25 réponses à ce sujet

[snfonseka]

As most of you aware the number of Old Gods and number of Elvern Gods (minus Dread Wolf and Mythal) are same and both of these groups are "locked away" in some place. Is it possible both Elves and Humans are refering to the same group of gods?

 

Since I am not a DA Lore expert (and usually don't read every codex entry), I like to know whether there is a connection between them in DA Lore. Thanks in advance for your anwsers.

[raging_monkey]

Well popular idea is that they have some connections but not likly but the theory exists

[Former_Fiend]

The idea that the old gods are the forgotten ones has been a popular theory for a while.

 

Inquisition offers some interesting bits of evidence for and against it, via Solas.

 

Spoiler

At one point, you can ask Solas if Corypheus' orb(actually Solas' orb) is what allows Corypheus to control an archdemon. Solas notes that it's possible, but such an ability would be a side affect, not an intended outcome of the orb's use; he explains that "nothing in any lore connects my people to the old god dragons that became archdemons." So, Fen'harel saying there's no connection between the old gods and the ancient elves would be evidence against.

 

Now, it's important to note a few things; firstly that Corypheus' dragon isn't actually an archdemon and the game offers no evidence that the orb is what allows him to control that dragon. Secondly, it is entirely possible that Solas was lying or being deliberately vague.

 

Now, the evidence for is less direct but no less strong; Solas appears to possess considerable knowledge about the blight. He's absolutely enraged with the Grey Warden's attempts at preempting it and suggests that killing off the archdemons wouldn't actually stop the blights, but make things worse. He appears very adamant in these beliefs; in dialogue he never offers evidence or a reason for his certainty beyond "for all we know, that could make things worse", and disapproves if the inquisitor argues in favor of the warden's intentions. Given Solas' true nature, he's in a position to know a thing or two about a thing or two.

 

Fen'Harel knowing that much about the nature of the blight would suggest a connection, though there are other possibilities.

[snfonseka]

Well popular idea is that they have some connections but not likly but the theory exists

 

So there is no connection (even a slight one) in Codex?

[LightningPoodle]

So there is no connection (even a slight one) in Codex?

 

The connection hasn't appeared at all within game. The connection has been spotted by a number of people who play the games and see a correlation. For all we know, our theory could be totally wrong.

 

It's a similar case with ASOIAF (Game of Thrones) with the R+L=J theory. Nothing has been stated in the books but there is a lot of evidence pointing to that being the truth. Again though, it could be completely wrong.

[arelenriel]

Actually there were not the same number of old gods and elven gods... but they may in fact be affiliated in some way.

 

Elves had 5 gods and 4 goddesses

 

El'gar' nan

Mythal

Fen' Harlen

Dirthamean

Falon'Din

Gil' Hainen

Andruil

Sylaise

June

 

There were seven Old Gods

 

Dumat (1st Blight)

Zazikel (2nd Blight)

Toth (3rd Blight)

Andoral (4th Blight)

Urthemiel (5th Blight)

Razikale

Lusikan

 

The main connection is that some people theorize that the Old Gods= The Forgotten One's who were essentially viewed as the evil deities that were both part of and outside the Elvhen pantheon but there is no codex that indicates if this is true or not- The Forgotten One's are exactly that -forgotten to the point where no one even remembers how many their were or what they were other than that they were locked away by Fen'Harel along with the other 8 Elvhen creators... and according to Solas none of them may actually be Gods at all just very powerful spirit possessed mages.

[Efvie]

And of course Solas could be lying about everything.

[Efvie]

Actually there were not the same number of old gods and elven gods... but they may in fact be affiliated in some way.

 

There are 9 elven gods, but only 7 of them are missing. We have information on Mythal and Fen’harel.

[LightningPoodle]

 

There are 9 elven gods, but only 7 of them are missing. We have information on Mythal and Fen’harel.

 

Dun Dun Dun. 

[Former_Fiend]

One could also argue that Fen'Harel doesn't really count as it's specifically pointed out that he wasn't really part of either clan of gods, but could walk among both of them.

 

Meanwhile, DAI does posit the existence of a heretofore unknown eighth old god(there was a thread about this a few days ago).

