78 réponses à ce sujet

[BronzTrooper]

Except they aren't owned in every sense of the word. In Tevinter, the slave still retains their mind and soul, or at least soul if they are a thrall from blood magic. In the Qun, even the mindless workers still have their souls as untouched since the Qun doesn't like dealing in magic stuff. But with the ancient elves, sure it seems they are in control but at a moment's notice their master can assume control of them. The Sentinels couldn't leave the temple because the well demanded they stay, and only after you or Morrigan who agrees with you have drinken the well do they do other things, so they are following yours or Morrigan's will. Their fates were never in their own hands. Solas expands on that in the romance. 

 

Abelas stresses that whoever absorbs the knowledge from the Well will become bound to Mythal as the Sentinels were, so they weren't following Morrigan or the Inquisitor's will.  Their role was to prevent the Well from being despoiled, which they failed yet were not killed as a result, as would've been the result had they been Tevinter slaves guarding a Tevinter artifact, hence why I brought it up in the first place.  After the Well was despoiled, they simply left, implying that without the Well to guard, nothing was preventing them from leaving and living their own lives.

 

I'll give you the soul argument in regards to the Tevinter slaves and the Qun's mindless workers.  I was simply asking a hypothetical philosophy question in regards to that.  As for those bound to the service of Mythal, I'll refer to the scene where you meet Flemeth after absorbing the knowledge from the Well and Morrigan gets hostile.  iirc, Flemeth makes a gesture of some sort and the Inquisitor draws out their knife, forces Morrigan back against the statue, and holds the knife at her throat.  The Inquisitor is still fully in control of their mind and, by extension, their soul, yet the rest of their body is beyond their control.  To me, this is reminiscent of the Reapers taking control of an indoctrinated person who has had Reaper implants embedded in their body.  While they are still in control of their minds, they had absolutely no control over their body.

 

In DA, blood magic also can do this to someone (Nessa in Act III of DA2 being controlled by Huon comes to mind).  Whether or not what Flemeth/Mythal does is blood magic is unknown.

[Walrider]

I meant the bit above. So far as we know there were no elven nobles who owned slaves and Solas doesn't say a peep on the subject beyond vaguely stating that they were slave markings.He doesn't give any context to it. What we have seen of the ancients, the ones marked with the vallaslin belonged to the gods, marks to show who's looking through their eyes so to speak.

 

As for why Solas doesn't have it's quite simple. He's a god. More spesificly a god of rebellion. Anything that infringes on free will would be anathema to him.

 

I think the bit of what Solas said combined with what Felassan said to Briala in The Masked Empire; "And who do you think cleaned the streets? Lit the lights? Baked in the kitchens? There were no other people to do these things; we were the people, nobles and the poor." And then there was the scene - earlier or later, I can't remember - where the stumble across the ancient slumbering elf with their throat slit, and Felassan comments on how it was likely a servant who did it to their former master. To me, added with what Solas says, gives the image of the ancient elves utilizing slavery.

 

I could be wrong, of course. But to be fair, most ancient and great civilizations did utilize slavery and/or indentured servitude in some way, shape or form. Iwouldn't condemn the evles as a people for it, it'd just make them seem more 'human' to me.

[Walrider]

WHOOPS
 

[BronzTrooper]

And, yet again, as was already said in this thread...

 

DO WE ACTUALLY KNOW ANY DETAILS ABOUT ARLATHAN'S TAKE ON SLAVERY?

 

In caps to emphasize...

 

We should wait for more information to determine whether Elvhenan was no better than Tevinter.

 

Nothing definitive, but we are basing our theories on what the Sentinels in the Temple of Mythal were like, considering how they were likely around well before the fall of the Elvhenan.

 

I think if any of the Elven Pantheon could body hop, it would be the trickster Fen'Harel. If they were just powerful elves, perhaps that is how they avoided the endless dream and thus appeared godlike to the others. 

 

Obviously Mythal possesses this ability, but we don't know how each of the Creators relate to each other in terms of power, so, for all we know, they could all be equally powered, but in different ways, only sharing 1 or 2 abilities if they shared any at all.

