114 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

The way I see it, all three are terrible people; Celene's utterly ruthless in her pursuit of court favor, Gaspard is shamelessly power-hungry, and Briala cares nothing for the collateral damage of her little crusade. I side with the Grand Duke because he at least admits it; Celene acts high and mighty while burning Halamshiral, and Briala thinks of herself as a savior of the oppressed while spurring on a war that does nothing but hurt innocents. Gaspard's no better, but he doesn't pretend to be anything else. I respect that.

As I see it, there are two major differences between Celene and Gaspard. Despite her questionable tactics, Celene is a better leader in terms of peace and progression. And she is using violence as a last resort to solve problems rather than the first.

Compare her to Gaspard. Gaspard's first appearance in the novel is him trying to anger Teagan to cause a war with Ferelden; he forces Celene to deal with the elven rebellion when she tried to settle things peacefully; he wanted to burn down an entire city in order to find Celene...even though it was obvious she was no longer there; he started a civil war (killing thousands of Orlesians) and put Orlais in more danger than ever in an effort to seize power for himself. And his "chevalier honor" apparently can always be warped enough to justify his actions. It is pretty impossible for me to think of Gaspard as anything other than a villain.

Maybe I would help him if he was some sort of military mastermind. But he has most chevaliers and still couldn't defeat Celene's forces in the civil war.

[LadyJaneGrey]

In the war table discussion before hand, none of them said "hey we should let Celene die" but both of them in their dialouge made it clear they respected the person they were talking about. Cullen in particular made it clear he thought Gapard was the rightful ruler and Celene just out played him in politicing.

 

True.  But since everyone BEFORE the mission said Corypheus' assassinating Celene is what started his big-bad plans it still feels jarring.  I don't think anyone's perspective is wrong - I just wish it had been more delicately handled.

[Arlee]

True.  But since everyone BEFORE the mission said Corypheus' assassinating Celene is what started his big-bad plans it still feels jarring.  I don't think anyone's perspective is wrong - I just wish it had been more delicately handled.

 

That is quite true. I interpreted it as, once we got to the palace and really understood the depth of the situation and how precarious everything was I realized right with Lileana that Cory's true aim was chaos and that could happen in a variety of ways. I think they could have made it clearer in the gathering clues section before the dance though so it wouldn't seem quite so jarring for most people.

[Bethgael]

The way I saw it, re: stability:

 

If you put Gaspard on the throne, the Orlesian army is his.

If you have Celene live, while leaving Gaspard alive and exiled, and without Briala (in the epilogue, she continues to support the Inquisition as a result), then the Orlesian troops are, for all intents and purposes, Cullen's.

 

Either way, you still get Orlais' forces. I'd just rather my General had control of them. I'm sure, if he'd taken five minutes to think about it, so would he.

(He's also not at all unhappy with the outcome if you decide to disagree with him).

[RoseLawliet]

I have a question for everyone making decisions based on the epilogue. We've already seen 3 times now that the epilogue slides get ignored by the writers for whatever reason. Does this come into consideration for you? I've only managed to finish the game once so far, and I got Celene clinging to the Inquisition... but perhaps in the next game it was yet another instance of her "playing the Game." Maybe Gaspard's sudden bout of pace-mindedness likewise gets overruled.

[Ashagar]

Its not a matter of being peace minded as its a matter that Tevintor is now a more important concern than dealing with Ferelden or Navarra or at least that's how I see his view. A Tevintor cult with the silent blessing of Tevintor's government if not open support just tried to wipe out Orlais leadership and frame him for it.

[JaxJyls]

because Cullen's a freaking moron

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

because Cullen's a freaking moron

No offence, but that is one of the most shallow comment I've seen today. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

Besides, how would it be treason anyway? Cullen is not and never was a soldier of Ferelden or anything like that. He owes them very little.

[Aimi]

Besides, how would it be treason anyway? Cullen is not and never was a soldier of Ferelden or anything like that. He owes them very little.

Well, to be fair, "treason" at this point in Fereldan jurisprudence is apparently a crime defined by the fiat of the Landsmeet or the monarch. He can be guilty of treason if they want him to be.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Well, to be fair, "treason" at this point in Fereldan jurisprudence is apparently a crime defined by the fiat of the Landsmeet or the monarch. He can be guilty of treason if they want him to be.

 

I suppose, but unless Leliana decides to ship them a transcript of their conversation in Halamshiral for some reason I don't see how they will ever know he supported Gaspard. He's kinda beyond the reach of any Ferelden noble anyhow, given that he commands an army bigger than any of their's unless the entirety of the country unites.

 

Albeit I suppose for pre-Warden Loghain types, being in the presence of any Orlesian without attempting to gut them might count as treason.

