Aller au contenu

Photo

Are the Dalish elves way worse then the city elves?


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
376 réponses à ce sujet

#251
EmissaryofLies

EmissaryofLies
  • Members
  • 2 695 messages

Oh, come on. Most of the magic in DAI is of elven origin. Even Tevinter's, assuming you believe those stories. They contribute manipulating the Veil- for good or ill. Plus, they don't have to justify their existence any more or less than anyone else. I could ask what humans contribute to Thedas, since assuming they're the only ones who can govern is a pretty bigoted statement. And the Qunari can keep their "purpose."

 

I remain skeptical of their contributions to magic. The humans bring the Chantry (as much as I hate them and their faith, I cannot deny the good that it has done), they bring empire, they bring industry. I did not state or insinuate that they are the only ones who can govern, not sure what formed that impression. The Qun also has great technology and possibly provides better lives for the elves if DA II and Inquisition's 'Demand of the Qun' are any indication.

 

It's really sad. That being said, I hope that it changes.



#252
Colonelkillabee

Colonelkillabee
  • Members
  • 8 467 messages
snip

Are we really sinking this low now? You got bored enough with the topic to start using Ad Hominems that aren't even relevant?

 

You spend a lot of time dropping walls of text on a subject you think is supposedly no longer relevant. Jesus Christ, give it a rest.


  • Roamingmachine aime ceci

#253
EmissaryofLies

EmissaryofLies
  • Members
  • 2 695 messages

inc red sticker.

 

We all should form a group.  :lol:



#254
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 683 messages

They want to be ruled by mages but also treat them as disposable. They want to return to the old ways, but are pretending they're Andrastians when it comes to magic. They lament dwindling numbers of mages but force their own young mages out. If you don't see the hypocrisy there, it's because you don't want to see it, which is pretty much how most of these discussions go.

 

Actually, it's more like you not establishing hypocrisy. To be ruled by mages does not require all mages to be leaders. To exile some does not mean that all are treated as disposable. You are inventing absolutes where they are none, and finding discrepancy with your own inventions. You're basically just strawmanning the Dalish.

 

That they want the old ways to return, but don't know what they were and so act otherwise, is also not hypocrisy. It is ignorance- and by definition, hypocrisy has to be contrary to a stated (and known) standard.
 

 

He has plenty of dialogue about what he thinks would make the world better. I still don't see why it's at all relevant. He's not Dalish.

 

 

It's relevant because Solas is in the ideal position of a critic- to be outside of power and responsibility, free to criticize errors while not having to face any of the issues or drawbacks of implementing his own. His promises, by virtue of not having to be made real, are ideals and without flaw.

 

Oho, they most certainly do. They aren't forcing people to become mages (no need to state the obvious), but their system is set up to ensure that they're the only ones who benefit from magic's use. Mages are forced to live in the Tower where only the Chantry can dispose of their gifts. The Chantry controls lyrium trade, or it did, giving them a monopoly on one of the most powerful substances in Thedas, ensuring their warriors remain enslaved to them and mages aren't able to access greater power outside their dispensation without turning to blood magic- for which they give themselves sanction to kill them. They force people to become Tranquil which gives them a steady supply of enchanters and worker bees, which is what finances the whole system.

 

 

Factually incorrect. The Chantry does not have a monopoly on the Circle's services- aside from court mages, the Circle's commerce and sales are directly to the public, with proceeds going to the Circles and not the Chantry (or the Templars).

 

Nor has the lyrium monopoly been used as leverage (or a blockade) to force changes to Circle policies. Nor is the Chantry responsible for the selection of Tranquil, as quotas or otherwise. The vast majority of Tranquil (as in, those who are not products of the rare abuses by Templars as a punishment) are condemned by their own mage leadership- who also direct and profit the commerce of the Circles. Which, by the word of god and no in-lore contradiction, does not go to the Chantry.

 


As for risk mitigation, once again, giving up one of your most valuable resources is a pretty good way to ensure you're too weak to combat whatever dangers you face.

 

 

They aren't giving up all mages, however. They are only giving up excess mages- quite a different thing from totally giving 'most valuable resources.'

