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[Willowhugger]

And that's really the bottom line, isn't it? Mage fans may not think that the mages owed loyalty due to how they were treated, but well tough ******. I'm no mage and I'm not going to be very accepting of treason regardless of the reason, especially when it could've indeed been avoided. **** that, **** them.

That's the thing.

Mages have no reason to be loyal to their jailers.

 

Being a slave for the Chantry is good for the Chantry but, honestly, as a Mage I have no obligation to them.

"FREEEEDDDDDDOMMMMMM!"

[Willowhugger]

Lambert being killed is why the Rebellion lasted as long as it did. What Vivienne should have done is kill Fiona...

 

Then Corypheus would have corrupted the Lord Seeker and had BOTH Templars and Mages.

 

Ironically, the war worked out for the best.
 

[Lulupab]

Its funny how corrupt Lambert was and its even more funny how a unique little spirit of Compassion killed him. In either case, the Seekers have been like this for almost a thousand years and they dragged the templars down with them. Lambert should have given mages more rights inside circles when Fiona asked for it, it would have ended the hostilities between mages and Templar and would stop the rebellion without bloodshed. Divine Justinia was the best thing happened to Thedas in a long time and Lambert was the worst.

 

I knew in my heart that no ending would make the condition of mages worse, and there is no single ending supporting the old Templar order. They are remade from the core if you make Cass the Divine.

[Willowhugger]

Its funny how corrupt Lambert was and its even more funny how a unique little spirit of Compassion killed him. In either case, the Seekers have been like this for almost a thousand years and they dragged the templars down with them. Lambert should have given mages more rights inside circles when Fiona asked for it, it would have ended the hostilities between mages and Templar and would stop the rebellion without bloodshed. Divine Justinia was the best thing happened to Thedas in a long time and Lambert was the worst.

 

I knew in my heart that no ending would make the condition of mages worse, and there is no single ending supporting the old Templar order. They are remade from the core if you make Cass the Divine.

 

To be fair, Fiona would have agitated for complete independence no matter what.

However, if Lambert hadn't been the guy in charge, most mages probably wouldn't have pushed it.

 

And Fiona's political power would have been nill.

 

Hell, if the Templars had banned Tranquility as a punishment (which was never supposed to be used that way anyway), it's likely no one would have cared.

[Dean_the_Young]

Okay, this is ridiculous since the Mages kind of won the war.

 

It's a miserable UNNECESSARY war but the Templars were at the negotiating table.

 

Which is all they needed in the first place.

 

That's a bit of selective memory- especially considering that the mages were also back at the negotiating table.

 

If the mages negotiated themselves back into the Circles, then the Templar strategic goals of overturning the mage rebellion would be accomplished. The mage strategic goal of independence and a refusal to accept the influence of the Chantry would be reversed, no matter what concessions came along with it, because it ultimately still would have been the Chantry authority granting it and the Templar power enforcing it.

 

 

If Fiona were to settle for negotiations and compromises after a war decimated the mage ranks and left them trapped against a wall, then all she would have achieved would be clawing her way back to the Chantry-sanctioned reform process she usurped in Asunder for the independence in the first place.

[Dean_the_Young]

That's the thing.

Mages have no reason to be loyal to their jailers.

 

Being a slave for the Chantry is good for the Chantry but, honestly, as a Mage I have no obligation to them.

"FREEEEDDDDDDOMMMMMM!"

 

1) You aren't a mage.

 

2) Mages aren't slaves.

 

3) Even if mages are entitled to their own views and perspectives, they are not entitled to their own facts.

 

4) Self-awareness and honesty would be good for the Chantry, but even mages have no obligation to having them.

[Willowhugger]

That's a bit of selective memory- especially considering that the mages were also back at the negotiating table.

 

If the mages negotiated themselves back into the Circles, then the Templar strategic goals of overturning the mage rebellion would be accomplished. The mage strategic goal of independence and a refusal to accept the influence of the Chantry would be reversed, no matter what concessions came along with it, because it ultimately still would have been the Chantry authority granting it and the Templar power enforcing it.

