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[Master Warder Z_]

Much as I loathe to admit it the Templar Order lacked the strength to combat Redcliffe once the Lord Seeker recalled the majority to the capital.

Their was no imminent danger which is plainly stated repeatedly.

[Colonelkillabee]

I don't have anything to discuss with someone who thinks previous circles actually worked. The circle itself is not a bad idea, it works but with Seekers and Templars in power... not so much, not at all actually. All endings acknowledge this fact, mages are granted better living in all of the endings. Vivienne makes them glorified watch dogs only there in case of a disaster. Cassandra remakes them from very core and watches them with a lot of care. The Seekers and Templars are very much in same level of blame if not more for what happened.

 

Also this is relevant, Ferelden didn't help the mages. For whatever reason, we don't know. Probably Alexius's doing, but the fact remains that they didn't help.

 

 

I like how you didn't deny what I said, lol. Also, I never said anything about the Circles working... they do work... poorly. I'm not on the side of the templars. But I'm not blind enough to think that the mages had no choice. And your quote says nothing that Fiona wasn't already saying before. Didnt confirm anything.

 

As if my opinion on the circles somehow changes factual history, lol.

[Lulupab]

Had Teagan stayed there it would not have happen, and if it DID happen and Teagan was struck in that battle Alistair and ANora would have every right to march their army on the templars. Face it, as long as the mages stayed in redcliffe with Teagan they where always gonig to be safe as no one would dare do a full attack on the village.

 

There's a clear reason why Alistair gave the mages Redcliffe.

 

1:Teagens presence it self will make people not want to do a full scale attack

2: Redcliffe castle has withstood many attacks and while there is a secret way in, there is no proof the templars know about that

 

She squandered that because she was scared and typical to Fiona that we saw in Asunder and The Calling, she made idiotic mistakes that caused everyone.

 

Its made clear no other help was offered. The threat was very real (I know Alexius faked it but it was very real to people at Redcliff). We can argue that Alexius had a hand in somehow not letting anyone being able to help Redcliff. Given what he did with time magic at redcliff its quite possible. 

 

Its very comvinient that Ferelden forces arrive only when Alexius loses his amulet and can no longer distort time. Time traveling can be quite confusing, but when Alexius lost that amulet in the future and the herald and Dorian arrived from the future WITH the amulet then whatever Alexius did to prevent anyone from being able to help Redcliff was disrupted.

[Lulupab]

Connor and a few mages in the tavern. 

 

According to what people say at the tavern the majority of people who left, did so because of war and chaos in Hinterlands. Before Alexius came there was rumors of Tempalr assualt already, so there was plenty of reason to leave way before Alexius arrived. Perhaps some left because of Alexius but its probbaly the  minority of people who left.

[herkles]

Its made clear no other help was offered. The threat was very real (I know Alexius faked it but it was very real to people at Redcliff). We can argue that Alexius had a hand in somehow not letting anyone being able to help Redcliff. Given what he did with time magic at redcliff its quite possible. 

 

Its very comvinient that Ferelden forces arrive only when Alexius loses his amulet and can no longer distort time. Time traveling can be quite confusing, but when Alexius lost that amulet in the future and the herald and Dorian arrived from the future WITH the amulet then whatever Alexius did to prevent anyone from being able to help Redcliff was disrupted.

I thought that once Teagan came, he gathered his men and raced to the capital, alerted Alistair and/or Anora. They then did a forced march directly to Redcliff.

[Master Warder Z_]

I thought that once Teagan came, he gathered his men and raced to the capital, alerted Alistair and/or Anora. They then did a forced march directly to Redcliff.

And then evicted Fiona.

[Catche Jagger]

Look, Fiona made a bad call. That's all there is to it. Most characters in the game have also made bad calls (like the Templars who stayed with the Order despite something obviously being wrong). One failure does not define a character as an inept failure. However, completely absolving Fiona of any fault is also the wrong way of looking it. She did make a mistake, and we should acknowledge that, but not let it shape our entire point of view.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Look, Fiona made a bad call. That's all there is to it. Most characters in the game have also made bad calls (like the Templars who stayed with the Order despite something obviously being wrong). One failure does not define a character as an inept failure. However, completely absolving Fiona of any fault is also the wrong way of looking it. She did make a mistake, and we should acknowledge that, but not let it shape our entire point of view.