 

Nor would a handful of mages be a significant safeguard to most of the dangers a Clan faces. One two, or even a dozen mages wouldn't make the Dalish safe from Human/Templar attacks and retaliation. It wouldn't change the weather. And by the implicit estimate, it wouldn't protect more than it endanger the clan from an internal abomination threat.

 

Oh, come on. Most of the magic in DAI is of elven origin. Even Tevinter's, assuming you believe those stories. They contribute manipulating the Veil- for good or ill. Plus, they don't have to justify their existence any more or less than anyone else. I could ask what humans contribute to Thedas, since assuming they're the only ones who can govern is a pretty bigoted statement. And the Qunari can keep their "purpose."

 

 

 

The elven magics that contribute to manipulating the Veil really can't be credited to any of the elves still alive. Those are ancient relics- which would be about as meaningful to credit to contemporary elves as crediting the Blight to modern Tevinter. They didn't do it,don't even understand how it works, and probably couldn't replicate it if they tried.



#255
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 683 messages

Are we really sinking this low now? You got bored enough with the topic to start using Ad Hominems that aren't even relevant?

 

 

Ad hominem would require a direct attack on Lobsel's character rather than his argument. I didn't. I make no pretense of respecting him, but attacking the weakness of his arguments and how he presents them is not a personal attack on his character.
 

 

You spend a lot of time dropping walls of text on a subject you think is supposedly no longer relevant. Jesus Christ, give it a rest.

 

 

 

Clearly you are a moral authority worthy of respect and listening to.

 

I am enlightened, and so chastised that I take my leave for... however long I feel like after I do what I need to IRL.



#256
Colonelkillabee

Colonelkillabee
  • Members
  • 8 467 messages

Ad hominem would require a direct attack on Lobsel's character rather than his argument. I didn't. I make no pretense of respecting him, but attacking the weakness of his arguments and how he presents them is not a personal attack on his character.
 

 

Clearly you are a moral authority worthy of respect and listening to.

 

I am enlightened, and so chastised that I take my leave for... however long I feel like after I do what I need to IRL.

And what exactly does talking about them continuing an argument months old when they were gone from the forum have to do with the topic?

 

You're damn right I am, lol. When the conversation degrades to talking about who's stalking who, that's when I get bored. And the conversation was already repeating itself into a dull vortex of redundancy anyway without this. It happens to the best of us, I can attest for that, but this isn't worthy of any of you.



#257
Addai

Addai
  • Members
  • 25 850 messages

I remain skeptical of their contributions to magic. The humans bring the Chantry (as much as I hate them and their faith, I cannot deny the good that it has done), they bring empire, they bring industry. I did not state or insinuate that they are the only ones who can govern, not sure what formed that impression. The Qun also has great technology and possibly provides better lives for the elves if DA II and Inquisition's 'Demand of the Qun' are any indication.
 
It's really sad. That being said, I hope that it changes.

The elves and dwarves both had huge empires, the technology of which the humans are still exploiting today. You said the humans provide government, implying nobody else can do the same. Or do you mean to say because most elves live in poverty and exploitation now, that's all they're ever good for? Because...
 
And the Qun can keep their "better life," too. I'd not trade one slavery for another.

Actually, it's more like you not establishing hypocrisy. To be ruled by mages does not require all mages to be leaders. To exile some does not mean that all are treated as disposable. You are inventing absolutes where they are none, and finding discrepancy with your own inventions. You're basically just strawmanning the Dalish.

The hypocrisy is obvious but discussing with you is like beating my head against a brick wall.

It's relevant because Solas is in the ideal position of a critic- to be outside of power and responsibility, free to criticize errors while not having to face any of the issues or drawbacks of implementing his own. His promises, by virtue of not having to be made real, are ideals and without flaw.

And he is relevant to a discussion of the Dalish how?

Factually incorrect. The Chantry does not have a monopoly on the Circle's services- aside from court mages, the Circle's commerce and sales are directly to the public, with proceeds going to the Circles and not the Chantry (or the Templars).

Oh please. I really am not going to go over basic facts of the world setting. Who controls the Circles? Do you mean to say lyrium is not used as a means of control, when Alistair and Cullen state the opposite?