 

So with that, the numbers start evening out a bit more.

[Antergaton]

The idea that the old gods are the forgotten ones has been a popular theory for a while.

 

Inquisition offers some interesting bits of evidence for and against it, via Solas.

 

Spoiler

At one point, you can ask Solas if Corypheus' orb(actually Solas' orb) is what allows Corypheus to control an archdemon. Solas notes that it's possible, but such an ability would be a side affect, not an intended outcome of the orb's use; he explains that "nothing in any lore connects my people to the old god dragons that became archdemons." So, Fen'harel saying there's no connection between the old gods and the ancient elves would be evidence against.

 

Now, it's important to note a few things; firstly that Corypheus' dragon isn't actually an archdemon and the game offers no evidence that the orb is what allows him to control that dragon. Secondly, it is entirely possible that Solas was lying or being deliberately vague.

 

Now, the evidence for is less direct but no less strong; Solas appears to possess considerable knowledge about the blight. He's absolutely enraged with the Grey Warden's attempts at preempting it and suggests that killing off the archdemons wouldn't actually stop the blights, but make things worse. He appears very adamant in these beliefs; in dialogue he never offers evidence or a reason for his certainty beyond "for all we know, that could make things worse", and disapproves if the inquisitor argues in favor of the warden's intentions. Given Solas' true nature, he's in a position to know a thing or two about a thing or two.

 

Fen'Harel knowing that much about the nature of the blight would suggest a connection, though there are other possibilities.

 

A simple explanation of Solas' rage

Spoiler

at the Grey Wardens is his thoughts on spirits, he does not seem them as good or bad, just spirits. What the Grey Wardens were doing was binding them, removing their own free will, and making them targets. The spirits not the Grey Wardens, from what we know of Salos, he would be against that.

 

 

But like said, theory exists but I think it is a theory at best.

[Ranadiel Marius]

A simple explanation of Solas' rage

Spoiler

at the Grey Wardens is his thoughts on spirits, he does not seem them as good or bad, just spirits. What the Grey Wardens were doing was binding them, removing their own free will, and making them targets. The spirits not the Grey Wardens, from what we know of Salos, he would be against that.

But like said, theory exists but I think it is a theory at best.

Spoiler

Except that when you bring up the demon army and his anger towards the Grey Wardens his response is something along the lines of "What? Oh no the demons are a minor issue. The big issue is killing the Old Gods."

[Antergaton]

Spoiler

Except that when you bring up the demon army and his anger towards the Grey Wardens his response is something along the lines of "What? Oh no the demons are a minor issue. The big issue is killing the Archdenons."

 

Spoiler

Surely he should have no issue about the killing of Archdemons? unless he cares so little about the mortals Thedas. The archdemons are the corrupted/tainted old gods. It does make sense though as he may have an issue with killing the Old Gods in their prisons, as they have yet to be tainted, I guess. Sounds to me like that sentence was written wrong, swap Archdemons for 'Old Gods' and it makes sense.

 

It also does add to my reasons not to like him though.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Spoiler

Surely he should have no issue about the killing of Archdemons? unless he cares so little about the mortals Thedas. The archdemons are the corrupted/tainted old gods. It does make sense though as he may have an issue with killing the Old Gods in their prisons, as they have yet to be tainted, I guess. Sounds to me like that sentence was written wrong, swap Archdemons for 'Old Gods' and it makes sense.

It also does add to my reasons not to like him though.

You are right he was talking about old gods not archdemons, fixed my post.

[Mims]

I'm not sure if there's a connection between the old gods and the elven gods. But there is some overwhelming coincidences that seem too eerily similar to not have something to do with each other. 

 

First, the most damning reason against a connection: Solas says there's none. Its possible that he's lying. Its also possible that the actions of the other elven gods have continued forward without his knowledge. 

 

Ok, now it is time for the tin foil hat. 

 

Previously, the biggest evidence we had against the elven pantheon also being the old gods was the number. Nine elven gods, and seven old gods. But in DA:I, we learn something very key. There are seven sealed elven gods, and seven old gods. Fen'Harel and Mythal are not trapped. Fen'Harel is perfectly fine and well, and Mythal died before the others were sealed. This is a strange coincidence. 