She made a stupid mistake and then refuses to accept it was a mistake. And then she makes the Redcliffe mistake and refuses to accept it was a mistake even after being Landoed.

[herkles]

Look, Fiona made a bad call. That's all there is to it. Most characters in the game have also made bad calls (like the Templars who stayed with the Order despite something obviously being wrong). One failure does not define a character as an inept failure. However, completely absolving Fiona of any fault is also the wrong way of looking it. She did make a mistake, and we should acknowledge that, but not let it shape our entire point of view.

It would help if we at least had the chance to judge her at skyhold.

[Br3admax]

According to what people say at the tavern the majority of people who left, did so because of war and chaos in Hinterlands. Before Alexius came there was rumors of Tempalr assualt already, so there was plenty of reason to leave way before Alexius arrived. Perhaps some left because of Alexius but its probbaly the  minority of people who left.

Not true in the slightest. And considering I just talked to them, going to call this out as complete bs. 

[Aimi]

Its made clear no other help was offered. The threat was very real (I know Alexius faked it but it was very real to people at Redcliff). We can argue that Alexius had a hand in somehow not letting anyone being able to help Redcliff. Given what he did with time magic at redcliff its quite possible. 
 
Its very comvinient that Ferelden forces arrive only when Alexius loses his amulet and can no longer distort time. Time traveling can be quite confusing, but when Alexius lost that amulet in the future and the herald and Dorian arrived from the future WITH the amulet then whatever Alexius did to prevent anyone from being able to help Redcliff was disrupted.

No, the only person who "makes it clear" that Ferelden wasn't stepping up was Fiona, somebody who has a history of making bad decisions and then attempting to retroactively justify those decisions by any means necessary. She claims that the Fereldan monarch and Arl Teagan weren't helping out; the monarch says the opposite. There are mages in Redcliffe who also say that she made the wrong decision. The preponderance of evidence is not on her side.

I don't know if we can or should explain the events at Redcliffe purely through time distortion because it would seem to afford Alexius decidedly more power to shape the narrative than we actually see. If the Inquisitor elects to go to Therinfal instead of continuing the meeting with Alexius, for example, Alexius does not distort time to reverse that decision, even though he is actively trying to get the Inquisitor to go to Redcliffe for the trap. Alexius also does not distort time to prevent Fereldan forces from reestablishing control over Redcliffe in that eventuality; instead, he apparently dies or disappears, while the Venatori shift their base of operations to the west under Calpernia and Teagan regains control. It's also not clear how he would be manipulating time to keep Fereldan forces out and not, say, Dorian, or Leliana's agents.

Of course, we know the non-story reason for the Fereldan arrival so shortly after the confrontation at Redcliffe: to make it easier to wrap up the mage plotline with a bow, to give everybody a reason to move on to the next thing, and to throw Origins fans a bone by having their Landsmeet decision show up in more than just the operations.

What most interests me about "In Hushed Whispers" is what, exactly, Alexius changed with the use of the amulet. If all he did was suck the Inquisitor and Dorian forward into an alternate timeline, then presumably Leliana and her agents and Felix and the other two companions would've been right there still. The only other person available to Alexius would've been Fiona. It's hard, if not impossible, to imagine him successfully winning not only that fight, but also the subsequent fight against whoever showed up at the gates of Redcliffe demanding answers. So why did that result in a dystopian Elder-One-Wins future with the companions imprisoned and Alexius still working for Corypheus? (And why didn't Corypheus resort to his "use the Breach" or "use the Eluvian" strategies to enter the Fade after the Anchor was swept off the face of Thedas? He used them very quickly once he discovered that the Anchor was no longer available for his use in "In Your Heart Shall Burn".)

[Br3admax]

(And why didn't Corypheus resort to his "use the Breach" or "use the Eluvian" strategies to enter the Fade after the Anchor was swept off the face of Thedas? He used them very quickly once he discovered that the Anchor was no longer available for his use in "In Your Heart Shall Burn".)

I believe he did use, the Breach. "More powerful than the Maker." or something stupid like that. If you mean while the Inquisitor was still in Haven, probably because he still hoped to get it back. 