Never mind. I'm done discussing with you as it brings nothing.
  • Roamingmachine, LobselVith8 et dragonflight288 aiment ceci

#258
helpthisguyplease

helpthisguyplease
  • Members
  • 809 messages

Man its Christmas its a time of peace and understanding(even the mods took of the notice of closure) so lets stop being agressive, also 11 pages of little about elves and more about mages its something I did not expect. Listens to some Carols if you know some if not listen to some Christmas carols.



#259
EmissaryofLies

EmissaryofLies
  • Members
  • 2 695 messages

The elves and dwarves both had huge empires, the technology of which the humans are still exploiting today. You said the humans provide government, implying nobody else can do the same. Or do you mean to say because most elves live in poverty and exploitation now, that's all they're ever good for? Because...
 
And the Qun can keep their "better life," too. I'd not trade one slavery for another.

 

Exactly; "had". Saying that the humans provide stability does not mean that no one else is capable of doing so. Perhaps "the humans run the show" illustrates that point better to you?

 

The problem is that elves do not have their hands in anything. The other races do. Having the elves play an important role in Dragon Age is needed to help alleviate their pervasive negative perception and reputation for "not caring for anyone but themselves" to paraphrase Harding's perception of the Dalish. I hope Bioware can do better than Briala in bringing them to the table as a whole.



#260
HTTP 404

HTTP 404
  • Members
  • 4 631 messages

The city elves chose to assimilate to human society by living in segregated ghettos as impoverished second-class citizens (not even citizens) and occasionally as victims of human nobles and pogroms. They're rather more pathetic. And I am sick of people complaining about how "the Dalish won't lift a finger to help them". What the hell exactly do you expect the Dalish to do? Invade the human cities and tear down the alienages? That's suicide. They can only help the City Elves who manage to leave and find and join the Dalish clans which many clans are prepared to accept as members. And you are so over-blowing their sense of superiority. I doubt they have anything against dwarves and qunari. Meanwhile, Andrastian Humans see themselves as being above the Tevinters, the elves, the qunari and any heretics/heathens. Except for the dwarves because its smarter to be politically correct when it comes to dwarves. Even Tevinters are smart enough to do that.

 

And the symbols of the tattoos have changed. They used to be slave markings, now they're symbols of their perseverance. They're not gonna be diminished. The crucifix used to be a torture device, now its a freaking holy icon.

 

I swear this was a political forum with that response. lol.  Your opinion is like blaming poor people for being poor.  There are more ways to help the impoverished instead of violence.   You do realize that right?  I also was never talking about the dwarves, tevinter, Andrasitans, etc.

 

Thanks for putting words in my mouth.  Merry Christmas!



#261
HTTP 404

HTTP 404
  • Members
  • 4 631 messages

So why does this thread risk closure?

 

 

I posted my opinion in a fairly light manner and got a really hostile response.  I would think this thread is a risk of closure.



#262
Colonelkillabee

Colonelkillabee
  • Members
  • 8 467 messages

They did make some good points though, especially about our Christian Crucifix.



#263
HTTP 404

HTTP 404
  • Members
  • 4 631 messages

They did make some good points though, especially about our Christian Crucifix.

I am not arguing the good counter points, I am all about a good debate over a beer type of guy.  I am not about whatever this type of discussion is called.   :)


  • TK514 aime ceci

#264
Colonelkillabee

Colonelkillabee
  • Members
  • 8 467 messages

I am not arguing the good counter points, I am all about a good debate over a beer type of guy.  I am not about whatever this type of discussion is called.   :)

A little butthurt with a heavy dose of douchebaggery in equal servings, I'd say, lol. Enough to go around.


  • HTTP 404 aime ceci

#265
errantknight

errantknight
  • Members
  • 879 messages

Umm...Merry Christmas?



#266
dragonflight288

dragonflight288
  • Members
  • 8 852 messages

Merry Christmas everyone. Let's celebrate peace on Thedas and Goodwill towards men, elves, dwarves and qunari each. 

 

Let's  not argue, spread insults, or be buttheads over wounded pride or whatever else is happening in this thread. 


