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[Dean_the_Young]

And they haven't bothered to do this research during those thousands of years because...?

And I'm not saying that Templars are invincible, I'm sure with a few captured templars those 30 research assistants could come up with some kind of countermeasure. I just question the intelligence of trading an ally immune to your enemy's most devastating ability for a numerically smaller ally with the same weakness you have. Why did Fiona think that this was an upgrade from a strategic point of view. I'm not seeing anyway to spin it. If they ran away immediatly it would make some sense, but there is no way to make capturing Redcliffe Castle logical from the rebel mage perspective.

 

Magic.

 

Or rather, the magic of going by reputation rather than tactics or strategy. Alexius name-drops some big things (Tevinter- powerful. Magister-powerful. Support-powerful.), and Fiona does not/will not/can not/does not even know (how) to compare those claims against what actually is or would affect her situation on the ground.

[Dean_the_Young]

I admit, I think it would make more sense if Fiona was being subtly influenced by Blood Magic.

 

 

Because you'd like her to have a better excuse than just being inept?

 

 

 

It wouldn't work on a Grand Enchanter normally.

 

 

Sure it would. Blood magic is no less effective on mages than anyone else.

 

But Alexius has access to a guy who learned Blood Magic from Dumat himself.

Also, infinite amounts of (red) lyrium.

 

 

Alexius has neither of these available to him, nor does Fiona have any reason to think he does.

 

If I were writing it, I'd have all of the mages being made docile with a very low level "Indoctrination" like effect which will corrupt them all into the slave soldiers we see at Haven in a month or two.

 

Indoctrination doesn't exist in the DA universe. The closest so far is the consumption of red lyrium.

 

The magi, if you recruit the Templars, appear to have been ritually brainwashed into Venatori. Or so suggests a codex in the hissing wastes.

[Willowhugger]

 

Sure it would. Blood magic is no less effective on mages than anyone else.

 

Mage Hawke can resist it just fine.

 

As for making Fiona seem less stupid, I was actually preferring it on the grounds it makes Alexius and Corypheus seem more cunning. They've got plans within plans which amount to more than just walking in and talking over.

 

Which they do.

 

I think Fiona was quite stupid either way.

But I think I'm entitled to also think she should be a little smarter, even if smart people make bad decisions all the time.

Especially when desperate.

 

Better your enemy be smarter than win because you're a moron.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mage Hawke can resist it just fine.

 

Mage Hawke is Hawke. Even non-mage Hawke can resist it enough to call for help.

 

As for making Fiona seem less stupid, I was actually preferring it on the grounds it makes Alexius and Corypheus seem more cunning. They've got plans within plans which amount to more than just walking in and talking over.

 

 

Neither of their plans vis-a-vis the mages are particularly cunning. Making Fiona stupider via blood magic doesn't elevate them any higher- it would just rob us (the players) of having any charater interaction of note with her that could thereafter be excused by 'blood magic.'

 

There's a reason why indoctrination and mind control tropes destroy the characterization of whoever they are applied to. Everything can thereafter be dismised as 'it's not them, it's the mind control,' whether it was or not.

 

 

I think Fiona was quite stupid either way.

But I think I'm entitled to also think she should be a little smarter, even if smart people make bad decisions all the time.

Especially when desperate.

 

 

 

Better your enemy be smarter than win because you're a moron.

 

 

 

Fiona's short-sighted revolutionary incompetence was apparent well before DAI. Justifying poor decisions on the basis of even worse circumstances that she didn't arrange favorably ahead of time is in-character for her.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Magic.

Or rather, the magic of going by reputation rather than tactics or strategy. Alexius name-drops some big things (Tevinter- powerful. Magister-powerful. Support-powerful.), and Fiona does not/will not/can not/does not even know (how) to compare those claims against what actually is or would affect her situation on the ground.

Yeah, that seems like the most likely explanation, in which case I am sticking with Fiona is a bad leader and/or a moron. Although I guess that was kind of apparent when she went along with taking over Redcliffe and didn't even make an attempt to withdraw from the alliance or renegotiste it when the terms were changed from her understanding of it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Yeah, that seems like the most likely explanation, in which case I am sticking with Fiona is a bad leader and/or a moron. Although I guess that was kind of apparent when she went along with taking over Redcliffe and didn't even make an attempt to withdraw from the alliance or renegotiste it when the terms were changed from her understanding of it.

