221 réponses à ce sujet

[Norwood06]

Yes, she is a chav, a very good chav. Since we all love chavs in real life it was a good idea to put a chav in the game to reflect that love.

 

(points) It's a brit! C'mere and talk british to my kid! 

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

(points) It's a brit! C'mere and talk british to my kid! 

The point I was making was simple; few people here would willingly associate with a chav in real life and enjoy it but then they claim to do so in this game? I completely understand where Sera is coming from, you can find her kind wandering the streets of any decent sized English city and in doing so you can understand why implementing her the way she was implemented makes little sense.

[berrieh]

Yes, she is a chav, a very good chav. Since we all love chavs in real life it was a good idea to put a chav in the game to reflect that love.

 

The point I was making was simple; few people here would willingly associate with a chav in real life and enjoy it but then they claim to do so in this game? I completely understand where Sera is coming from, you can find her kind wandering the streets of any decent sized English city and in doing so you can understand why implementing her the way she was implemented makes little sense.

 

Why should only the types of people we like be represented in a game? I can understand and empathize with Sera, a few of my characters have even liked her, but you're right, as a person, she's not the type I'd want to be around IRL (outside of a teaching or mentoring situation). 

 

Also, of course I'll do things in a story I wouldn't IRL! That's half the fun of RPing. 

 

I do not understand why you're saying her implementation makes little sense. What part of the implementation was actually poor? (To be fair, I'm not unfamiliar with the term chav and I'm a well-traveled American, but I am an American, so maybe there's some deeply British point you're making that I'm missing.) 

[KaiserShep]

The point I was making was simple; few people here would willingly associate with a chav in real life and enjoy it but then they claim to do so in this game? I completely understand where Sera is coming from, you can find her kind wandering the streets of any decent sized English city and in doing so you can understand why implementing her the way she was implemented makes little sense.

Honestly, I wouldn't associate with any of the character types in these games in real life. My PC's are far crazier than I could ever be.

I don't think there's much of a point to trying to analyze the characters to determine who fits what in the story. Whether or not one enjoys the dynamic between that character and the PC is all that really matters. If you don't, whether or not they fit doesn't really help much.

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

Why should only the types of people we like be represented in a game? I can understand and empathize with Sera, a few of my characters have even liked her, but you're right, as a person, she's not the type I'd want to be around IRL (outside of a teaching or mentoring situation). 

 

Also, of course I'll do things in a story I wouldn't IRL! That's half the fun of RPing. 

 

I do not understand why you're saying her implementation makes little sense. What part of the implementation was actually poor? (To be fair, I'm not unfamiliar with the term chav and I'm a well-traveled American, but I am an American, so maybe there's some deeply British point you're making that I'm missing.) 

The point is more that a chav does not contribute anything to the Inquisition. She is an excellent chav but why or how would a chav be part of this organisation? Look, I romanced her and offered concessions to her simply to continue the romance, never once did she reflect on the possibility that things might be different than she had previously believed. 

 

In 2011 there were riots in London. I was living there at the time. Looters (chavs) angry at the world for being the world, so they destroyed shops, pillaged, stole, the usual. There was a big shopping street with shops broken into, windows smashed in, etc. with the exception of a book store, true story. That is the kind of person Sera is; I am angry at the nobility so let's mess with them and kill them sometimes. Even if the Inquisition has larger, overarching goals, she cannot once set aside her pettiness. Does she actually believe knocking off the legs of Cullen's desk will somehow improve leadership? She was put into the game to exasperate people and in that she was well implemented but the final point shall be that whether you like her or not, a chav has no place in the Inquisition, especially one with her attitude.

[jsachun]

This is the masterpiece so far.

 

 

Even the trailer is more epic.

[berrieh]

The point is more that a chav does not contribute anything to the Inquisition. She is an excellent chav but why or how would a chav be part of this organisation? Look, I romanced her and offered concessions to her simply to continue the romance, never once did she reflect on the possibility that things might be different than she had previously believed. 

 

In 2011 there were riots in London. I was living there at the time. Looters (chavs) angry at the world for being the world, so they destroyed shops, pillaged, stole, the usual. There was a big shopping street with shops broken into, windows smashed in, etc. with the exception of a book store, true story. That is the kind of person Sera is; I am angry at the nobility so let's mess with them and kill them sometimes. Even if the Inquisition has larger, overarching goals, she cannot once set aside her pettiness. Does she actually believe knocking off the legs of Cullen's desk will somehow improve leadership? She was put into the game to exasperate people and in that she was well implemented but the final point shall be that whether you like her or not, a chav has no place in the Inquisition, especially one with her attitude.

