376 réponses à ce sujet

[herkles]

Worship Solas.

and his consort Lavellan?

[Dean_the_Young]

Today in our show, worried Wycome parents talk about their children's troubling behaviour.

 

"When he was younger, my son dreamt of becoming a Templar, or winning the Grand Tourney. You know, typical child dreams. But since the Dalish started living here, he only listens to that horrible elven music and wears shoes without soles. I mean, what kind of pagan fashion is that? Now he says he wants to put on vallas-whatever tatoos and join the Dalish hunters."

"But isn't he human?"

"I know! I told him so, but he doesn't listen. He says that I'm "oppressing him" and that I don't understand. Worst of all, he says he isn't going to go to the Chantry on Sunday anymore, because he's worshipping the elven gods. You know, I'm not racist, and I welcomed the Dalish when they saved our city from those red lyrium bastards, but this is too much. Somebody, please, think of the children!"

 

This one gets it!

 

Yeah, it was pretty much that. A bit of elven chic, for the ages.

[HTTP 404]

Well, you did suggest that the dalish are worse because they wont help the rather pathetic city elves. Now how exactly would they do that without violence, bearing in mind the mutual hatred between them and andrastian humans and conversion to andrastianism being out of the question? The city elves need to grow a spine and do it on their own. The better question is, why should the Dalish give to bits about the city elves? Have they done anything that would justify the Dalish risking their necks for them? The clans take in those city elves who find them, are willing to take up the Dalish life and are not useless oxygen thieves. Those who stay in the cities can either grow a spine (Briala and her elves are a good example of this) or continue to grovel.Their choice.

 

And for the record, i heartily enjoy debates over beer as well. I find that the threat of having a beer glass smashed over the side of your head tends to keep the discussion civil

 

beer also makes me feel fuzzy and good.  I outright said that the dalish are worse than the city elves and it's also the question of this thread.    There are non violent ways to help a group of people.  Some dalish do take in some city elves which I think is the nicest thing they ever did that I notice in the games.  One big way to support a marginalized group of people is by educating them.  The dalish are far more knowledgeable about their past and also have sets of skills that they could teach the city elves.  Many city elves cannot even read.  Also I dispute the idea of being poor as a "choice" like it is a choice between an apple or orange.  Many factors are in play.

[dragonflight288]

beer also makes me feel fuzzy and good.  I outright said that the dalish are worse than the city elves and it's also the question of this thread.    There are non violent ways to help a group of people.  Some dalish do take in some city elves which I think is the nicest thing they ever did that I notice in the games.  One big way to support a marginalized group of people is by educating them.  The dalish are far more knowledgeable about their past and also have sets of skills that they could teach the city elves.  Many city elves cannot even read.  Also I dispute the idea of being poor as a "choice" like it is a choice between an apple or orange.  Many factors are in play.

 

It's not like the Dalish can just go into a city and start educating the city elves. 

 

Or do you think the Chantry, the city's nobles and officials, not to mention the city-guard and all the humans will just let a clan of Dalish move in and start educating other elves without comment or trying to provoke a fight? 

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

It's not like the Dalish can just go into a city and start educating the city elves. 

 

Or do you think the Chantry, the city's nobles and officials, not to mention the city-guard and all the humans will just let a clan of Dalish move in and start educating other elves without comment or trying to provoke a fight? 

 

Its not like the Dalish would even bother, they'd rather let the "flat ears" die in their alienages than lift a finger to help them. Why bother? City "flat ears" are not real elves.

 

Just one of many reasons my Dalish Inquisitor is converting to Andrastism by the end of the game.

[TheJediSaint]

It's not like the Dalish can just go into a city and start educating the city elves. 

 

Or do you think the Chantry, the city's nobles and officials, not to mention the city-guard and all the humans will just let a clan of Dalish move in and start educating other elves without comment or trying to provoke a fight? 

And expose their hunters to the wiles of hot Chantry sisters?  Don't you know how the Dales fell in the first place?!

[dragonflight288]

Its not like the Dalish would even bother, they'd rather let the "flat ears" die in their alienages than lift a finger to help them. Why bother? City "flat ears" are not real elves.

 

Just one of many reasons my Dalish Inquisitor is converting to Andrastism by the end of the game.

 

Not if they stay true to the three points on what being Dalish actually means.

 

1. Find a land to call their own, where elves rule themselves.

2. Rediscover the ancient secrets of the elven empire.

3. Educate the city-elves who have forgotten. 

 

For the most part, my impression of the Dalish isn't that they hate the city elves but more that they pity them, and will accept any city elf who comes to them, but don't go out of their way to help them in the alienages because they want to avoid trouble with the humans. 

 

This may vary from clan to clan, as we see one clan in Inquisition, the Keeper's clan in Multiplayer actually, freely gives elven lore and knowledge to any who they come in contact with. Lavellan's clan seems to be on good terms with humans, freely working with the Inquisition (if you send Josephine or Leliana to the clan on the first mission and not Cullen, then a misunderstanding occurs with the armed forces coming in.)