 

It was apparent when she fought the Rebellion without a game plan, alliances, prepared terrain, or contingencies, despite years or even decades to prepare. It may have also been not-so-subtly hinted at when she was left behind for the negotiations at the Conclave.

 

Fiona's Grand Rebellion was pretty much the three stage get-rich plan.

 

Step One: **** the Divine!

Stage Two: ???

Stage Three: Profit! (And Freedom)

 

She basically tried and helped push everyone towards voting for the Rebellion just to wing it. Win or lose, she was a bad leader and a moron.

[Lulupab]

*Citation needed.
 

*Citation needed that
 

This one actually does occur... and they were wrong.

The term for people who fall for verifable misinformation and manipulation is 'gullible.'

 

The portal that we close right before entering Redcliff (right outside the gate) distorts time and shows a glimpse of battle between mages and Templars. I reloaded a few times to see exactly what's happening. Maybe the guards are aiding too as the glimpse doesn't show everything, only a single scene, but mages are defending Redcliff in any case.

 

Also there are two random people of Redcliff talking, one says they shouldn't have thrown out the Arl but the other says the Magister helped us, not the Arl.

 

Also we don't know why Teagan doesn't provide extra help or ask for help from Denerim. Maybe Alexius had something to do with it, perhaps time magic or blood magic? We don't know the why but we do know that they don't help the mages, other than providing the shelter. Alexius plan was brilliant, there is no denying this. He knew exactly when and where he should be to get what he wants, and with the Elder one aiding him he manipulated everyone and since he was several leagues above the people of Redcliff, I wound't call them 'gullible', they didn't have this flaw, Alexius was simply far more prepared and smarter than them.

 

The point is everyone believed Templars are marching to Redcliff . The initial attack, raiding of shipments en route to Redcliff by Templars, mage refugees coming with news of Templar army on march (Venatori spies) and no aid or word from Denerim made people really believe. I mean if we were in Redcliff without knowing what's really going on I'm sure 99% of players would believe a Templar attack is imminent. There is nothing indicating otherwise.

[Lulupab]

It was apparent when she fought the Rebellion without a game plan, alliances, prepared terrain, or contingencies, despite years or even decades to prepare. It may have also been not-so-subtly hinted at when she was left behind for the negotiations at the Conclave.

 

Fiona's Grand Rebellion was pretty much the three stage get-rich plan.

 

Step One: **** the Divine!

Stage Two: ???

Stage Three: Profit! (And Freedom)

 

She basically tried and helped push everyone towards voting for the Rebellion just to wing it. Win or lose, she was a bad leader and a moron.

 

You didn't mention the previous steps, her goals were very similar to the epilogue where Vivienne becomes the Divine. More freedom inside the circles without scrutiny from anyone, Seekers and Templars included.

 

When she merely offered the idea, the biggest fail in history of Thedas which is the seekers, disbanded the college of Enchanters, aka the only mage authority figures in South Thedas. With what Lambert did, Mages expected a hundred years of extra mistrust and cracking down, she couldn't simply have that. I'd like to see your opinion on what's the best reaction when your only chance for peaceful reforms is disbanded and mages whom you are supposed to lead are suffering. She didn't ask 15 circles to rebel, they did it on their own because they agreed with her.

[Colonelkillabee]

After the third time of voting no, and when the templars finally said **** it, lets kill them, you mean. Before then, barely anyone wanted to have anything to do with her ****.

[Lulupab]

After the third time of voting no, and when the templars finally said **** it, lets kill them, you mean. Before then, barely anyone wanted to have anything to do anything with her ****.

 

I don't have anything to discuss with someone who thinks previous circles actually worked. The circle itself is not a bad idea, it works but with Seekers and Templars in power... not so much, not at all actually. All endings acknowledge this fact, mages are granted better living in all of the endings. Vivienne makes them glorified watch dogs only there in case of a disaster. Cassandra remakes them from very core and watches them with a lot of care. The Seekers and Templars are very much in same level of blame if not more for what happened.

 

Also this is relevant, Ferelden didn't help the mages. For whatever reason, we don't know. Probably Alexius's doing, but the fact remains that they didn't help.

 

[Br3admax]

Ah, this thread again. Looks like Dean has things handled anyway. 

