagne campaigns in France, the whole prolonged nightmare on the Somme, the twin disasters of the Nivelle and Passchendaele offensives in 1917. Revolution tore Russia apart, sundered Ireland (and might have got more of Britain if not for the resumption of unrestricted submarine warfare), and after a fashion, showed up in France as well - each time, a result of not merely military errors but political errors. The Entente powers came perilously close to losing the entire war in March 1918, and if not for Ludendorff's poor operational decision-making they might very well have done so.
 

Taking a look at the pre-war industrial output, the Soviets and the USA alone were already possessing a much higher industrial capacity than Germany had when they were already all but on full war footing and that is before those nations went to go to war economy. Germany never even had enough resources to build enough weapons to even theoretically stand a chance, let alone actually produce all that, let alone crew all that equipment. Italy and Japan were the same picture, Japan in fact even worse as they already were on the verge of collapse due to a simple oil/gas embargo.
 
The retrospective of history is easy of course, but it doesn't change the fact that you could put a couple stasticians in a library with industrial and population growth data and they'd tell you the Axis would be insane to try a war and actually thinking they had any chance to win short of their enemies simply letting them without giving a fight.

 
And yet that doesn't work with the First World War.
 

Logistics, strategy, lack of counter strategy and on-the-field tactics are all force multipliers, yes. But you can only multiply whatever force you have so much until you hit your hard cap ... and that hard cap was so woefully lower for the Axis than it was to the Allies that their only hope was the Allies wouldn't even put up a fight. Which is exactly what happened in France and the early stage with the Soviets (one due to horrible planning, the other due to ignoring espionage reports). France together with the british Expeditionary Force had enough experienced troops to grind down the German offensive and the much famed strategical brilliance of going through the Ardennes is little more than pure luck. That troop train going throgh those forests wasn't the largest flanking manouvre of WW2, it was the largest traffic jam of WW2. Had any of the allied sentry forces down there noticed them, even the deployed third rate/reservist troops could have stalled all progress to such a crawl that reinforcements could have arrived early enough to turn the Ardennes into the world's biggest scrapyard.
 
It was pure luck that WW2 didn't end right then and there, same as it was pure luck that Stalin ignored a plethora of intelligence reports (the Soviets had bar none THE best espionage system on the entire world!) that were telling exactly what Germany was up to, including troop movement reports galore and everything someone in power would need only take ONE look at and see what's going on.


You reference a 'hard cap' to military potential, and claim that any statistician could have figured out that the Axis powers were screwed. The problem is that this 'hard cap' is an entirely imaginary number. It is anti-statistical. We don't know what the maximum potential for the German war machine was in the Second World War; we have guesses, but there is absolutely no statistical basis for claiming that the Wehrmacht had no possibility of possessing the force multipliers to overcome its matériel deficit.

I agree that luck played a significant role in Germany's success in 1940, and luck undoubtedly aided the Wehrmacht in 1941 as well. If anything, though, that just points up just how poor our predictive powers really are. By the numbers, by rights, the German army might well have lost in 1940 - but it got lucky, and it took advantage of the luck it got, and its opponents contributed a fair share of mismanagement...so it won instead. Luck and good force multipliers clearly can overcome a great deal of statistical inferiority. Fog and friction, as always, dwarf the efforts of soldiers and commanders to impose their will on the battlefield.

Look: I am not saying that Germany ought to have won the war, or that it was a shoo-in to win, or that the Allies themselves had to get very lucky to avoid defeat. None of those things is true. What I am saying is that the Allies could not simply crack open the champagne as soon as they heard Germany had invaded Poland in September 1939. It was not just that there were five and a half years of hard fighting ahead. It's that they had to learn how to fight the right way. At the risk of being blindingly obvious, the armies that got annihilated by Germany in 1939, 1940, and 1941 were not trying to lose. They were, in fact, trying very hard to win, or at least (in the case of the French and British) to not lose. Yet they were wiped out anyway. That they would eventually develop into tempered tools of war was not a foregone conclusion. But that development did happen. It's documented and everything. And it is inextricable from the eventual Allied victory.
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#267
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. There was no 'Zerg rush' about it; there has been nothing like 'Zerg rush' in actual military tactics since the nineteenth century. 

Fascinating post, I just have a few questions. You seem very knowledgeable so I will ask!

 

Didn't the Chinese use human wave tactics in the Korean war? They suffered massive casualties and the only advantage they had against American artillery and air superiority was numbers. 

