234 réponses à ce sujet

[Colonelkillabee]

Well, mages do too here, as they have to be able to fight demons and resist their wiles. But, obviously Tevinter do this with no moral restrictions, and many of them do not fear templars. Templars are... "Quaint" to them at best.

[Colonelkillabee]

Except that they don't know how to counter Templar anti-magic as they never see it and have no idea how to fight without their precious all powerful magic.

I'm taking you changing subjects as you acknowledging that Fiona was unaware of the time magic though...

They have templars in tevinter.

[herkles]

They have templars in tevinter.

but those templars do not have the anti-magic powers that southern templars do. 

[Colonelkillabee]

but those templars do not have the anti-magic powers that southern templars do. 

Ah, I wasn't aware of that.

 

Still, in a fight with mages and templars, mages can still fight back. Now, I still think Fiona was an idiot, but just looking purely at this argument, no one's going to turn a nose up at mages with a reputation that suggests they're more powerful than you.

 

JUST purely at this angle of the argument.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Except that they don't know how to counter Templar anti-magic as they never see it and have no idea how to fight without their precious all powerful magic.

I'm taking you changing subjects as you acknowledging that Fiona was unaware of the time magic though...

 

I am pretty sure she was unaware as she looked genuinely stumped at Alexius' so called "timely arrival". So no, I do not think that his powers would have played a factor in her accepting his help.

 

You are right, as well. You can have Cullen send some templars to help out a magister in a war table mission. It amusing to see his report and learn that the other magisters had no idea what the hell was going on due to their lack of experience with the anti-magic abilities the templars of the south have.  

[Colonelkillabee]

You are right, as well. You can have Cullen send some templars to help out a magister in a war table mission. It amusing to see his report and learn that the other magisters had no idea what the hell was going due to their lack of experience with the anti-magic abilities the templars of the south have.  

HA, well there you go. I didn't remember that one.

[Willowhugger]

Fiona believes the TEMPLARS caused the Breach.

 

THE TEMPLARS.

 

People with no magic but eliminating magic.

 

People who, ALSO, were almost all wiped out themselves in the Breach.

 

Fiona doesn't have a accurate view of the Templars.

 

She has a paranoid Fox Mulder view of them.

 

The Templars were on their last legs and sincere in their desire for peace too.

 

Ironically, this means Fiona was WINNING the war.

Because she doesn't need to destroy the Templars. They're not Darkspawn. She just needs them at the negotiating table.

 

She's kind of a crazy dictator in her bunker, really.

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Unlike the southern Circle Jerkers, Magisters have thousands of years of research available to them. The second they find out about Templar's abilities to reinforce the Veil of whatever it is they do, they'll have 30 of their best researchers on it figuring out ways to counter it. Which would be illegal in the south.

 

So it's not as powerful as you folks think it is.

 

Oh, I do not doubt that in the least, bats. 

[Colonelkillabee]

She has a paranoid Fox Mulder view of them.

Hey... don't insult the Mulder with such a comparison. lol

[Boomshakalakalakaboom]

Hey... don't insult the Mulder with such a comparison. lol

 

Nooo, I have no likes for you! But yes, leave Mulder out of this!

[Colonelkillabee]

Nooo, I have no likes for you! But yes, leave Mulder out of this!

There's always tomorrow. I'll remind you, lol.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Unlike the southern Circle Jerkers, Magisters have thousands of years of research available to them. The second they find out about Templar's abilities to reinforce the Veil of whatever it is they do, they'll have 30 of their best researchers on it figuring out ways to counter it. Which would be illegal in the south.

So it's not as powerful as you folks think it is.

And they haven't bothered to do this research during those thousands of years because...?

And I'm not saying that Templars are invincible, I'm sure with a few captured templars those 30 research assistants could come up with some kind of countermeasure. I just question the intelligence of trading an ally immune to your enemy's most devastating ability for a numerically smaller ally with the same weakness you have. Why did Fiona think that this was an upgrade from a strategic point of view. I'm not seeing anyway to spin it. If they ran away immediatly it would make some sense, but there is no way to make capturing Redcliffe Castle logical from the rebel mage perspective.

[Willowhugger]

I would like to take a moment and give a more sympathetic view to Fiona than most other than "she was an idiot" as well as acknowledge the fact she VERY MUCH did have a choice. My view of Fiona is not that she's a moron or crazy or that she's doing what she has to do.

 

Instead, here's my view of her.

 

 

Fiona, ignoring the whole time-travel shenanigans, is dealing with an unprecedented horrible situation. The sky has opened up in an apocalyptic breach and the mages have been devastated by the massacre. All of her representatives at the Conclave are missing and she has no idea what happened there. It is very clear someone has destroyed the Conclave and very likely people are going to blame the mages because they would be the obvious suspects when someone blows up something Chantry related with magic.

 

*looks at Anders*

 

Fiona, in a word, panicked and was looking for an exit strategy. The mages were already tired of war because the whole point of the conclave is they want to sue for peace. Now, they've been devastated by war. Then Alexius and his minions waltz in under the cover of darkness and explain to her that everything is completely crap and they need to ally with Tevinter who will give them sanctuary if they agree to make a contract.