 

See, I see Sera as someone who wants to stay with the Inquisition because she is terrified. Under all her bluster, she's basically just a big ball of fear and loneliness. That's why she wants to be in the Inquisition. She does want to be a part of something, and she wants to trust someone, and this was the chance she took. It seems fairly easy for me to believe - yes, she argues her sometimes misguided points to frustration. But isn't that what young people do? 

 

As to why you'd want to have her? Well, there are lots of reasons, but that's an RP decision to be made in-game. For my Dalish Inquisitor, who she hated, I wanted to have her because she was an Elf, and I feel like the Lavallan Clan, based on what we know of them, is one of the few that cares about the fate of Elves living among humans. She had no desire to give up on Sera, no matter how rude or awful she was. My Lavallan was also very kind and forgiving in general. For my Mage Qunari, it was because she was hot, at first, and later because she made her happy (they romanced) and my Qunari Mage wasn't so concerned about personal morals, religion, or any of that bullshit. She was short with Sera when her actions threatened her leadership, but the romance still blossomed, etc. My human noble actually kicked her out after the event in her personal quest. I imagine my Carta dwarf (soon) will find her both amusing and her friends useful. We will see if my next Dalish character is as forgiving. Etc. 

 

Why does Sten join the Warden? Why does Oghren? Why does the Warden ever accept Zevran, of all things? 

 

Why the heck does Fenris fight with me against the Templars and for the Mages when rivaled? Why does Merrill fight with me against the Mages when rivaled, or hang out with me at all, when I and my friends just treat her like dirt for being a blood mage? 

 

If you twist the companions about and about, you can find plenty of these. Sera has a good reason to want shelter in a big organization (is it slightly hypocritical? Yes. Do I believe that people have hypocritical tendencies? Yes! Most people do!). And, if you don't see her as part of your organization, you can both turn her down at the beginning and ask her to leave at any time.

[Ieldra]

@OP:

 

Three points:

 

(1) I agree that DAI appears a little unfocused overall. That comes from the attempt to combine open-world gameplay with a focused story. The result wasn't perfect, but for me personally, it worked rather well. I'd rather have Bioware try to refine this new identity than attempting to copy the old stuff.

 

(2) You're speaking of an identity crisis, and I agree but see the difference somewhere else. DAO took inspiration from A Song of Ice and Fire in many things, and DAI feels tame in comparison. For instance, basically anything that can't be made gender-neutral has been removed from anywhere but the romances, and the whole world has been changed to accomodate that new direction. Something like DAO's City Elf Origin could never exist in DAI. That it doesn't exist is not necessarily a problem, but the impression that it couldn't exist, that makes the world feel tame and artificial at times.

 

(3) You totally lost me when you compared ME2/3 favorably to DAI because of clichés and roleplaying. ME2/3 had a barely existing roleplaying dimension, and it was a cliché storm of the first order, where - very much unlike in DAI - some of the clichés were forcibly attached to your main character through auto-dialogue.

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

See, I see Sera as someone who wants to stay with the Inquisition because she is terrified. Under all her bluster, she's basically just a big ball of fear and loneliness. That's why she wants to be in the Inquisition. She does want to be a part of something, and she wants to trust someone, and this was the chance she took. It seems fairly easy for me to believe - yes, she argues her sometimes misguided points to frustration. But isn't that what young people do? 

 

As to why you'd want to have her? Well, there are lots of reasons, but that's an RP decision to be made in-game. For my Dalish Inquisitor, who she hated, I wanted to have her because she was an Elf, and I feel like the Lavallan Clan, based on what we know of them, is one of the few that cares about the fate of Elves living among humans. She had no desire to give up on Sera, no matter how rude or awful she was. My Lavallan was also very kind and forgiving in general. For my Mage Qunari, it was because she was hot, at first, and later because she made her happy (they romanced) and my Qunari Mage wasn't so concerned about personal morals, religion, or any of that bullshit. She was short with Sera when her actions threatened her leadership, but the romance still blossomed, etc. My human noble actually kicked her out after the event in her personal quest. I imagine my Carta dwarf (soon) will find her both amusing and her friends useful. We will see if my next Dalish character is as forgiving. Etc. 

I spent a whole game romancing her, you can watch it below. I was waiting for a moment when she might realise there was a bigger picture; I get that she is afraid but there should have been some personal growth. All a moot point, if I do more than 2 playthroughs I won't be taking her again let alone romancing her. Apparently if you are an elf and romance her she tells you to give up being an elf, lovely.

 

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

@OP:

 

Three points:

 

(1) I agree that DAI appears a little unfocused overall. That comes from the attempt to combine open-world gameplay with a focused story. The result wasn't perfect, but for me personally, it worked rather well. I'd rather have Bioware try to refine this new identity than attempting to copy the old stuff.