[Scerene]

Cullen says he thinks that he should be the leader because he is best suited to deal with current crisis, unlike Celene who is too busy throwing parties and playing games, which is true. Someone mentioned Briala stirring war and ignoring collateral damage.... ugh and how exactly would she go about making changes happen? by going from door to door handing out  pamphlets on elven equality ? Get real, the only way to make changes in thedas is through force, social climates in the respective societies are extremely stagnant, until they are forced not to be. There will always be collateral damage, and she puts herself in even more danger than anybody else, all things considered she is doing a pretty damn good job. I gleefully watched Celene die, and then made lil gassy Brialas' puppet.

[Flog the Undying]

Cullen says he thinks that he should be the leader because he is best suited to deal with current crisis, unlike Celene who is too busy throwing parties and playing games, which is true. Someone mentioned Briala stirring war and ignoring collateral damage.... ugh and how exactly would she go about making changes happen? by going from door to door handing out  pamphlets on elven equality ? Get real, the only way to make changes in thedas is through force, social climates in the respective societies are extremely stagnant, until they are forced not to be. There will always be collateral damage, and she puts herself in even more danger than anybody else, all things considered she is doing a pretty damn good job. I gleefully watched Celene die, and then made lil gassy Brialas' puppet.

 

Josephine's handling of war table missions shows that parties and games can be just as powerful as military finesse.

 

After all, one does not require said finesse when you can get others to show it for you. And Celene, if you side with her, proves just as effective as Gaspard.

[Aimi]

I suppose, but unless Leliana decides to ship them a transcript of their conversation in Halamshiral for some reason I don't see how they will ever know he supported Gaspard. He's kinda beyond the reach of any Ferelden noble anyhow, given that he commands an army bigger than any of their's unless the entirety of the country unites.
 
Albeit I suppose for pre-Warden Loghain types, being in the presence of any Orlesian without attempting to gut them might count as treason.

Well, yes. The OP's thread title was indeed quite silly for a variety of reasons.

The basic sentiment in that post - that Cullen's verbal support of Gaspard amounts to an endorsement of Orlesian offensive warfare against Ferelden - is, however, a legitimate observation. It does not make Cullen a "traitor" in a meaningful or actionable way, but it is a little bit bizarre for him. I get that there's supposed to be an even split, with each advisor supporting a different candidate for leadership, but that kind of left Cullen in a weird place. Gaspard's entire platform is "Celene beat me to the crown unfairly" and "I will restore Orlesian glory in foreign wars". The latter position would either cause extra fighting on top of the war with Corypheus (obviously a bad thing) or make it virtually impossible to cooperate with understandably-suspicious neighboring countries against Corypheus due to their fear of Gaspard and his plans (also obviously a bad thing).

Yet neither of these things happens, because Gaspard uncharacteristically agrees to a meaningful peace treaty with Ferelden brokered by Josephine's magic diplomacy. With that treaty, Gaspard can't win his laurels by reversing the verdict of the Battle of the Dane, erasing a huge reason for his supporters to back him in the first place. And in terms of gameplay, the negative consequences that Gaspard's reign was supposed to have...vanish.

Of course, the positive consequences of Gaspard's reign don't eventuate either. He isn't any better or worse for the Inquisition's war effort against Corypheus. But let that go.

[ewauksonian]

Well, yes. The OP's thread title was indeed quite silly for a variety of reasons.

The basic sentiment in that post - that Cullen's verbal support of Gaspard amounts to an endorsement of Orlesian offensive warfare against Ferelden - is, however, a legitimate observation. It does not make Cullen a "traitor" in a meaningful or actionable way, but it is a little bit bizarre for him. I get that there's supposed to be an even split, with each advisor supporting a different candidate for leadership, but that kind of left Cullen in a weird place. Gaspard's entire platform is "Celene beat me to the crown unfairly" and "I will restore Orlesian glory in foreign wars". The latter position would either cause extra fighting on top of the war with Corypheus (obviously a bad thing) or make it virtually impossible to cooperate with understandably-suspicious neighboring countries against Corypheus due to their fear of Gaspard and his plans (also obviously a bad thing).

Yet neither of these things happens, because Gaspard uncharacteristically agrees to a meaningful peace treaty with Ferelden brokered by Josephine's magic diplomacy. With that treaty, Gaspard can't win his laurels by reversing the verdict of the Battle of the Dane, erasing a huge reason for his supporters to back him in the first place. And in terms of gameplay, the negative consequences that Gaspard's reign was supposed to have...vanish.

Of course, the positive consequences of Gaspard's reign don't eventuate either. He isn't any better or worse for the Inquisition's war effort against Corypheus. But let that go.

There isn't necessarily any positives to whoever rules Orlais. The point was, Celene dies, no one replaces her immediately, and Chaos ensues. As for Gaspard's negative consequences, I think Gapsard is more clever and dastardly than we give credit to him. The treaty might, on the surface, seems to hamstring him, but with the "Venatori" cult, he has new reasons to fight another enemy. I doubt some of his supporters would look unkindly on him for choosing to fight Tevinter instead of Ferelden. Some might even prefer it. Besides, any ambitious military general can use any excuse for any incursion, treaty or no treaty.