78 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

tbf, he could be referring to when the elves were slaves of the Imperium.

 

Except this raises the question of why would the Tevinters brand their slaves with markings that are clearly elven in design? If they were being used in the Ancient Imperium, it strikes me as being something the Elven slaves were doing to themselves and the magisters simply tolerated the practice?

 

Of course, it could be that Corypheus was referring to them being used in antiquity in Arlathan, since it stands to reason that someone who came up with a plan to punch a hole in reality, is the sort of person who's spent a lot of time around books and is extremely well-read?

 

From all the artefacts and magical tricks that the Tevinters apparently picked up from the Ancient Elves, things that no doubt he probably used at some point in the ritual, it strikes me that Corypheus knows a thing or two about Elven history and lore?

[BronzTrooper]

Except this raises the question of why would the Tevinters brand their slaves with markings that are clearly elven in design? If they were being used in the Ancient Imperium, it strikes me as being something the Elven slaves were doing to themselves and the magisters simply tolerated the practice?

 

Of course, it could be that Corypheus was referring to them being used in antiquity in Arlathan, since it stands to reason that someone who came up with a plan to punch a hole in reality, is the sort of person who's spent a lot of time around books and is extremely well-read?

 

From all the artefacts and magical tricks that the Tevinters apparently picked up from the Ancient Elves, things that no doubt he probably used at some point in the ritual, it strikes me that Corypheus knows a thing or two about Elven history and lore?

 

I think that the elven slaves of Tevinter marked themselves with vallaslin and the Tevinter magisters allowed it because they didn't see it as a sign of insubordination.  The slaves in North America had their own culture while in the plantations, so who's to say that the elven slaves didn't have their own culture that survived the fall of the Elvhenan?

[SamanthaJ]

 

Start around 2:35

 

"No. They are slave markings, or at least they were in the time of ancient Arlathan."

 

"My clan's Keeper said they honored the gods. These are their symbols."

 

"Yes. That's right. A noble would mark his slaves to honor the god he worshiped."

[Roamingmachine]

 

 

Start around 2:35

 

"No. They are slave markings, or at least they were in the time of ancient Arlathan."

 

"My clan's Keeper said they honored the gods. These are their symbols."

 

"Yes. That's right. A noble would mark his slaves to honor the god he worshiped."

 

 

Interesting. That statement clashes with the priests of mythal wearing the vallaslin and the effect of the geas, yet it isn't Solas's way to outright lie. I feel we are missing too many pieces of the puzzle to shift out the truth here. Thanks for posting the vid

[Lenimph]

Interesting. That statement clashes with the priests of mythal wearing the vallaslin and the effect of the geas, yet it isn't Solas's way to outright lie. I feel we are missing too many pieces of the puzzle to shift out the truth here. Thanks for posting the vid

Hopefully we'll find out someday. 

 

As it is though, I do not think it would be wise to take Solas' words as whole truth.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Basically Solas didn't want to see another god's name written on his girls face from what I can tell... 

 

Yep. That Bald Elven God wants Wolf marks all over his female Lavellan...Fade touched Wolf marks....

 

Servitude in Elvhenan might be divided into 2 types. One is the slave type and the other is a religious servant type...

 

Solas / Fen'Harel is pro freedom at all costs....

[Addai]

Interesting. That statement clashes with the priests of mythal wearing the vallaslin and the effect of the geas, yet it isn't Solas's way to outright lie. I feel we are missing too many pieces of the puzzle to shift out the truth here. Thanks for posting the vid

Why does it clash? The geas is a form of slavery. Do people not listen to Abelas at all? lol

[Tielis]

Why does it clash? The geas is a form of slavery. Do people not listen to Abelas at all? lol

 

Maybe they're too busy looking at his... armor.  (Not that I have videos of him that I regularly watch or anything.)

[Rickdz]

Mmm I've two other options: one concerning the translation of costumes from a culture to another, and the second about dragons and dragons' blood.

Note how in our own history so many costumes passed from a culture to the next one, or to a close one influencing it. For example the roman empire: it influenced the nearby cultures. Also the Hellenic one. And what always happen in the beginning? The uprising culture seeks to imitate the one that thinks is the best and his costumes (Hellenic->Roman, Roman->Medieval peoples; ecc ecc). So it is possible that the game developers have thought that way creating thedas: Elvenhan->Tevinter and Dwarven empire; Tevinter->kingdoms from fractured tevinter and so on. If in Elvenhan there was a practice similar to slavery the tev adapted this practice to their own culture. And later, with fenris, I suppose the magister were trying to create a better form of vallaslin, with lyrium that is naturally magical. Vallaslin are made with blood, and doesn't have magical properties but maybe they had in arlathan because the elves were MAGICAL being.. and so their blood? In fact, dragon blood too (immortal beings) have magical properties (reaver; genesis of the qunari people; etc). More to say is that the tatoo practice to sign lower classes could have been passed from arlathan to the dwarves, thought the use is different, as different was the use of slavery in tevinter (every cultures adopted some costumes and have it their ways, no? Points of view).