[dragonflight288]

And expose their hunters to the wiles of hot Chantry sisters?  Don't you know how the Dales fell in the first place?!

 

Yup. 

 

Stupid Chantry sisters using their wily ways and seductive bodies to turn elven hunters into drooling dogs. 

 

(that was a joke at the expense of both groups, before anyone takes that too seriously because this is the internet.)

[Vit246]

Its not like the Dalish would even bother, they'd rather let the "flat ears" die in their alienages than lift a finger to help them. Why bother? City "flat ears" are not real elves.

 

Just one of many reasons my Dalish Inquisitor is converting to Andrastism by the end of the game.

 

Again with the "lift a finger to help them"

 

Elaborate, in your own words, how you think the Dalish can lift a finger to help the city elves in the alienages.

[TheJediSaint]

Yup. 

 

Stupid Chantry sisters using their wily ways and seductive bodies to turn elven hunters into drooling dogs. 

 

(that was a joke at the expense of both groups, before anyone takes that too seriously because this is the internet.)

The sexy cannot be denied.

[dragonflight288]

Again with the "lift a finger to help them"

 

Elaborate, in your own words, how you think the Dalish can lift a finger to help the city elves in the alienages.

 

Adding on to this. 

 

And include what you think the humans reactions would be considering the city elf codex in Origins makes it clear that the humans commit hate crimes on city elves who start advancing themselves by getting businesses or moving their homes outside of alienages. 

[TK514]

Merethari walked right in and out of the Kirkwall Alienage.  It's not as though we've ever seen a ban on elves traveling into and out of cities, and what human is really going to look close enough to notice the face tats, be knowledgeable enough to recognize them for what they are, or care enough to do anything about a knife-ear going about their menial business?

[TheJediSaint]

Merethari walked right in and out of the Kirkwall Alienage.  It's not as though we've ever seen a ban on elves traveling into and out of cities, and what human is really going to look close enough to notice the face tats, be knowledgeable enough to recognize them for what they are, or care enough to do anything about a knife-ear going about their menial business?

Well, to be fair, this is Kirkwall you're talking about.

[herkles]

Adding on to this. 

 

And include what you think the humans reactions would be considering the city elf codex in Origins makes it clear that the humans commit hate crimes on city elves who start advancing themselves by getting businesses or moving their homes outside of alienages. 

I mean you got this order of noble knights, Cheviliers, who like frat boys get drunk and just kill city elves as a hazing rite basically. Their is a riot when one of the elves in denerim is appointed as bann. Not to mention that nobles can just walk in and abduct elves without worry of reprisal.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

Adding on to this. 

 

And include what you think the humans reactions would be considering the city elf codex in Origins makes it clear that the humans commit hate crimes on city elves who start advancing themselves by getting businesses or moving their homes outside of alienages. 

 

Ah yes, the do nothing argument. It works so well. Which is why I at least respect Briala, at least she is trying to help her fellow city elves rather than doing nothing and out right ignoring what happens to city elves.

 

At least as a Dalish Inquisitor you come from a clan that actively trys to help their fellow elves by staying aware of world events and building connections with humans.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

I mean you got this order of noble knights, Cheviliers, who like frat boys get drunk and just kill city elves as a hazing rite basically. Their is a riot when one of the elves in denerim is appointed as bann. Not to mention that nobles can just walk in and abduct elves without worry of reprisal.

 

And you have some Dalish Clans that are out right bandits which certainly does nothing to help the perception of elves.

[HTTP 404]

It's not like the Dalish can just go into a city and start educating the city elves. 

 

Or do you think the Chantry, the city's nobles and officials, not to mention the city-guard and all the humans will just let a clan of Dalish move in and start educating other elves without comment or trying to provoke a fight? 

 

 

It's a poor urban neighborhood, not a prison. Anyone could get into any city with the mind to get in (bribery, sneaking in, etc).  Also you just mentioned in another post that the Dalish should be educating elves on the old ways.  My friend, you just contradicted yourself.   

 

And I am not saying that a whole clan should move in.  There are individuals in clans no?  They could send individuals on missions to help fellow elves for months at a time.  

 

IRL, we have an organization called Peace Corp.  My father was in it and as an engineer after college, he went to Africa for almost 2 years to build roads for a rural village.  (btw He didn't bring his whole town he grew up in to live in Africa like your argument would imply).  During this time, the white folk were oppressing the blacks in Africa but that didn't prevent him from helping them. 

[Vit246]

 

Ah yes, the do nothing argument. It works so well. Which is why I at least respect Briala, at least she is trying to help her fellow city elves rather than doing nothing and out right ignoring what happens to city elves.