[Willowhugger]

I like to think, though, Fiona realizing the Inquisition has NO IDEA WHAT SHE'S TALKING ABOUT re: the Templars attacking is the first moment she realizes things are completely ****ed.

 

It's impressively funny if Vivienne and Cassandra are there plus Solas.

Fiona seeing an Apostate, Seeker, and her Loyalist opposite number working together should have started the wheels in motion then and there.

Even not, she should have been asking some serious questions.

Instead, she didn't.

[Master Warder Z_]

Fiona merely revealed herself to be another fool mage.

An idiot who sacrifices others for personal gain.

Oh wait we already knew that from Asunder.

[Lulupab]

Fiona merely revealed herself to be another fool mage.

An idiot who sacrifices others for personal gain.

Oh wait we already knew that from Asunder.

How is this relevant actually? Everyone in Redcliff thinks Templar invasion is imminent. She was not any more "fool" than others.

 

Also Fiona could have gone anywhere and do anything she wanted, instead she went back to circle to help her fellow mages. If by "personal" you mean she sometiems put the lives of mage before others, that might be true to some extent, but its a good trait of a good leader. You think Gaspard is a good leader for this very reason because he thinks Orlais > All. Doesn't matter how many die at Ferelden as long as Orlais his her riches.

[Br3admax]

You do realise that "everyone in Redcliffe" is the people who stayed behind to be ruled by Tevinter, yes? Most of the other towns people left when a magister rolled through and the mages tried to sell them into slavery indentured servitude.  

[Lulupab]

You do realise that "everyone in Redcliffe" is the people who stayed behind to be ruled by Tevinter, yes? Most of the other towns people left when a magister rolled through and the mages tried to sell them into slavery indentured servitude.  

 

Citation needed.

 

There is a random conversation in the town where someone says they feel sorry for the Arl, the other says it was the Magister who protected us, not the Arl. Otherwise there is no indication of people leaving, other than the reason which is the chaos in Hinterlands. The nobles probably left long ago for example.

[Br3admax]

Citation needed.

 

There is a random conversation in the town where someone says they feel sorry for the Arl, the other says it was the Magister who protected us, not the Arl. Otherwise there is no indication of people leaving, other than the reason which is the chaos in Hinterlands. The nobles probably left long ago for example.

Connor and a few mages in the tavern. 

[myahele]

Simple answer:Blood Magic +Fear Demon We've seen how a magister could easily sway Clarel when she was having doubt's. Now imagine that ability with a magister that can travel through time.

[Br3admax]

Except Fiona doesn't know but any of those things, especially not time travel. 

[Aimi]

Connor and a few mages in the tavern.

Hanley, who stands next to the griffon statue, also expresses similar sentiments.

[Mr.House]

How is this relevant actually? Everyone in Redcliff thinks Templar invasion is imminent. She was not any more "fool" than others.

 

Also Fiona could have gone anywhere and do anything she wanted, instead she went back to circle to help her fellow mages. If by "personal" you mean she sometiems put the lives of mage before others, that might be true to some extent, but its a good trait of a good leader. You think Gaspard is a good leader for this very reason because he thinks Orlais > All. Doesn't matter how many die at Ferelden as long as Orlais his her riches.

Had Teagan stayed there it would not have happen, and if it DID happen and Teagan was struck in that battle Alistair and ANora would have every right to march their army on the templars. Face it, as long as the mages stayed in redcliffe with Teagan they where always gonig to be safe as no one would dare do a full attack on the village.

 

There's a clear reason why Alistair gave the mages Redcliffe.

 

1:Teagens presence it self will make people not want to do a full scale attack

2: Redcliffe castle has withstood many attacks and while there is a secret way in, there is no proof the templars know about that

 

She squandered that because she was scared and typical to Fiona that we saw in Asunder and The Calling, she made idiotic mistakes that caused everyone.

[myahele]

She's a grand enchanter, she should've known about blood magic and how to protecting her mind from being subtly controlled. Especially since she's dealing with people that are know blood magic users.

Never read the book, but didn't she use blood magic?

[Mr.House]

She's a grand enchanter, she should've known about blood magic and how to protecting her mind from being subtly controlled. Especially since she's dealing with people that are know blood magic users.

Never read the book, but didn't she use blood magic?

This is the same woman who rolled up the welcoming carpets for a shady Tevinter Magister....