[Barquiel]

The elderly mage in the tavern (the one who doesn't like Tevinter) tells you that the magister's arrival was a stroke of luck because the mages were bracing for the templars to attack at that moment, and he gave them the edge they desperately needed. So no, the Arl and his forces weren't helping out...or at least not enough.

[Br3admax]

The elderly mage in the tavern (the one who doesn't like Tevinter) tells you that the magister's arrival was a stroke of luck because the mages were bracing for the templars to attack at that moment, and he gave them the edge they desperately needed. So no, the Arl and his forces weren't helping out...or at least not enough.

There was no Templar attack. so this logic really falls through. The Templars never attacked Redcliffe, that's just the justification Fiona and her inner circle gae to justify their actions. 

[Catche Jagger]

She made a stupid mistake and then refuses to accept it was a mistake. And then she makes the Redcliffe mistake and refuses to accept it was a mistake even after being Landoed.

We should remember that those decisions were made under duress. Yes, she could have made a better decision, but those decisions were made at times during which it was difficult to determine what was right.

However I do agree that she should acknowledge her failure. Perhaps her main flaw is stubbornness, as opposed to ineptitude as many here contend.

I agree @herkles that we should have been able to hold her accountable, whether we were right to do so or not.

[Barquiel]

There was no Templar attack. so this logic really falls through. The Templars never attacked Redcliffe, that's just the justification Fiona and her inner circle gae to justify their actions.

[Lulupab]

There was no Templar attack. so this logic really falls through. The Templars never attacked Redcliffe, that's just the justification Fiona and her inner circle gae to justify their actions.

What is this? Are you even trying? There was no actual Templar army marching on Redcliff but the Templars did attack.

1. A group of templars attacked Redcliff, the mages helped defend the city. People died and got wounded, mages and people of Redcliff alike
2. Shipments en route to Redcliff are getting raided by Templars
3. Mage refugees come with news of massing templar army ready to march on Redcliff, and the group that attacked was part of a vast army. (The regugee mages are Venatori spies)
4. After the explosion at the conclave the mages have lost all of their small alliances because people blame them for what happened at the conclave

Even if in reality there was no templar army ready to invade Alexius made it quite real for the mages and people of Redcliff. Literally every single person in Redcliff believes Templars will attack, a 2nd time. Redcliff guards are getting ready to defend, you can see them everywhere.

[Aimi]

We should remember that those decisions were made under duress. Yes, she could have made a better decision, but those decisions were made at times during which it was difficult to determine what was right.

However I do agree that she should acknowledge her failure. Perhaps her main flaw is stubbornness, as opposed to ineptitude as many here contend.

I agree @herkles that we should have been able to hold her accountable, whether we were right to do so or not.

I agree that it is difficult to make major decisions under severe stress. Problem is, that's kind of what good leadership is all about, and that's why it is so rare. These examples are precisely why people like Dean and Br3admax and so on say that she is a bad leader. This isn't born of a "mage independence is stupid" or "mages suck" viewpoint, at least not in my case. Whatever you think about mages and their political situation, Fiona failed her followers.

Stubbornness also isn't what got her into the entire mage-templar war mess: it was the ineptitude of failing to think her actions through to any of their probable conclusions. After she managed the conclave vote for independence...what next? She had no plan. Even after Redcliffe, she still didn't have a plan. I have a hard time understanding how she could be described as anything but inept.

Even if in reality there was no templar army ready to invade Alexius made it quite real for the mages and people of Redcliff. Literally every single person in Redcliff believes Templars will attack, a 2nd time.

Everyone except, y'know, Connor and Hanley. And except for all of the people who don't actually express a specific opinion on whether the templars will attack, which is a lot.

If Fiona mistook the random assortment of rogue templars that harassed the Crossroads and Redcliffe from their base northwest of Lake Luthias for an actual templar army, then that makes her, again, a poor leader who made a bad decision. I know that gameplay and story are segregated, but other people would quickly point out that if the Inquisitor shattered those templars' forces so easily, they should not have posed a serious threat to Redcliffe with or without Alexius.

[Colonelkillabee]

Look, Fiona made a bad call. That's all there is to it. Most characters in the game have also made bad calls (like the Templars who stayed with the Order despite something obviously being wrong). One failure does not define a character as an inept failure. However, completely absolving Fiona of any fault is also the wrong way of looking it. She did make a mistake, and we should acknowledge that, but not let it shape our entire point of view.