 

Also, I thought the only reason the soviets were able to hold on against Germany was because of American aid in the form of literal tons of food and vehicles, as well as the British and Americans bombing Germany? I read somewhere that American aid allowed the soviets to focus on building tanks and weapons because America was giving them everything else they needed. 



#268
vometia

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I've always liked the old FAMAS. Yes I know, its not such a great rifle but I still like it because its a bullpup with a slick look.  :)


I rather like the EM-2:

Enfield_bullpup_prototype.jpg

Sure, it looks somewhat dated today, but considering it was designed around 1950, I think it was pretty awesome. It and the Taden comprised probably the best modern infantry weapons system that never was, thanks to politics, and I think the .280 still hasn't been bettered as a viable military round.
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#269
Kaiser Arian XVII

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What E-Ro said. At first two years at least in the Eastern front Germany could win the war, but the patriotism of Russians (+the cold!), and Germans slowly losing their advantage in technology over time, and lack of soldiers (in quantity and quality both for west, east and Africa) and lack of resources concluded in losing the war awfully. What is usually forgotten is the effects of War over Germany Economy. Simply this:

 

High maintenance of War + Not enough countries to trade (for resources and products) + Lots of casualties in all fronts => Decreasing state of economy in Germany => Lower Budget for Mass use of Technology (+all the previous reasons) => Losing the war

 

The joke is if Germany hadn't Invaded Russia, Germany could certainly keep its hegemony/dominance over Europe for decades. Neutral Russia would have been very handy to support the war.

 

Also

thanks Eirene, Fidite and bEVEstha for your massive knowledge.


Modifié par Ashur-Arian-Keraunos, 22 janvier 2015 - 05:27 .


#270
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 a significant number of soldiers going to battle didn't even have a gun

enemy at the gates much? you are sad



#271
Kaiser Arian XVII

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I rather like the EM-2:

Enfield_bullpup_prototype.jpg

Sure, it looks somewhat dated today, but considering it was designed around 1950, I think it was pretty awesome. It and the Taden comprised probably the best modern infantry weapons system that never was, thanks to politics, and I think the .280 still hasn't been bettered as a viable military round.

 

Looks like weapons designed post 80s.



#272
Aimi

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Fascinating post, I just have a few questions. You seem very knowledgeable so I will ask!
 
Didn't the Chinese use human wave tactics in the Korean war? They suffered massive casualties and the only advantage they had against American artillery and air superiority was numbers. 
 
Also, I thought the only reason the soviets were able to hold on against Germany was because of American aid in the form of literal tons of food and vehicles, as well as the British and Americans bombing Germany? I read somewhere that American aid allowed the soviets to focus on building tanks and weapons because America was giving them everything else they needed.


"Human wave tactics" are a frustratingly vague term that gets applied to everything from zombies to the PLA to the First World War. There are a lot of people who talk about human waves, and almost none of them actually say what they mean by it. It's kind of hard to parse sometimes! But I'll try.

Some academic historians point to the development of high explosives, plunging-fire artillery, smokeless powder, machine guns, and widely available breech-loading firearms in the late nineteenth century as something called the "firepower revolution in military affairs", a series of technological developments that fundamentally changed the way war worked. They forced armies to dispense with the mass elbow-to-elbow/shoulder-to-shoulder linear formations of old, spreading troops out and creating the phenomenon of the "empty battlefield"; soldiers that formed a slowly moving, tightly packed parade ground formation would simply have been slaughtered. Long before the First World War, offensive tactics revolved around a buildup of fire superiority (whether by small arms or artillery) against an enemy position, ideally employing enfilades to maximize the effect of the fires, then advancing by leaps and bounds from cover to cover until a final rush to drive the enemy out of the position and take it for oneself. That basic set of principles still informs infantry tactics today: suppressing fire and spread-out cover-to-cover movement.

To emphasize: military professionals all over the world were talking about this in the 1860s. They figured out the solution in the 1880s and 1890s - in America, in Japan, in Russia, in Germany, France, and Britain. Chinese soldiers were trained the same way, in many cases by Japanese or American academies.