One of these practice is also blood magic, that was not a dogma in arlathan, or at least Solas seems to have said that. And this is strange cause the only class of magic that grant power over other beings is welcomed by the god of rebellion. The same god says also that is the use of that magic to be condemned. So maybe he was referring to blood magic binding elves to their gods through vallaslin.

In the end, flemeth is rather interested in Urthemiel soul and eventually absorbed it. And Flemeth/Mythal grant the power to shape shifting into dragon form. In fact mythal is represented with two dragon wings. Archdemons (corrupted dragons) can do the body-hop and flemeth too. All the old gods are maybe the powerful and immortal souls of dragons. The elven pantheon is composed by the creators (as flemeth is) and the forgottens. Maybe the forgottens are the dragons that had eventually becomes the archdemons. They were cast to an abyss, in fact and the creators were sealed in the fade. The funny thing melting the andraste-maker story and this of the elven pantheon..? Fen'harel=the maker ahahahah don't think so, but it is funny

[BronzTrooper]

In the end, flemeth is rather interested in Urthemiel soul and eventually absorbed it. And Flemeth/Mythal grant the power to shape shifting into dragon form. In fact mythal is represented with two dragon wings. Archdemons (corrupted dragons) can do the body-hop and flemeth too. All the old gods are maybe the powerful and immortal souls of dragons. The elven pantheon is composed by the creators (as flemeth is) and the forgottens. Maybe the forgottens are the dragons that had eventually becomes the archdemons. They were cast to an abyss, in fact and the creators were sealed in the fade. The funny thing melting the andraste-maker story and this of the elven pantheon..? Fen'harel=the maker ahahahah don't think so, but it is funny

 

Yeah, these theories have been floating around BSN for some time.  The Fen'Harel = the Maker one has pretty much been debunked as of DA:I, but the others still remain.

 

Also, the Well of Sorrows, which is essentially a collection of elven knowledge from the times of the ancient Elvhenan, granted Morrigan the ability to shapeshift into a dragon if you let her take a dip.  This hints towards the elves of the Elvhenan studying dragons and, possibly, shapeshifting into dragons and other creatures themselves.  Considering how FleMythal can shapeshift into a dragon herself and has a dragon bound to her (only available if the DR was not preformed in DA:O), it suggests that the Elvhenan was more knowledgeable about dragons than ancient Tevinter.

 

Actually, since dragons and the ancient elves are both supposed to be pretty much immortal (as in they don't die of old age), maybe they are related in some way?  It's possible, considering how it's heavily hinted that the qunari are possibly related to dragons, and it would also make sense.  Maybe this will be cleared up in a DLC or in DA4?

[Eliastion]

One thing about vallaslin being slave-markings that I wish the f!inquisitor could call Solas out on is that its meaning in Arlathan has little bearing on its modern meaning - Solas is just unable to see it by how much he's stuck in the past with total disregard for any aspect of Dalish culture. He despises modern elves, both Dalish and city elves, has no respect for their culture and that's why he can't notice the huge difference between the tattoos used once by nobles to brand slaves and modern vallaslin. Just think about it - the nobles in Arlathan used Vallaslin to brand their slaves with marks referring to their (nobles') favored gods. But this meaning (as slave marking) holds only as long as there is a noble to choose the god. When there is no noble, just the young elf that gets his face tattooed as part of his coming-of-age ceremony, suddenly it has nothing to do with slavery anymore, on contrary: HE chose the god HE is the master of his own fate. It pretty much becomes a declaration: "Now I'm an adult, I'm ready to take my life in my own hands, from now on I'm my own master". In fact I find it likely that that's precisely how (and why) the art of Vallaslin survived after the fall of Arlathan - it's not that the survivors had any warm feelings for slavery. It's just that the meaning of tattoos changed 180 degrees just by handing the decision to the one receiving vallaslin. It's a small change but suddenly former slave marking becomes a silent declaration of defiance, and one that is likely to get misinterpreted by tevinter masters at that. With that interpretation it starts to sound quite plausible that the practice survived those couple hundred years of slavery and became source of pride, with original meaning lost somewhere along the way, erased from collective memory by a bit romanticized interpretation of notion that "once our people were free in their own land"  