 

(2) You're speaking of an identity crisis, and I agree but see the difference somewhere else. DAO took inspiration from A Song of Ice and Fire in many things, and DAI feels tame in comparison. For instance, basically anything that can't be made gender-neutral has been removed from anywhere but the romances, and the whole world has been changed to accomodate that new direction. Something like DAO's City Elf Origin could never exist in DAI. That it doesn't exist is not necessarily a problem, but the impression that it couldn't exist, that makes the world feel tame and artificial at times.

 

(3) You totally lost me when you compared ME2/3 favorably to DAI because of clichés and roleplaying. ME2/3 had a barely existing roleplaying dimension, and it was a cliché storm of the first order, where - very much unlike in DAI - some of the clichés were forcibly attached to your main character through auto-dialogue.

I am surprised that one of fellow antiquity would feel this way. Why is using well functioning and effective story formulae merely "copying old stuff"? There are reasons why it has worked. 

[berrieh]

I spent a whole game romancing her, you can watch it below. I was waiting for a moment when she might realise there was a bigger picture; I get that she is afraid but there should have been some personal growth. All a moot point, if I do more than 2 playthroughs I won't be taking her again let alone romancing her. Apparently if you are an elf and romance her she tells you to give up being an elf, lovely.

 

I understand what you're saying entirely, but I don't think it's completely unrealistic that she has little personal growth (she does have some, though, but it's not any the Inquisitor personally controls - most of her "growth" which may or may not be in a good direction is becoming more devout as an Andrastian, but she also grows in opening up to people, etc). It seems entirely realistic to me. 

 

That doesn't mean that I don't get why people dislike Sera, but I think games are better if they have some characters to dislike or at least consider disliking. I ****** hate Ashley from ME1 and am always happy to leave her behind (sorry she had to die, I mean, I'm not heartless) because she's an annoying xenophobe, but I can get both her good points and why that makes her a good character. In fact, I even RPed a Shep that saved her once and let her grow through all 3 games. There are lots of other BioWare characters I personally don't like or didn't like in some playthroughs. (I hated Oghren the first time and basically until I played DA:A where he gets an actual redemption - because I can't stand middle-aged, male, self-pitying alcoholics - but I didn't question why he existed.) 

[MrMrPendragon]

I agree with you on the plot.

 

It's very short and the only thing that kept it longer than it should have been is the power requirement - and that's not even a trouble to get. The plot is more of a piecing together bits of lore than actually telling a story. Although I was happy with how much elven lore is present in this game, I was not happy with the villain or the threat he posed. In the end, his motivations were still vague since we actually don't learn much about the Black City. All throughout the game we're supposed to keep this guy from reaching it, but we don't even know what's in there.

 

I also want to say that DAI felt a lot less grittier and dark compared to DAO. You didn't have your betrayals or scheming found in DAO, which is weird because the death of the divine is a prime playground for some good conspiracy storyline. And more grounded side quests/storylines, like the oppression of the city elves (like the city elf origin) are nowhere to be found. It's all fantasy this time around.

[Norwood06]

I am surprised that one of fellow antiquity would feel this way. Why is using well functioning and effective story formulae merely "copying old stuff"? There are reasons why it has worked. 

 
The same reason songwriters can't write the same thing over and over again, actors the same role, or directors make the same movie.  It eventually wears thin.  Do you want to play re-hashes of baldur's gate or kotor forever?  Always have to try to adapt / improve / try new things. 

[CronoDragoon]

Apparently if you are an elf and romance her she tells you to give up being an elf, lovely.

 

As she should, given Dalish attitudes towards city elves. She ends up being totally correct in her assessment of the ridiculousness of Dalish culture, by the way.

 

I'm playing a Dalish on my second playthrough and I cannot wait until my PC's views come crashing down around her, combined with Solas removing her slave tattoos.

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

 
The same reason songwriters can't write the same thing over and over again, actors the same role, or directors make the same movie.  It eventually wears thin.  Do you want to play re-hashes of baldur's gate or kotor forever?  Always have to try to adapt / improve / try new things. 

Human beings thrive on repetition. It is the reason why the same themes and tropes never cease to fascinate them, the hero and the girl trope for example. For millennia this has never worn thin. Creating a a disjointed jack of all trades game seems the wrong route to go, when older (successful) aspects could be better refined.

[CronoDragoon]

Human beings thrive on repetition. It is the reason why the same themes and tropes never cease to fascinate them, the hero and the girl trope for example.

 

Actually tropes can often cease to fascinate people. They are then called cliches.

 

My gaming life certainly doesn't thrive on repetition.

[Maiafay]

Dorian and Sera are actually the most complex, but hey, whatever.

[Norwood06]

Human beings thrive on repetition. It is the reason why the same themes and tropes never cease to fascinate them, the hero and the girl trope for example. For millennia this has never worn thin. Creating a a disjointed jack of all trades game seems the wrong route to go, when older (successful) aspects could be better refined.