 

As for the Uthenera argument, from what we've learned, the Uthenera was entirely up optional, though due to tradition, it was typically done at a certain age.

 

Fair enough. I suppose it's just gut feeling that Solas/Fen'Harel hasn't body-hopped. Mythal, in what was revealed by Abelas, was actively murdered at one point, and needed a new host. From what Solas said, he just slumbered for a long stretch of time, in contrast to Mythal.

 

'Course, since he's a trickster, he could've meant that he spent a long time looking for a body to take, but I don't think that's likely. And then there's Abelas's comment to Solas of, "Elves like you?" when Solas encourages him to seek out other places/people, and to leave the Well of Sorrows.

 

After the epilogue, the comment seemed rather suspicious.

 

Ancient elves were immortal, after all. If Fen'Harel didn't have a reason to body-hop, why would he? It's not like there'd be anyone around to recognize him. And those few who could likely wouldn't point out who he actually is anyway, if only because they're ancient secrets in of themselves.

 

But, again, just gut feeling. There's nowhere near enough information for me to be entirely steadfast in this.

 

Well, first off, Fen'Harel is the God of Rebellion, not the Trickster God.

 

Second, it seems that Abelas has a general idea of what happened in the rest of Thedas, so he could've just meant city elves when he said that.  Doubtful, but it's certainly plausible.

 

As for the body-hopping... I'll give you that, but like I said, he may have body-hopping to blend into modern society better since an elf with vallaslin wandering around in human lands was bound to attract attention.  We don't know whether or not the Creators were simply very powerful mages, gods, or a unique form of spirits.  If they were very powerful mages, I could see them not getting vallaslin as a result.  If they were gods or a unique form of spirits, they likely needed a host in order to live outside the Fade, which would likely be one of the servants in their temples who would wear vallaslin.

[Roamingmachine]

I think the bit of what Solas said combined with what Felassan said to Briala in The Masked Empire; "And who do you think cleaned the streets? Lit the lights? Baked in the kitchens? There were no other people to do these things; we were the people, nobles and the poor." And then there was the scene - earlier or later, I can't remember - where the stumble across the ancient slumbering elf with their throat slit, and Felassan comments on how it was likely a servant who did it to their former master. To me, added with what Solas says, gives the image of the ancient elves utilizing slavery.

 

I could be wrong, of course. But to be fair, most ancient and great civilizations did utilize slavery and/or indentured servitude in some way, shape or form. Iwouldn't condemn the evles as a people for it, it'd just make them seem more 'human' to me.

 

I'm certainly not disputing that a class system of some sort was in place. There were the rulers, gods in this case, and diffrent degrees of the ruled. I am questioning that there necessarily was slavery as we know it and as it practised in Tevinter. The elf with its throat slit actually has a parellel in the game. In the Temple of Dirthamen you can read a story in the veilfire runes of the days after the gods disappeared, written by those who experienced it. The priests there turned on eachother over what power was left and on the high-priest who held his position by divine ordinance.His refusal to go along with what the other priests wanted costed him dearly. To me, things like these tell the story of a class society that had the basis of its power structure, heck the reason of its very existance, suddenly removed with nothing to replace it.

 

All in all, we still know next to nothing about the society. I could be entirely wrong on Arlathan not having conventional slaves, there simply isn't anything to point one way or the other, but i am fairly certain that ones wearing the vallaslin were something entirely diffrent.

[SamanthaJ]

The marks could have had multiple purposes. Some people could have willingly taken them, making them servants rather than slaves. Others could have been forcibly branded, making them slaves rather than servants.

 

Corypheus also says "Look at you, wearing slave markings with pride." So that's two people that say it. Plus there is the whole deal of the ancient elven gods not necessarily being nice. Like this about Falon'Din:

 

Solas: I do not believe they sing songs about Falon’Din’s vanity.

The Inquisitor: Do you know any legends?