 

Second is the eerie similarities between Arlathan and the Black City. We know that Fen'Harel sealed the gods away, and as a result of it, feels some pretty immense guilt. Part of this is due to the fact that his actions caused the fall of elven civilization in general. But could the black city be Arlathan? We know there is some connection between the blight and the black city, but that the blight also predated the magisters first breaching it. We also know that before the elven gods were sealed away, they had become corrupt and increasingly violent.

 

It is also worth mentioning that Arlathan was sunk by Tevintar. Had it been infected with red lyrium, this could be where it started to spread from. 

 

So- what if the elven gods were infected with the blight? Perhaps, through red lyrium? We know that the elven gods probably aren't 'true' gods. We also know that Solas can be infected with red lyrium thanks to the mage time travel mission.

 

I shall posit a strange timeline of events: the elven gods descend into a kind of blood lust, demanding immense sacrifices from their people. Fen'Harel, either aware of the blight or just aware that his fellows had gone mad, asks Mythal to intervene. Mythal had in the past intervened between the gods and the people. But when Mythal approaches her fellow gods, she's murdered. Fen'Harel is left alone, and takes desperate action. He seals the elven gods, and perhaps most of Arlathan, into the fade. What is left of Arlathan in the 'real' world is eventually conquered by the Tevintar.

 

 Fen'Harel sleeps to recover. What he does not know is that the fade allows the corrupted elven gods to communicate via dreams. There is even some possibility that they are able to manifest themselves into the bodies of dragons- there's a codex entry which suggests that elven gods considered a dragon form to be a form reserved only for them. Its also possible that Fen'Harel put what was left of the uncorrupted gods souls into dragons, which live a long time and would be theoretically safe. 

 

Whatever the case, the corrupted elven gods seduce the magisters into breaching the black city. More blight is released- and almost immediately the darkspawn go looking for the slumbering 'old gods' to corrupt. 

 

Now for some more rambling: there's a fair bit of theory going around that something very bad may happen if we were to ever get down to zero elven gods and zero old gods. I don't know if there's any proof as to what would happen, but we know Solas abhors the idea of killing the sleeping dragons, and one of Flemeth's daughters also suggests that there's more going on with those dragons then people realize. 

 

If for whatever reason the elven gods or old gods have some sort of tie to the life of the world, this does explain the desperate state the world is in. We have killed most of the old gods. If you didn't do the dark ritual, there's only two old gods and Fen'Harel left alive. This would also explain the end scene in the game. Both Fen'Harel and Mythal know that one of them needs to give power to the other now that the orb is destroyed. Fen'Harel knows it should be him. ['I should be the one to pay the price']. But he can't, if his life is actually important. 

 

Now, I am not saying I believe this crazy theory. But it has had me pondering. The biggest thing against it is that we get the sense Solas wants to free the elven gods, and if they were blighted, surely he'd have no reason to feel like he should. Unless, of course, he thinks he has a cure. Or perhaps things that he's able to kill them and eliminate the driving cause of the blight on his own. 

 

Edit: One other thing I forgot. This was recently found by Sashimi_Taco on reddit.  The whispers played backwards in the temple of Mythal are words. One of them mentions the calling, and that she's fallen. 

[Former_Fiend]

Spoiler

Surely he should have no issue about the killing of Archdemons? unless he cares so little about the mortals Thedas. The archdemons are the corrupted/tainted old gods. It does make sense though as he may have an issue with killing the Old Gods in their prisons, as they have yet to be tainted, I guess. Sounds to me like that sentence was written wrong, swap Archdemons for 'Old Gods' and it makes sense.

 

It also does add to my reasons not to like him though.

 

He also has a banter with Blackwall on the subject, usually triggers prior to the events at Adamant;

 

Spoiler

• Solas: The Wardens see themselves as the world's defense against the Blight, do they not?
• Blackwall: Yes... why do you sound so skeptical? Doesn't everyone know this?
• Solas: When an Archdemon rises, they slay it. What will they do when all the Archdemons are slain? Without Archdemons, there can be no Blights, is that the reasoning?
• Blackwall: Right. Where are you going with this?
• Solas: Nowhere. I hope they are correct.