 

I doubt bioware intended to make a disjointed jack-of-all trades, even if that was the result.  In theory, combining a bioware narrative with a sandbox open world sounds cool.  But to each his own. 

[DeLaatsteGeitenneuker]

Actually tropes can often cease to fascinate people. They are then called cliches.

 

My gaming life certainly doesn't thrive on repetition.

It might be a generational thing. I miss such stories as that of BG2 but that was long ago.

[berrieh]

What generation are you, Stardusk? I'm in my 30s, played games since I was 5, as a teen went through a phase where I'd only play RPGs (Western and JRPGs though), and I don't want rehashes of BG or even DAO. I want the genre to continue to evolve. I think it's more a personality thing than a generational thing, personally. 

 

I doubt bioware intended to make a disjointed jack-of-all trades, even if that was the result.  In theory, combining a bioware narrative with a sandbox open world sounds cool.  But to each his own. 

 

Some of us don't agree that was the result. BioWare attempted to utilize the open world to make Dragon Age different but still retain its storytelling prowess. Personally, I feel they succeeded. You can disagree, of course, and we will see at the end of the day how it sold and was received en masse and not just on the BSN and that will shape further directions, I imagine. So far, outside of here, it's gotten a very warm reception (GOTY nods and everything, attracted new fans, made many of the old ones happy though not all, etc). Not sure on sales, but they say exceeded expectations - too early to really tell much, though, I imagine. 

[CronoDragoon]

It might be a generational thing. I miss such stories as that of BG2 but that was long ago.

 

But Baldur's Gate 2 is a wildly unfocused game as well. The difference between BG2 and DA: I is that BG2 has better stories for its sidequests whereas DA: I tends to rely on codices to tell the stories of each zone. I see this issue as something that can be improved for DA4, and doesn't require a complete rework. For example, I think most people agree Crestwood has a great zone quest. Emprise is pretty good as well. If every zone had a story to tell that was more robust, had more cutscenes, etc, that culminated in a judgement that has consequences on the zone, then I think it would have been a wild success. As it is, I find the main zone quest for the optional zones pretty underwhelming, and I'm curious to see if DLC can help fill those empty zones (Storm Coast, Hissing Wastes, etc).

[9TailsFox]

 
The same reason songwriters can't write the same thing over and over again, actors the same role, or directors make the same movie.  It eventually wears thin.  Do you want to play re-hashes of baldur's gate or kotor forever?  Always have to try to adapt / improve / try new things. 

Yes please all I want is DA:O or DA2 only new story. DA:I having open world filed with filer quest is worst think ever happen to DA.

[berrieh]

But Baldur's Gate 2 is a wildly unfocused game as well. The difference between BG2 and DA: I is that BG2 has better stories for its sidequests whereas DA: I tends to rely on codices to tell the stories of each zone. I see this issue as something that can be improved for DA4, and doesn't require a complete rework. For example, I think most people agree Crestwood has a great zone quest. Emprise is pretty good as well. If every zone had a story to tell that was more robust, had more cutscenes, etc, that culminated in a judgement that has consequences on the zone, then I think it would have been a wild success. As it is, I find the main zone quest for the optional zones pretty underwhelming, and I'm curious to see if DLC can help fill those empty zones (Storm Coast, Hissing Wastes, etc).

 

I agree with you that this is the direction to go. Culminating scenes for the "main side stories" in each zone would've solved a lot of people's problems. I'm OK with it as is but would see that as even better. 

 

I'm doubtful they'll fill with DLC, but we'll see. Maybe. 

 

I'm hopeful they'll improve this idea with DA4. Or even a similar idea with ME4 (really looking forward to that now that I've seen DAI). 

[Norwood06]

But Baldur's Gate 2 is a wildly unfocused game as well. The difference between BG2 and DA: I is that BG2 has better stories for its sidequests whereas DA: I tends to rely on codices to tell the stories of each zone. I see this issue as something that can be improved for DA4, and doesn't require a complete rework. For example, I think most people agree Crestwood has a great zone quest. Emprise is pretty good as well. If every zone had a story to tell that was more robust, had more cutscenes, etc, that culminated in a judgement that has consequences on the zone, then I think it would have been a wild success. As it is, I find the main zone quest for the optional zones pretty underwhelming, and I'm curious to see if DLC can help fill those empty zones (Storm Coast, Hissing Wastes, etc).

 

Completely agreed.  It feels like the writers didn't have enough time to fill the massive space.

[CronoDragoon]

I'm doubtful they'll fill with DLC, but we'll see. Maybe. 

 

I doubt it as well, but personally I think the best DLC idea that would add the most to this game is a pack of vignettes (4-5 sidequests that are 30 mins to 1 hour in length packaged together for $9.99) peppered into the zones that need a bit more substance. Do this for two or even three packs and suddenly you have a game overflowing with quality sidequests.