Solas: It is said Falon’Din’s appetite for adulation was so great, he began wars to amass more worshippers. The blood of those who wouldn’t bow filled lakes as wide as oceans. Mythal rallied the gods, once the shadow of Falon’Din’s hunger stretched across her own people. It was almost too late. Falon’Din only surrendered when his brethen bloodied him in his own temple.

The Inquisitor: No story is dramatic if the people in it act sensibly.

Solas: Yes. Most tales paint Falon’Din’s stubbornness second only to his self-regard.

 

I don't think Arlathan was any better than any other ancient empire that existed ever.

[Dean_the_Young]

Then wouldn't that still mean that vallaslin do show respect to the elven gods... 

 

As slaves. Yes.

 

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[BronzTrooper]

The marks could have had multiple purposes. Some people could have willingly taken them, making them servants rather than slaves. Others could have been forcibly branded, making them slaves rather than servants.

 

Corypheus also says "Look at you, wearing slave markings with pride." So that's two people that say it.

 

tbf, he could be referring to when the elves were slaves of the Imperium.

 

As for the servants/slaves distinction, yeah, that seems appropriate.  It could've gone the route of who became golems via Caridin's Anvil of the Void, originally starting out as being willing servants only, but eventually becoming abused and used as a punishment.

[Lenimph]

As slaves. Yes.

 

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

They are mutually exclusive to Solas ( He aggressively says "No" when the inquisitor says its a tribute to the gods) And obviously he isn't a trustworthy faucet of information. I really do think he just doesn't want to see his girl with another god on her face since it's romance exclusive, as he doesn't tell non romanced inquisitors about it, even though he should, showing he's doing it out of some personal desire.

 

But anyway my point with the Sentinels having the markings seems to imply that they might not be something forced, or like many other people have stated that modern ideas of slavery might not fit with the ancient elven ideas. I'm not denying that they might represent some kind of servitude but vallaslin always had the connotation of dedicating one's self in a way to one of the pantheon gods...

 

Also where exactly does all this stuff about vallaslin being put on slaves by their noble elves for the gods they favor come from in game? I see it on the wiki but I never saw Solas say that, he just vaguely called them slave markings? Same with Coriphefish. Exact sources please.

[herkles]

I regard the Vallaslin, at least how the sentienals were having it were similar to Geises from celtic mythology. These were magically binding taboos, ie don't eat dog, don't hunt a certain boar, don't refuse food as a guest and so on. to break the Geis, which often happened in a number of the myths, was to bring doom and usually death. CuChulain in one story was only killed after he broke his geises, not eating dog meat and not refusing what was offered to him by a host. I kind of view the temple of Mythal's Vallaslin being similar.

[Sah291]

In DA, blood magic also can do this to someone (Nessa in Act III of DA2 being controlled by Huon comes to mind). Whether or not what Flemeth/Mythal does is blood magic is unknown.

I wouldn't be surprised. In one banter Merrill and Fenris talk about his lyrium tattoos, and how the Dalish tattoos are similar except that they are made with blood (vallaslin means "blood writing"). So I wondered if they weren't originally some type of blood magic spell. Like how the Templars use phylacteries to track mages. At any rate DA2 did kind of foreshadow the vallaslin as slave branding....that is clearly what Fenris considered his markings to be.

[Tielis]

I regard the Vallaslin, at least how the sentienals were having it were similar to Geises from celtic mythology. These were magically binding taboos, ie don't eat dog, don't hunt a certain boar, don't refuse food as a guest and so on. to break the Geis, which often happened in a number of the myths, was to bring doom and usually death. CuChulain in one story was only killed after he broke his geises, not eating dog meat and not refusing what was offered to him by a host. I kind of view the temple of Mythal's Vallaslin being similar.

 

This.  If you have the Arcane perk when you talk to Morrigan about the Well, you can say something about "feeling a geas" (although with the British female voice it comes out more like "gas" -- I was looking around for green smoke).

 

http://www.oxforddic...an_english/geas

[Addai]

If you're on friendly terms with Solas and talk to him after drinking from the Well, then you see there's no discrepancy- he considers binding yourself to an elven god to be slavery and doesn't approve.