 

If Fiona were to settle for negotiations and compromises after a war decimated the mage ranks and left them trapped against a wall, then all she would have achieved would be clawing her way back to the Chantry-sanctioned reform process she usurped in Asunder for the independence in the first place.

 

Which is actually why the whole concept of "winning" and "losing" a war is kind of a child's view of them.

 

It's very likely the war would have ended with concessions on both sides.

 

If the mages got the College of Enchanters back and guarantees not to dissolve it again, that would probably settle most issues.

 

However, Fiona would HATE that because she wanted complete independence.

[Willowhugger]

1) You aren't a mage.

 

2) Mages aren't slaves.

 

3) Even if mages are entitled to their own views and perspectives, they are not entitled to their own facts.

 

4) Self-awareness and honesty would be good for the Chantry, but even mages have no obligation to having them.

 

1. Says who? Hufflepuff4Life.

 

2. Mages are people taken from their families and placed in an environment where they are kept in the service of the chantry for the rest of their lives.

 

3. They are entitled to them in so much as they are able to force them from others by force or negotiation. Which is the way all rights exist.

 

4. No, but if the mages have no stake in the Chantry they have no reason to serve it. Vivienne has considerable stake in the Chantry, which is why her ending shows her working to making that more distributed amongst mages.

 

She understands the carrot and the stick.

[Dean_the_Young]

Which is actually why the whole concept of "winning" and "losing" a war is kind of a child's view of them.

 

Not really.

 

 

It's very likely the war would have ended with concessions on both sides.

 

 

Or a possible massacre of the remaining mages of Redcliffe, which might (or might not) force changes to the Circle system after such an international incident, but to which calling it a 'compromise' would imply that the other party survived.

 

 

If the mages got the College of Enchanters back and guarantees not to dissolve it again, that would probably settle most issues.

 

 

It wouldn't, nor would a guarantee that could be simply reversed mean anything.
 

 

However, Fiona would HATE that because she wanted complete independence.

 

Fortunately (or unfortunately), she was left behind at Redcliffe while the adults went negotiating.

[Willowhugger]

 

Or a possible massacre of the remaining mages of Redcliffe, which might (or might not) force changes to the Circle system after such an international incident, but to which calling it a 'compromise' would imply that the other party survived.

 

Well, that's how the war DOES end, sadly.

 

Whichever side gets ignored by the Inquisitor completely annihilated because they become slaves of Not-Skeletor.

 

Just once, I'd like a war to end in a negotiated peace in a video game.

[Dean_the_Young]

1. Says who? Hufflepuff4Life.

 

Harry Potter ain't real either.

 

2. Mages are people taken from their families and placed in an environment where they are kept in the service of the chantry for the rest of their lives.

 

Doesn't make them slaves- particularly since they aren't forced to serve the Chantry.

 

 

 

3. They are entitled to them in so much as they are able to force them from others by force or negotiation. Which is the way all rights exist.

 

 

Objective reality and facts don't work by right of might.
 

 

4. No, but if the mages have no stake in the Chantry they have no reason to serve it. Vivienne has considerable stake in the Chantry, which is why her ending shows her working to making that more distributed amongst mages.

 

 

They can have reasons whether they have a stake in it or not, and they can have a stake in it whether they recognize it or not.

 

Not recognizing the stake they had in the Chantry, the ultimate arbitrator of moral authority in Southern Thedas and one which had a reformist-minded Divine who already favored reforms in their favor, was one of the leadership ineptitudes of Fiona.

[Zered]

TL;DR

 

You don't have to be a rocket scientist or an first enchanter to know that selling yourself into servitude to Tevinter is a bad idea. IMO Fiona led the mages straight into slavery a few moments after she pushed them into freedom. Epic leadership.

[Willowhugger]

 

Objective reality and facts don't work by right of might.