 

Now, it doesn't really carry over in text, but his tone of voice in that conversation is one of a man who knows the right answer is different from the answer he's getting.

[myahele]

I think that the Forgotten One's could be the Original Rulers before they were cast down and forgotten.

The Elven "gods" did exist and there is some truth about how they ruled/what they did based on the myths: Ghilanain created creatures, FalonDin killed people that won't worship him, Mythal was a judge-like figure, etc.

With that said we know Elgarnan overthrew his nameless father to become the head of the pantheon. Meaning the Sun diety and Earth (maybe another....void?) Were once in power.

Also, according to Yavana there was a time before the veil where Dragons Ruled the skies. Perhaps the Old Gods = Forgotten Ones

[stephen_dedalus]

Irresponsible and unsupportable speculation ahead, with possible SPOILERS: what if Dalish lore regarding the Dread Wolf's treachery is really an allegorical myth about duality, and the Elven Gods and the Forgotten Ones are the exact same beings viewed from different perspectives or under different circumstances?  Just as a Spirit of Wisdom can become a Pride Demon,

Spoiler

as revealed in "All New, Faded for Her"

what if an Elven deity of maternal protection (such as Mythal) can become a demon of righteous retribution (I know that's not an established category in the game's demonic taxonomy, but it works here for the sake of illustration), or an Elven deity of paternalism (such as Elgar'nan) can become a demon of revenge?  In other words, what if the myth of the Dread Wolf tricking two distinct pantheons into imprisoning themselves outside of the physical world is some sort of allegory for the dual nature of personality, and the Old Gods / Forgotten Ones are simply the "dark" aspects or facets of complex beings that embody both light and dark, good and evil, etc.?  The mythical war between the Elven Gods and the Forgotten Ones could then be interpreted not as a military conflict between two rival factions, but as an internal conflict staged within the psyches of these beings, with not only their own capacity for self-control and self-determination at stake, but the fate of the Elvhen as well.  The Dread Wolf's endgame might then be supposed to have something to do with reuniting the bifurcated halves of his fellow gods after having taught them a difficult lesson about complementarity, balance, and their responsibility to their "children." There's already precedent for interpreting the Old Gods as "aspects" of the Elven Gods in some of the fan theories circulating on the internet and collected in this recent Kotaku piece:

 

"I posit that the Old Gods are aspects of the Elven Gods, minus Mythal and Fen'Harel...the Old Gods are incomplete remnants of the 7 missing members of the Elven Pantheon. They are what was left in the 'real world' after those members were either 'murdered' or 'sealed away.'"

http://kotaku.com/dr...-1671137779/all

 

And Reddit user Prophet of Silence considers the potential influence of perceptions and the role of duality here:

 

"Let's say that humans had begun to become prominent enough in the world. We also know that humans can shape the fade. What if human's perceptions or realities of these gods somehow effected their identities as spirits and "corrupted" them into demons."

http://www.reddit.co...ins_of_the_old/

 

Perhaps these "aspects" were present all along, and the "murder" or "sealing away" was less a betrayal than a revelation, less a deception than a perception of the intrinsically divided nature of these beings.  The cumulative effect of all of this is the suggestion that in Thedas, interpretation can co-determine the very nature of reality and influence the behaviors even of godlike entities.  The surface-level plot / narrative and the subtext achieve a provocatively close proximity here: they way we "read" a person or a situation shapes what that person or situation actually is, both literally and figuratively.

[Colonelkillabee]

So there is no connection (even a slight one) in Codex?

The  star puzzle things straight up says they were elven gods. There's no real mystery about it anymore.

[TheLastArchivist]

It all comes down to answering a few questions:

-What was Mythal's betrayal?

-Who is Fen'Harel, what is his relationship with Mythal and what did he do?

-Why are dragons Old Gods? How do they communicate with people telepathically?

-What is the taint? Why does it threaten the Elven Gods?

And of course, What are the Elven Gods? Merely High Spirits?

[Hellion Rex]

@OP, Undoubtedly.