  • HTTP 404 aime ceci

#267
Colonelkillabee

Colonelkillabee
  • Members
  • 8 467 messages

**** Christmas. All I wanted for Christmas was to wake up with a new family, lol, and needless to say I didn't get it. Bahumbugh.


  • dragonflight288 et LightningPoodle aiment ceci

#268
dragonflight288

dragonflight288
  • Members
  • 8 852 messages

**** Christmas. All I wanted for Christmas was to wake up with a new family, lol, and needless to say I didn't get it. Bahumbugh.

 

lol. I woke up and got wart remover in my stocking. 

 

Well, I told my family I needed some, so.... :lol:


  • TK514, HTTP 404 et Colonelkillabee aiment ceci

#269
myahele

myahele
  • Members
  • 2 728 messages

maybe one of the reasons why they get rid of their spare mages when they're younger is to prevent potential power struggle that may then end up bloody for the clan?

 

The Dalish clan we saw in DAI had 2 apprentice mages and when one was chosen to be the keeper's 1st the other apprentice got angry and left.He sought to prove himself superior by going to a dangerous sacred place,but on the way he used blood magic and got himself killed by demons as a result.



#270
Roamingmachine

Roamingmachine
  • Members
  • 4 509 messages

I swear this was a political forum with that response. lol.  Your opinion is like blaming poor people for being poor.  There are more ways to help the impoverished instead of violence.   You do realize that right?  I also was never talking about the dwarves, tevinter, Andrasitans, etc.

 

Thanks for putting words in my mouth.  Merry Christmas!

Well, you did suggest that the dalish are worse because they wont help the rather pathetic city elves. Now how exactly would they do that without violence, bearing in mind the mutual hatred between them and andrastian humans and conversion to andrastianism being out of the question? The city elves need to grow a spine and do it on their own. The better question is, why should the Dalish give to bits about the city elves? Have they done anything that would justify the Dalish risking their necks for them? The clans take in those city elves who find them, are willing to take up the Dalish life and are not useless oxygen thieves. Those who stay in the cities can either grow a spine (Briala and her elves are a good example of this) or continue to grovel.Their choice.

 

And for the record, i heartily enjoy debates over beer as well. I find that the threat of having a beer glass smashed over the side of your head tends to keep the discussion civil ;)


  • HTTP 404 aime ceci

#271
helpthisguyplease

helpthisguyplease
  • Members
  • 809 messages

Man I keep telling you all that the city elves have a spine look at the Denerim alienage look at that Halmshiral all of them had spine and tried to better their life and all of them were defeated. What did the Dalish did when one of babies where killed they ran.



#272
5ubzer0

5ubzer0
  • Members
  • 107 messages

There is a Connor like example in DA I as well , for those who havent seen the Chateaux D'onterre in the Emerald Grave do not read....................................................

 

Basically it is a haunted mansion now because the lord who ruled that place had a daughter who had magic so he paid some crooked templar to keep it on the hush, like Connor the girl had a magical tutor ( not a blood mage unlike Jowan ) and as you might expect things went to ****, people got killed demons took over until the Inquisitor arrives and clears the place out ( creepiest place in DA I by far ).

 

I bring this up just to solidify the point that child or not magic is dangerous and mages need to be watched for their own good as well as people around them, they are the equivalent of a ticking bomb , it might go off any minute best to watch it or keep your distance.

 

Uhm, have you read the lore entries in that house?

Spoiler
Now if I was tortured by people I trusted and who claimed this is all for my own good, I'd think running amok and killing whoever was responsible is a sad but understandable reaction. I just don't see how you can use this as an example of mages being "ticking bombs." The villains in that story are very clearly the non-mages.


  • Addai, dragonflight288 et LD Little Dragon aiment ceci

#273
herkles

herkles
  • Members
  • 1 902 messages

I am curious what the Dalish could do to move foreward with say founding a new kingdom/country?



#274
dragonflight288

dragonflight288
  • Members
  • 8 852 messages

I am curious what the Dalish could do to move foreward with say founding a new kingdom/country?

 

Well first they'd have to claim a piece of land not used by anyone else. 



#275
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*

Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
  • Guests

I am curious what the Dalish could do to move foreward with say founding a new kingdom/country?

 

Worship Solas.