 

There's no such thing as objective rights.

 

As Death would say:

YES. AS PRACTICE. YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

"So we can believe the big ones?"

YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

"They're not the same at all!"

YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET—Death waved a hand. AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

"Yes, but people have got to believe that, or what's the point—"

MY POINT EXACTLY.”

[Lulupab]

The mages came much closer to their goal in the war, same can't be said about Templars. Mages are still mages but Templars fell a gigantic distance from respected protectors to mistrusted thugs who failed where it mattered most.

 

The game and its ending clearly implies the system of handling mages was wrong, and the Seeker and Templar order needed a lot of changes as well. 

[Gileadan]

The mages came much closer to their goal in the war, same can't be said about Templars. Mages are still mages but Templars fell a gigantic distance from respected protectors to mistrusted thugs who failed where it mattered most.

 

The game and its ending clearly implies the system of handling mages was wrong, and the Seeker and Templar order needed a lot of changes as well. 

Well, I allied with the templars, and I distinctly remember the words "golden age" from my ending. That would imply that it doesn't get much better than that, no?

[Lulupab]

Well, I allied with the templars, and I distinctly remember the words "golden age" from my ending. That would imply that it doesn't get much better than that, no?

 

I think you misunderstood. Even if you side with Templars there are still mages in Thedas.

 

No matter which ending you get Mages get better lives, either in the circles or out of it. And again no matter which ending you choose, either Templars are gone for good, made glorified watch dogs by Vivienne or remade from the core by Cassandra.

 

The Templars wanted to get the mages in the circles with harsher conditions, that cannot happen in this game. But mages get their goal, more or less in all of the endings. Ironically Vivienne does what Fiona wanted with her initial vote.

[Ieldra]

I wonder: has anyone suspected mind control as the reason behind Fiona's decision? I mean, the subtle kind that shades your perceptions just enough to make a really stupid decision that goes against everything you fought for in the first place?

 

Because Fiona's alliance with Tevinter makes no sense, at least not on the terms they were offering. Fighting for freedom but accepting servitude to another, I can't see a passionate freedom fighter like Fiona making such a decision.

 

As far as I'm concerned, she was mentally nudged into it by Alexius. She does mention she feels strange after all....

[DKJaigen]

I think you misunderstood. Even if you side with Templars there are still mages in Thedas.

 

No matter which ending you get Mages get better lives, either in the circles or out of it. And again no matter which ending you choose, either Templars are gone for good, made glorified watch dogs by Vivienne or remade from the core by Cassandra.

 

The Templars wanted to get the mages in the circles with harsher conditions, that cannot happen in this game. But mages get their goal, more or less in all of the endings. Ironically Vivienne does what Fiona wanted with her initial vote.

 

Yeah basically everybody in the game says the current system was just bogus. It didnt benefit the mages and (  some would like to forget it) didnt benefit the templars as well. How many red templars did we see? And the entire system folded like a house of cards when cory came calling. So yeah Fiona did the right thing with the rebellion. got herself into some problems with allying with tevinters but the templars knew they where allying themselves with the venatori. i say their problems where quite a bit greater.

[Willowhugger]

Not likely. Alexius is of the school of thought that "blood magic sucks" and as far as we know blood magic is the only known form of mind control (that isn't qaamek). That said it's not entirely impossible that he picked it up after joining the Venatori, but I doubt it. The Venatori don't resort to mind control until they are firmly under Calpernia's command.

 

And Alexius is The Flash/Emmet Brown/Dr. Who. So blood magic is... meh.

 

Alexius isn't really in his right mind during all of this, unless we assume the "Emmet Brown of Tevinter" normally makes telescopes from Tranquil skulls.

[Ryriena]

Yeah Fiona suddenly turning to slave labor teventier makes no sense in the grand schem of things. She was a slave and I doubt she would've done that to her people. She comes off as someone not fit to lead in the long run in this game I would've prefered if she had died in the conclave and some other mage faction became the leader like the head of the libertarian faction. Than the woman that was a slave as a child.