[raging_monkey]

Irresponsible and unsupportable speculation ahead, with possible SPOILERS: what if Dalish lore regarding the Dread Wolf's treachery is really an allegorical myth about duality, and the Elven Gods and the Forgotten Ones are the exact same beings viewed from different perspectives or under different circumstances?  Just as a Spirit of Wisdom can become a Pride Demon,

Spoiler

as revealed in "All New, Faded for Her"

what if an Elven deity of maternal protection (such as Mythal) can become a demon of righteous retribution (I know that's not an established category in the game's demonic taxonomy, but it works here for the sake of illustration), or an Elven deity of paternalism (such as Elgar'nan) can become a demon of revenge?  In other words, what if the myth of the Dread Wolf tricking two distinct pantheons into imprisoning themselves outside of the physical world is some sort of allegory for the dual nature of personality, and the Old Gods / Forgotten Ones are simply the "dark" aspects or facets of complex beings that embody both light and dark, good and evil, etc.?  The mythical war between the Elven Gods and the Forgotten Ones could then be interpreted not as a military conflict between two rival factions, but as an internal conflict staged within the psyches of these beings, with not only their own capacity for self-control and self-determination at stake, but the fate of the Elvhen as well.  The Dread Wolf's endgame might then be supposed to have something to do with reuniting the bifurcated halves of his fellow gods after having taught them a difficult lesson about complementarity, balance, and their responsibility to their "children." There's already precedent for interpreting the Old Gods as "aspects" of the Elven Gods in some of the fan theories circulating on the internet and collected in this recent Kotaku piece: "I posit that the Old Gods are aspects of the Elven Gods, minus Mythal and Fen'Harel...the Old Gods are incomplete remnants of the 7 missing members of the Elven Pantheon. They are what was left in the 'real world' after those members were either 'murdered' or 'sealed away.'"http://kotaku.com/dr...-1671137779/all And Reddit user Prophet of Silence considers the potential influence of perceptions and the role of duality here:  "Let's say that humans had begun to become prominent enough in the world. We also know that humans can shape the fade. What if human's perceptions or realities of these gods somehow effected their identities as spirits and "corrupted" them into demons."http://www.reddit.co...ins_of_the_old/ Perhaps these "aspects" were present all along, and the "murder" or "sealing away" was less a betrayal than a revelation, less a deception than a perception of the intrinsically divided nature of these beings.  The cumulative effect of all of this is the suggestion that in Thedas, interpretation can co-determine the very nature of reality and influence the behaviors even of godlike entities.  The surface-level plot / narrative and the subtext achieve a provocatively close proximity here: they way we "read" a person or a situation shapes what that person or situation actually is, both literally and figuratively.

* claps in approval* very interesting...

[Reznore57]

It all comes down to answering a few questions:

-What was Mythal's betrayal?

-Who is Fen'Harel, what is his relationship with Mythal and what did he do?

-Why are dragons Old Gods? How do they communicate with people telepathically?

-What is the taint? Why does it threaten the Elven Gods?

And of course, What are the Elven Gods? Merely High Spirits?

 

MMm I think from what I saw in the temple of Mythal , this is my crazy theory about what happened:

 

There were some elves seen as "Gods" , I have no idea what their true nature was , but they were way better mages than anything possible in current Thedas.

Those beings were able to turn into high dragons , and it was seen as a divine form .

Now you weren't born a god , you were made one.

That's what the story of Ghilan' nain is about.She was an elf , it seems a follower of Andruil , and started to create monsters left and right.Andruil liked her well enough and decided to give Ghilan'nain a place among the Gods.

 

Now the elven gods were cruel , Falon Din was a tyrant , Andruil liked to have sacrifice made in her name , and it seems Elgar'nan fury was pretty terrible.

Mythal was keeping thing in order though , she saved Andruil from madness and corruption , fought Falon 'Din , and also was busy judging the elves who were tired of Elgar'nan justice (I imagine his view of justice was burning places down).

At this point I assume Mythal was one of the most beloved Gods.

 

Then Ghilan'nain went to an elf (someone following Dirthamen , BFF of Falon Din) and told him he should turn into a dragon.I suppose she told him if she was made a God , it could happen to him too afterall.

Thing is shapeshifting into a dragon was seen as Divine and only the Gods could do it , so the dude basically made a big etiquette mistake.

He asked Mythal to protect him .