 

Another subject of this thread is the Well of Sorrows - and I would like to argue against the idea that it was used to enslave the guardians. I'd say that it was another way around - the guardians were slaves (probably) but there are different kinds of slaves and their status isn't necessarily as low as one might think. In this case, they were the warriors-guardians-protectors. Priests, in a way. But I don't think they were bound by magic - in fact they were the cause of the Well's secondary power, not its victims! Abelas reveals that before their death, servants of Mythal would pass their knowledge to the well - but an Inquisitor with arcane knowledge perk gives us an analysis saying that they in fact left something more: their will. A person that drinks from the Well (destroying it in the process, mind you!) takes in all the knowledge, but also all the will. Suddenly in his head there are hundreds if not thousands of little voices that have one thing in common: their duty to serve Mythal. And now all of them are a part of him. Even if the drinker's mind stays more-or-less intact, they're there, somewhere in the back, perhaps, in the shadow - but how can one really defy Mythal with them all in his head?

Abelas says that the one drinking from the well will be "bound as we are bound" but that doesn't necessarily mean "bound with the same spell" - the risk of literally inheriting the will of all those priests kinda fits the description. Oh, and in my opinion is much more interesting than "ancient mind-control magic" There's always some ancient mind-controlling magic, but a literal conclave of a couple thousands dead priests in your head? Now that's something  

[Arlee]

Uh yeah we weren't talking about drinking from the well but I ask why doesn't he mention the vallaslin then because it's the perfect opportunity? There is still a discrepancy. 

 

The only reason he tells a a romanced Inquisitor about the markings is because he had planned on telling her the truth about himself; but he chickens out of that which then results in him deciding he had to break-up with her. His plan wasn't literally to tell her a potentially crushing truth and then break-up with her He never mentions it to a non-romanced Inquisitor because he never feels like he needs to tell the truth about himself thus it never comes up.

 

Yep. That Bald Elven God wants Wolf marks all over his female Lavellan...Fade touched Wolf marks....

 

Servitude in Elvhenan might be divided into 2 types. One is the slave type and the other is a religious servant type...

 

Solas / Fen'Harel is pro freedom at all costs....

 

Actually I view it as pretty much the same thing. Abelas and his fellows are servants who guard the well. That is their duty and they are bound to it, meaning even if they woke-up one day and decided they had enough of it, they couldn't just walk away. Thus, they are pretty much slaves, even more so if the binding makes it so they can't even want to leave. They only leave because the with the well being used there was nothing to protect anymore.

 

Drinking from the well is giving up part of your own control of your own will, which is something Solas views as slavery as well because even though you chose to drink if later you want to go against Mythal for any reason you won't be able to. Just look at Morrigan when she drinks; she absolutly wants to attack Flemeth but cannot.

 

It is perhaps a broad definition of slavery, but it seems like a pretty valid view to me.

[myahele]

Sombody onece theorized that if/when the elven gods are released that they'll use the Dalish that have their Vallaslin as mind-controlled servents (or similar) as they engage in a war of reconquest.

[BHRamsay]

It would be interesting to see if Solas removes the markings of someone who has the Dread Wolf tattoos

[Addai]

It would be interesting to see if Solas removes the markings of someone who has the Dread Wolf tattoos

There is no known Fen'Harel vallaslin. It's not in the list the artists released. If there ever was one, Fen'Harel probably abolished it himself.

[Farangbaa]

Isn't the real question here why the *bleeping bleeping bleep* breaks up with you after he removes them?

[Iakus]

Interesting. That statement clashes with the priests of mythal wearing the vallaslin and the effect of the geas, yet it isn't Solas's way to outright lie. I feel we are missing too many pieces of the puzzle to shift out the truth here. Thanks for posting the vid

I see a similarity to it and the masks of Orlais.

 

The noble Houses all have thier own designs, which the members of that house wear.  And the servants of that house also wear the same design on thier masks, just less fancy.

 

But it is meant to show they all served that House.

[Rickdz]

It would be interesting to see if Solas removes the markings of someone who has the Dread Wolf tattoos

I don't think that fen'harel possessed its own tattoos. If his only purpose is freedom, why having a symbol for slaves? If the other "gods" were all powerful noble elves, it's not said that the dread wolf was the same. Sincerely, I see the dread wolf as a mix between "Gandalf" and "Loki". Maybe he was a wanderer between the reigns of the other gods (both the good and the evil ones) seeking to maintain justice trough his trickery methods.