[Colonelkillabee]

That's the thing.

Mages have no reason to be loyal to their jailers.

 

Being a slave for the Chantry is good for the Chantry but, honestly, as a Mage I have no obligation to them.

"FREEEEDDDDDDOMMMMMM!"

The chantry is the only reason they know how to control their abilities, not be possessed, and not get killed by angry mobs that don't understand them.

 

Them not finding reasons to be loyal's really not my problem. As they said, Treason is treason.

[Dean_the_Young]

I wonder: has anyone suspected mind control as the reason behind Fiona's decision? I mean, the subtle kind that shades your perceptions just enough to make a really stupid decision that goes against everything you fought for in the first place?

 

Because Fiona's alliance with Tevinter makes no sense, at least not on the terms they were offering. Fighting for freedom but accepting servitude to another, I can't see a passionate freedom fighter like Fiona making such a decision.

 

As far as I'm concerned, she was mentally nudged into it by Alexius. She does mention she feels strange after all....

 

I've heard the theory raised. I've never seen any evidence for it, and even less argued support. At this point it is little more than fan-based special pleading for something to excuse Fiona from not living up to expectations as a noble revolutionary.

 

In Bioware games, mind-control has always been deliberatly blatant in many respects, from symptoms to companion alerts to point it out to post-brainwashing blatant exposition about it's existence. Bioware has never done brainwashing subtly, and there's nothing to suggest it mysteriously started in just one case of DAI despite numerous other blatant brainwashing tropes (Red Templars, the templar-route enslaved magister, the note of Venetori brainwashing the Circle mages).

 

No one, not even Fiona (who has the greatest interest in disavowing responsibility) brings up blood magic regarding Fiona's actions. On the other hand, there is an explicit plot device regarding the confusion of Fiona's appearance in Orlais, and that was the use of time magic. Which may be an awkward plot device/hand wave, but it is explicitly present, and presented as the basis for Alexius's timing and leverage over Fiona. Blood magic is never even insinuated by anyone in the cast, protagonist or antagonist alike.

[Ryriena]

I've heard the theory raised. I've never seen any evidence for it, and even less argued support. At this point it is little more than fan-based special pleading for something to excuse Fiona from not living up to expectations as a noble revolutionary.

In Bioware games, mind-control has always been deliberatly blatant in many respects, from symptoms to companion alerts to point it out to post-brainwashing blatant exposition about it's existence. Bioware has never done brainwashing subtly, and there's nothing to suggest it mysteriously started in just one case of DAI despite numerous other blatant brainwashing tropes (Red Templars, the templar-route enslaved magister, the note of Venetori brainwashing the Circle mages).

No one, not even Fiona (who has the greatest interest in disavowing responsibility) brings up blood magic regarding Fiona's actions. On the other hand, there is an explicit plot device regarding the confusion of Fiona's appearance in Orlais, and that was the use of time magic. Which may be an awkward plot device/hand wave, but it is explicitly present, and presented as the basis for Alexius's timing and leverage over Fiona. Blood magic is never even insinuated by anyone in the cast, protagonist or antagonist alike.

It still makes no sense this is, why I think they shouldn't have used time magic, as a reason to make the Mages look stupid. It's a hand wave for bad storytelling. They could've painted her as a better leader but nope they had to make the ex slave sell herself into servertuide, I mean really? They should have had Fiona die in the Conclave along with the new leader of the Templars. And have a new leader like say the head of the libertarian faction as the new leaders. It would make sense of them to blame the Templars for the blast since it did get rid of their real leader.

[NakedEmperor]

Ok, why didnt the mages just ditch the robes and the staffs and blend with the population?

Why wouldnt the chantry just excommunicate the templars when they broke off? It was done to the knights templars in RL.

The Chantry could threaten them with an exalted march and cut them off from their resources. Templars with no lyrium is an army of junkies without a fix.