[MoonDrummer]

Maybe they just work in the same fashion as dwarven casteless tattoos.

[Lenimph]

If you're on friendly terms with Solas and talk to him after drinking from the Well, then you see there's no discrepancy- he considers binding yourself to an elven god to be slavery and doesn't approve.

Uh yeah we weren't talking about drinking from the well but I ask why doesn't he mention the vallaslin then because it's the perfect opportunity? There is still a discrepancy. 

[LOLandStuff]

They were elves guarding a temple of one of their gods and no doubt worshiped. Why wouldn't they have tattoos of their god on their face? They wouldn't stay there in the first place.

Besides, by wearing them they honored their gods. And they extended that honor to their salves as well. It's not like you have opinions when you're a slave.

[TheComfyCat]

If the elven gods were actually just ancient powerful elves, then perhaps the Sentinels were slaves of Mythal who she tasked with guarding her temple. She could have used magic to bind them, ensuring they remained to protect the Well.

[Ieldra]

Because like Gamer above me says, the slavery of Solas talks about isn't quite the one we think when we hear the word.  Those wearing the vallaslin in Arlathan seem to have been bound to the gods, body and soul, and served as their eyes, ears and hands. We do not know whether the ones marked thusly were willing or not, but certainly their will afterwards was not entirely their own, thus to Solas calls them slave marks.

So, it isn't slavery if you're bound to the will of a deity? As I see it, Solas is perfectly correct using the term.

[MoonDrummer]

So, it isn't slavery if you're bound to the will of a deity? As I see it, Solas is perfectly correct using the term.

I think that because thy were gods the arlathen elves didn't mind being slaves, if we look at the codex from the temple I dirthaman and the one you get about abelas after drinking from the well, they seem to be more upset about the gods disappearing, than ecstatic about being freed.

In saying that these are temple slaves who may have been treated differently/better than the average floor scrubber.

[Tielis]

So, it isn't slavery if you're bound to the will of a deity? As I see it, Solas is perfectly correct using the term.

 

I agree, but my point was that the sentinels may have been willing slaves, the vallaslin being their binding.  "Blood writing" as in blood magic, a geas.

 

It does seem to me that there is an element of romantic possessiveness with Solas, however, since he only offers to remove them from the Q if he is romancing her.

[SamanthaJ]

 

Start around 2:35

 

"No. They are slave markings, or at least they were in the time of ancient Arlathan."

 

"My clan's Keeper said they honored the gods. These are their symbols."

 

"Yes. That's right. A noble would mark his slaves to honor the god he worshiped."

[Addai]

Uh yeah we weren't talking about drinking from the well but I ask why doesn't he mention the vallaslin then because it's the perfect opportunity? There is still a discrepancy.

In your OP you asked why he calls it slavery when the temple sentinels have them. Because they're slaves. I'm sure he doesn't bring it up to Abelas because Abelas already knows what it means- as he tries to warn you about.

[ComedicSociopathy]

The way I understand it, the nobles and priesthood wore their vallaslin a sign of devotion to the Creators. The nobility in turn put vallaslin on their slaves as a token of their respect to them, symbolical representing how they shared ownership over the slaves. 

 

In end though does it really matter what the vallaslin supposed to back in the days of Arlathan? The point is that empire owned slaves, or at very least regulated a portion of their populace to minimal servitude while its nobles lived in their magic sky castles. The fact those slaves decided to kill off the Dreamers after the Creators vanished shows to me that this system of religious exploitation was probably not benign. That makes them only slightly better then Tevinter or Orlais in my opinion. That's classic Dragon Age for you though, everyone turns out to be asshat at some point. 

[Willowhugger]

As slaves. Yes.

 

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

 

I also am not sure what would be the problem with the marks having a figurative and literal meaning.

You could have literal slaves and priests marking themselves as slaves to the gods.

The two aren't exclusive.

[AWTEW]

Basically Solas didn't want to see another god's name written on his girls face from what I can tell...

Except that he dumps her right afterwards, so why did he bother?