One failure? No. But Fiona had three failures prior to Redcliffe, and that's just in relation to mages and not even about the grey warden stuff.

 

What failures?

 

Push 1

 

Push 2- Which actually never got to be made, then-

 

Push 3

 

For separating the circle after what happened in Kirkwall. As if the Templars or anyone would be okay with that after some dumb ass mage just bombed their chantry. Yes they'll be fine with not keeping an eye on us after that. Seems legit.

[Br3admax]

*snip*

Those are the renegades in the Hinterlands, which also includes mages. You do realise this, yes?

[Barquiel]

I agree that it is difficult to make major decisions under severe stress. Problem is, that's kind of what good leadership is all about, and that's why it is so rare. These examples are precisely why people like Dean and Br3admax and so on say that she is a bad leader. This isn't born of a "mage independence is stupid" or "mages suck" viewpoint, at least not in my case. Whatever you think about mages and their political situation, Fiona failed her followers.

Stubbornness also isn't what got her into the entire mage-templar war mess: it was the ineptitude of failing to think her actions through to any of their probable conclusions. After she managed the conclave vote for independence...what next? She had no plan. Even after Redcliffe, she still didn't have a plan. I have a hard time understanding how she could be described as anything but inept.

Then what exactly would you want her to do? The templars imposed more and more restrictions after Kirkwall and we have a Lord Seeker who has no interest in any kind of compromise (according to Cole, he also planned to overthrow the divine). I think she would have been a worse leader if she had done nothing.

And who says she didn't have a plan? Yes, the situation grew desperate for the mages after the conclave...but I'd imagine many powerful mages were killed there, something no one could have foreseen.

[Barquiel]

Those are the renegades in the Hinterlands, which also includes mages. You do realise this, yes?

Right, because when she says "cursed templars" she actually means attacks by mage renegades. That makes sense...

[Br3admax]

Right, because when she says "cursed templars" she actually means attacks by mage renegades. That makes sense...

Because we totally don't see mages doing the exact same thing, stealing homes, and lighting people on fire. You have excellent reasoning. It's also not like we didn't know that literally all the Templars were recalled and most followed. Excellent reasoning, indeed. 

[myahele]

I think we should also keep in mind the greater fear demon feeding and potentially exacerbating many people's fears and not just those in redcliff or adamant.

Excluding that demon's role, the fact of the matter is that Ferelden offered them safety. As refugees they were complicit in throwing out the lord of Radcliffe and allied themselves with a foreign power/enemy.

[Dean_the_Young]

You didn't mention the previous steps, her goals were very similar to the epilogue where Vivienne becomes the Divine. More freedom inside the circles without scrutiny from anyone, Seekers and Templars included.

 

 

A goal is not a 'previous step.' A goal is what is achieved (or aimed to be achieved) after previous steps occur.

 

 

 

When she merely offered the idea, the biggest fail in history of Thedas which is the seekers, disbanded the college of Enchanters, aka the only mage authority figures in South Thedas. With what Lambert did, Mages expected a hundred years of extra mistrust and cracking down, she couldn't simply have that. I'd like to see your opinion on what's the best reaction when your only chance for peaceful reforms is disbanded and mages whom you are supposed to lead are suffering. She didn't ask 15 circles to rebel, they did it on their own because they agreed with her.

 

 

I've put my ideas out a number of times before- both for if their goals were aligned with mine, and in pursuit of their own stated goals.

 

If Fiona's goal was mage independence, she should have been working behind the scenes to promote favorable public opinion of mages, secure allies, prepare defensible terrain, or exploit political divisions to secure independence as a fait accompli.

 

If freedom but exile out of Thedas was her goal, she should have prepared an underground railroad and smugglers to move the mages to whatever area it was (even if it was to flee to the unmapped west). Safe houses, support networks, a spy network, and the various forms of the mage underground/mage collective could have set up both isolated communities to hide within, and means to cover up and correct wild apostates.

 

If she was just going to sell everyone to Tevinter, she could have just gotten everyone to a specified shore and told everyone that the nice men would take them someplace safe, rather than launch a coup of a Ferelden arling and hope to get smuggled halfway across Ferelden.