 

However, it's a deal which is going to get worse by the minute.

 

Fiona has been isolated in Redcliffe by the gigantic magical rift in front of the citadel which keeps everyone penned in so she doesn't know that there ARE survivors of the Conclave on her side. It's just the survivors have joined the Inquisition along with the surviving Templars. Furthermore, the Templars are not only not responsible but sincere in their desire for peace. In short, the war is over except for a bunch of renegade terrorist Templars and terrorist Apostates duking it out.

 

As Alexius causally name drops to her horror and shock, she wasn't even aware they were going to be used as cannon fodder in their war or this deal applied to the children of the mages as well as the adults.

 

In short, Alexius is changing things as he goes along and Fiona is emotionally beaten as well as now under a state controlled by the Venatori. She could throw the Venatori out but is trying to get the mages out. The thing is, of course, the mages are never getting out. Alexius isn't going to deliver them to Tevinter and is not operating with their authority but Pseudo-Skeletor's.

 

Fiona doesn't KNOW that, though.

 

She only realizes how big a fool she's been played by the end, more or less, which is why she can't deliver anything but excuses to Alistair and Anora.

[Dean_the_Young]

Whether it was Alexius' manipulation or something else, Teagan indeed sat on his ass when Templars attacked Redcliff.

 

 

*Citation needed.
 

 

Mages defended the gate

 

*Citation needed that
 

 

and after that Redcliff soldiers are getting ready for battle (you can see them training) because they think Templars are really attacking.

 

 

This one actually does occur... and they were wrong.

 

 

The writing can be blamed here, but the manipulation was real. Everyone believed it and/or fell for it.

 

 

The term for people who fall for verifable misinformation and manipulation is 'gullible.'

[Willowhugger]

BTW, David Gaider has said the Circles are arguably more advanced than Tevinter in terms of magical knowledge. While everyone is assuming the mages there would be more advanced, David says the Magisters don't share their knowledge.

 

Which any scientist will tell you is the basis for rapid development.

And the Circles DO.

[LOLandStuff]

Too bad we can't judge her.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm just saying you're selling the Magisters awfully short. Templars would have an immediate edge, but nothing that can't be countered with alternatives such as blood magic which templars can't dispel since it doesn't come from the Fade or just foreign magic in general (like time magic). And yes I concede that Fiona didn't know about the time magic, but that's just a guess. Perhaps she did know. The game doesn't make light of the fact in either case.

 

The game's pretty indicative that Fiona took Alexius at face value.

 

A bit suspicious, perhaps, but no awareness of time travel or any other super special abilities.

[Willowhugger]

Fiona Calrissian was making a deal with the Devil to protect her people.

The problem is, as Captain Malcolm Reynolds says to Jayne:

"That's what happens when you call the Feds."

 

You can't make a deal with untrustworthy people and assume they'll be trustworthy.

 

Even when it's apparently to their gain to be trustworthy.

 

Fiona learned the hard way that all her deal accomplished was losing her the ability to fight back. The mages were effectively an occupied state under Alexius, even if it is rather ridiculous and they could have overthrown the Tevinter. They had the mistaken impression the Venatori were both stronger than they appeared (being Tevinter and not Tevinter Al-Qaeda) and they had no allies (they had the Inquisition and Fereldan monarchy). Indeed, throwing out Arl Teagan was undoubtedly designed to isolate them from their support network.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Fiona also had the somewhat romanticized view of Tevinter other mages like Anders seem to have.

As Dorian says, more or less, "MAGES don't rule in Tevinter. The nobility does--which is composed of mages"

It's an important difference.

[Dean_the_Young]

BTW, David Gaider has said the Circles are arguably more advanced than Tevinter in terms of magical knowledge. While everyone is assuming the mages there would be more advanced, David says the Magisters don't share their knowledge.

 

Rather, Gaider emphasized that there was no single 'best' in magic in Thedas because different societies had different practicies, focuses, and such. Arguing about who was more 'advanced' was missing that there wasn't a single direction to be advanced in.

[Willowhugger]

I admit, I think it would make more sense if Fiona was being subtly influenced by Blood Magic.

It wouldn't work on a Grand Enchanter normally.

 

But Alexius has access to a guy who learned Blood Magic from Dumat himself.

Also, infinite amounts of (red) lyrium.

 

If I were writing it, I'd have all of the mages being made docile with a very low level "Indoctrination" like effect which will corrupt them all into the slave soldiers we see at Haven in a month or two.

[Willowhugger]

Rather, Gaider emphasized that there was no single 'best' in magic in Thedas because different societies had different practicies, focuses, and such. Arguing about who was more 'advanced' was missing that there wasn't a single direction to be advanced in.

 

That's true.

While I love Solas' reveal, I'm kind of disappointed his backstory isnt true.

 

The idea that you can self-teach yourself to Archmastery is something which appeals to me.

 

You may not be as graceful a boxer, but you can still punch like Foreman.