Mythal decided to not deal with that , and let Elgar'nan judge the man .

Now I suppose at this point Mythal is in a terrible position , she was seen as harsh but fair ...but what could she possibly do?

If she forgive the man , now her people might think Godhood is for everyone , and people would start turning into dragons left and right.

If she punish him , she's unfair , the dude was basically tricked by another God.

So she just washed her hand and let mister no self control ElGar'nan bring justice.And Elgar'nan probably killed a lot of people .

It seems the people instead of being scared into submission , started to get really pissed off .

 

So a rebellion begins and some decide to kill the Gods , Andruil gets involved in this ...I believe she killed Mythal .Maybe she wanted Mythal position , maybe she was unhappy Mythal fought her and won in the past , maybe Andruil got corrupted deeply by the "Void" and was furious Mythal erased her knowkedge of the place.(think Corynoob who got tainted by the Golden city and still wants to go back there anyway)

 

Anyway whatever happened once Mythal is killed , chaos for everyone!She was the one ruling the others gods and keeping everything in check.

It's possible Fen Harel was at first involved in the rebellion , but probably decided to backpedal  once Mythal was slain.(afterall Solas says he enjoy court intrigue , despise all the slavery , and that he made the mistake to trust his friends in the past , so I'm thinking he got fooled at some point )

 

Another possibility is ...there's not much talk about Elgar'nan involvement .It's strange.

Also Mythal was draw to Flemeth who got married to a lord purely for pragmatism , then her husband betrayed her and killed the one she used to love.

So errr...were Mythal and Fen Harel involved at one point?Or at least got close enough , Elgar'nan got jealous , bought himself a brain , and made a plan to overthrow his wife from power manipulating their "children"?

 

 

[Eveangaline]

Or maybe the old gods wanted to break into the golden city to steal power from the elven gods and that ended very very badly for them. Who can say.

[stephen_dedalus]

* claps in approval* very interesting...

Thanks! I should specify, though, that in this scenario the power of interpretation seems both limited and variable.  I wouldn't want to suggest a kind of naive relativism in which anyone or anything in Thedas is whatever an observer says it is or thinks it is. For example, if you talk to the requisitions officer in Haven, or if you discuss Solas' travels in the Fade and ask him about battles he's witnessed, you'll get some sympathetic takes on Loghain's actions at Ostagar.  But nobody claims that Loghain didn't retreat and abandon Cailan and the Wardens.  Some people just see his actions as more or less reasonable or justifiable.  So, there is an objectively verifiable event (Loghain retreats, abandoning his King), but there is no one objective way of characterizing that event (it is an unconscionable betrayal to some, but a responsible decision to others--subjective perception defines the quality or character of the event, but not the event itself).  However, if the Old Gods / Forgotten Ones and the Elven pantheon are simply allegorical figures representing the two sides of the complex personalities of the same beings, and if the way these beings are viewed or perceived at any given moment can co-determine which sides of their personalities are actually dominant, then Fade entities might be more literally shaped by interpretation than flesh-and-blood creatures.  The stability and fixity of corporeality might limit one's power to shape reality, but it also seems to limit one's vulnerability or susceptibility to being shaped by others' interpretations.  So: interpretation of physical persons and events seems to define those things only in a figurative or conceptual sense, but interpretation of persons and things made of Fade-stuff seems more literally to be a reality-shaping phenomenon. 

 

Even more intriguing to me is the possibility that this allegory is embedded within a larger allegory (insert obligatory Inception joke here), which would be a meta-allegory about the power of storytelling (something Bioware prides itself on).  Legends and tales shape and inspire us, but they are of course invented by us, and they are perpetually being rewritten, revised, and otherwise adjusted to fit and facilitate new interpretations.  Our gods and our heroes are our inventions, but they in turn (re)invent us, and we exist with them in a reciprocally influential feedback loop.  In the narrative space of the fictional world of Thedas, our legends can actually become personified and walk among us, interacting with us and being affected by us in strange, frightening, and exhilarating ways.  Perhaps this is the function of the Elven Gods and their dark sides (Forgotten Ones / Old Gods): to remind us about our relationship to the stories we tell, and to remind us that our legends can take on lives of their own.