Part of the problem in the First World War was that these new tactics were not adequately trained; professional soldiers understood them well enough and could apply them to devastating effect, but reservists and conscripts could not, and went into battle ill-prepared for the storm of steel that awaited them, and were massacred. (In Germany, one famous instance of this, the "Massacre of the Innocents", or Kindermord, at Langemarck on 10 November 1914, was even turned into a story of patriotic sacrifice for the fatherland - rather than recriminations at how the fatherland's military leaders committed untrained troops to battle. The German press had a field day making heroes out of the 'Langemarck martyrs', and claimed they were all beardless schoolchildren barely of military age, which was not true, but it's unquestionable that they were very poorly trained no matter how old they were.) It took a long time for any of the belligerents to develop the training fast enough to teach their own troops, and fast enough to account for all of the countermeasures the enemy was developing.

When people talk about "human wave", sometimes they mean that untrained dash by ill-prepared mobs of reservists and conscripts, men and boys who have no clue what they're doing and are seized by enthusiasm and patriotic fervor and sheer bloody-mindedness to overwhelm the enemy in front of them. But sometimes they mean "any attack that involves a large number of troops"; I've seen references to American Marines in the Pacific as using "human wave tactics" against Japanese positions, even though those Marines were doing the same fire-and-movement stuff described earlier. And sometimes "human wave" just means anything that involves infantry unsupported by armor, even if those infantry are well trained in developing fire superiority and whatnot.

I don't know much about the Korean War specifically. But I know that the PLA had just fought the final act of a decades-long civil war, and that many of the veterans of that war served in Korea, especially early on before American airpower and Allied artillery wiped them out. I also know that the tactics of the Chinese Civil War were not a regression to the old-school nineteenth century linear tactics: its veterans were skillful soldiers with a healthy respect for defensive firepower. So I would hazard a guess that if people refer to human waves in Korea, they are talking about the sheer numbers the Chinese deployed, rather than retrograde tactics - although as the war dragged on and the Civil War veterans died or were rotated home, I could easily imagine poorly-trained conscript replacements employing lunatic mad dashes against enemy lines with little thought to their own safety. I also think that American air superiority and fire superiority nullified what Chinese artillery managed to reach the peninsula; the Americans have always had really good artillery.

As for the Soviet war against Germany, the short answer is 'more or less'. I think that the best way to describe the Allied victory against Germany was as a team effort. The Red Army did not do it alone, nor did the US Air Force, much as both of those groups like to claim the prime spot. It is hard to imagine the Red Army successfully pushing back against the Wehrmacht without American Lend-Lease locomotives and trucks (let alone tanks and planes), but that gear would have been useless to the Americans without the millions of Soviet soldiers who fought with it and in most cases died with it. Similarly, the American air force's strategic bombing was very important in restricting German industrial mobilization and in wiping out Germany's own air superiority through the destruction of Germany's air fuel supplies, but those bombing raids would have been meaningless without ground forces ready to use those openings and punch through in the west and east.
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#273
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Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, I appreciate it!
 

I don't know much about the Korean War specifically. But I know that the PLA had just fought the final act of a decades-long civil war, and that many of the veterans of that war served in Korea, especially early on before American airpower and Allied artillery wiped them out. I also know that the tactics of the Chinese Civil War were not a regression to the old-school nineteenth century linear tactics: its veterans were skillful soldiers with a healthy respect for defensive firepower. So I would hazard a guess that if people refer to human waves in Korea, they are talking about the sheer numbers the Chinese deployed, rather than retrograde tactics - although as the war dragged on and the Civil War veterans died or were rotated home, I could easily imagine poorly-trained conscript replacements employing lunatic mad dashes against enemy lines with little thought to their own safety. I also think that American air superiority and fire superiority nullified what Chinese artillery managed to reach the peninsula; the Americans have always had really good artillery.

To clarify, this is exactly what I meant by human wave tactics. I realize now from the examples you gave that it is a vague term.



#274
Lotion Soronarr

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It's done in movies by big guys. However, you need to carry not only the gun and the ammo (which at 120 rounds/sec will be heavy) but also a couple of car batteries to power the gun. A Gatling mechanism gun is driven by an exterior force. It does not use recoil or gas pressure for operation.

 

It CAN be. Real soldiers tried it.

But ammo it's hard as hell and ammo is a huge issue. Ultimatively, it's only really effective if mounted on a veichle.

 

A miniguns ROF is 3000-6000 rounds per minute. Some gattling guns can go a lot higher (there's a russian one that can manage 24000)



#275
Fidite Nemini

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enemy at the gates much? you are sad

 

 

Yes, I am very sad indeed. Sad that you obviously never heard of shtrafbats (penal battalions). The movie didn't pull that idea out of nothing, you know ...

 

Do you wish to go deeper into that part of history, or was a cheap ad hominem attack against me all you wanted?