[Rickdz]

Yeah, these theories have been floating around BSN for some time.  The Fen'Harel = the Maker one has pretty much been debunked as of DA:I, but the others still remain.
 
Also, the Well of Sorrows, which is essentially a collection of elven knowledge from the times of the ancient Elvhenan, granted Morrigan the ability to shapeshift into a dragon if you let her take a dip.  This hints towards the elves of the Elvhenan studying dragons and, possibly, shapeshifting into dragons and other creatures themselves.  Considering how FleMythal can shapeshift into a dragon herself and has a dragon bound to her (only available if the DR was not preformed in DA:O), it suggests that the Elvhenan was more knowledgeable about dragons than ancient Tevinter.
 
Actually, since dragons and the ancient elves are both supposed to be pretty much immortal (as in they don't die of old age), maybe they are related in some way?  It's possible, considering how it's heavily hinted that the qunari are possibly related to dragons, and it would also make sense.  Maybe this will be cleared up in a DLC or in DA4?

Yavana, Morrigan's sister, said that the blood of the dragons is the blood of the world. I think that, if there will ever be a "great final chapter" for the dragon age series it will be around the dragons and their story. The title is "DRAGON age" and dragons, until now, haven't played such a big role. They have returned, yes. And both flemeth and morrigan said that a great change is coming.
The main role they have played is dying well and happen to be good armors ahah

[Qun00]

Well, tbh, Solas' definition of slavery is probably different from what we'd consider slavery.  He despises the Qun, saying that the Qunari are mindless and not allowed to think for themselves.  Solas probably considers being in the servitude of one of the Creators like the Sentinels are as being slavery, hence why he really doesn't like it if you absorb the knowledge from the Well of Sorrows.
 
The way I see it, the slavery that existed during the time of Arlathan wasn't the Tevinter kind of slavery, but actually a religious servitude that could be misconstrued as slavery from a distance.  This would explain why the Sentinels in the Temple of Mythal wear vallaslin.  As for Solas... well, we know he has omitted certain truths from us before, so it wouldn't be surprising if, considering his nature as the God of Rebellion, his views on the servitude of the ancient elves was a bit... colored by his views.

That sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics to get the version you want.

None of it is really hinted or stated anywhere.

[Arlee]

Isn't the real question here why the *bleeping bleeping bleep* breaks up with you after he removes them?

 

Nah the writer for Solas stuff cleared that up. Basically Solas was going to tell her the truth about himself, chickened out and just told her the truth about the vallaslin instead, then after he did that he realized by not telling her the truth about himself staying with her would be wrong so since he couldn't bring himself to be honest with her he broke-up with her.

[BronzTrooper]

Yavana, Morrigan's sister, said that the blood of the dragons is the blood of the world. I think that, if there will ever be a "great final chapter" for the dragon age series it will be around the dragons and their story. The title is "DRAGON age" and dragons, until now, haven't played such a big role. They have returned, yes. And both flemeth and morrigan said that a great change is coming.
The main role they have played is dying well and happen to be good armors ahah

 

Hmm... possibly.  Would be very interesting to see the lore of dragons be explored more in depth.  DA:I seems to be as in depth with dragons as we've gotten so far.

 

That sounds like a lot of mental gymnastics to get the version you want.

None of it is really hinted or stated anywhere.

 

A lot of theories involve mental gymnastics.  Indoctrination Theory is a huge one.  Not to mention that one of the core things about DA is that nothing is as it seems.

 

It was never stated or hinted that Cory could body-hop on death back in DA2, yet so many people bashed on Hawke and were utterly convinced that he was still alive.  And wouldn't you know it, there he is in DA:I as the big bad.

 

Anyway, all we have at this point is our speculations.  Nothing has been confirmed, denied, hinted, or stated as of yet, so people are going to keep coming up with their own theories, however weird they may seem.

[Lulupab]

I think the Vallaslin are a sign that you worship/value the said elven god. Whether your a slave who has it or someone who wants to serve a god willingly it doesn't change what it represents.

[leaguer of one]

Solas may haave straight up lied about it

No he didn't being that he lived then. Remember, he is an elven god.

[leaguer of one]

I see a similarity to it and the masks of Orlais.

 

The noble Houses all have thier own designs, which the members of that house wear.  And the servants of that house also wear the same design on thier masks, just less fancy.

 

But it is meant to show they all served that House.

^This.