 

At least as a Dalish Inquisitor you come from a clan that actively trys to help their fellow elves by staying aware of world events and building connections with humans.

 

And you have some Dalish Clans that are out right bandits which certainly does nothing to help the perception of elves.

 

You still haven't given actually answered what we asked of you.

 

And the Dalish are not collectively responsible for the few clans that act like bandits. Just as the humans and qunari and dwarves are not responsible for their bandits.

[Addai]

Its not like the Dalish would even bother, they'd rather let the "flat ears" die in their alienages than lift a finger to help them. Why bother? City "flat ears" are not real elves.

 

Just one of many reasons my Dalish Inquisitor is converting to Andrastism by the end of the game.

The Dalish regularly take in city elves that come to them for refuge. Zevran, Pol in the Dalish origin story. The city elf PC in Origins is going to attempt to flee to the Dalish. Zathrian's clan saved Lanaya from sexual servitude to bandits. Alarith, the shopkeeper in the Denerim alienage, was likewise saved from bandits by Dalish elves. Velanna, with her own particular brand of charm, still hands over an elven artifact to two strangers just because they're city elves who don't have access to such things. Marethari attempts to help Feynriel and they take him in if you send him to them. Felassan, a Dalish elf, was Briala's mentor in TME. He met her when she was likewise attempting to flee to the Dalish. There's also Merrill, though her situation is forced on her.

 

For the fact they can't just stroll around cities freely, they aren't completely inured to the city elf plight. Some Dalish do remember that what they're keeping is meant to be a trust for all elves.

[Vit246]

It's a poor urban neighborhood, not a prison. Anyone could get into any city with the mind to get in (bribery, sneaking in, etc).  Also you just mentioned in another post that the Dalish should be educating elves on the old ways.  My friend, you just contradicted yourself.   

 

And I am not saying that a whole clan should move in.  There are individuals in clans no?  They could send individuals on missions to help fellow elves for months at a time.  

 

Well if its not a prison then maybe it would better if the City Elves come to the Dalish instead of the other way around. Much better I think. Because Dalish-influenced City Elves might get ideas in their heads. And inadvertently spread dissent and rebellion right in the alienage. And Human authorities tend to crush the alienages. Especially those uppity knife-ears.

[HTTP 404]

The Dalish regularly take in city elves that come to them for refuge. Zevran, Pol in the Dalish origin story. The city elf PC in Origins is going to attempt to flee to the Dalish. Zathrian's clan saved Lanaya from sexual servitude to bandits. Alarith, the shopkeeper in the Denerim alienage, was likewise saved from bandits by Dalish elves. Velanna, with her own particular brand of charm, still hands over an elven artifact to two strangers just because they're city elves who don't have access to such things. Marethari attempts to help Feynriel and they take him in if you send him to them. Felassan, a Dalish elf, was Briala's mentor in TME. He met her when she was likewise attempting to flee to the Dalish. There's also Merrill, though her situation is forced on her.

 

For the fact they can't just stroll around cities freely, they aren't completely inured to the city elf plight. Some Dalish do remember that what they're keeping is meant to be a trust for all elves.

 

you pretty much hit the crux of what is wrong with this thread.  The question is very generalizing, so our responses are generalizing.  Of course not every dalish is the same and not every city elf is the same.  As well as all the other subgroups that exist in Thedas.  

 

I think it quite the fallacy to come in here to change other viewpoints based on generalizations, no?  

[HTTP 404]

Well if its not a prison then maybe it would better if the City Elves come to the Dalish instead of the other way around. Much better I think. Because Dalish-influenced City Elves might probably spread dissent and rebellion right in their alienage. And Human authorities tend to crush those very harshly. Especially those uppity knife-ears

I think it is good for City Elves to choose to go to the Dalish.  However crappy the homes are of the City Elves, many of them only know the alienage.  I think it is a choice to fight to improve the life you know than to run from it.  I don't think either is wrong or better but to expect everyone to do it one way is closed minded.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

I think it is good for City Elves to choose to go to the Dalish.  However crappy the homes are of the City Elves, many of them only know the alienage.  I think it is a choice to fight to improve the life you know than to run from it.  I don't think either is wrong or better but to expect everyone to do it one way is closed minded.

 

Exactly, some people don't want their lives focused on being a hunter and gather. The Dalish mages study and hunt elven artifacts, most Dalish just focus on clan needs. Hunting, defense, crafting, etc. Thats not a life most city elves would want or could even survive in. Nor will there ever be change if you run away from problems. Yes, there may have been riots when Fereleden made an Elven Bann but its hinted that things improve overtime if the right leaders are picked (based on the warden's choices).

 

And not all elves like the idea of a purely elven nation. To people like Sera, that just means the little people will be trampled on by elven nobles inside of human nobles. In other words, not much of a difference. Its much like Tevinter having mage slaves, just because your a mage doesn't mean you have any power in Tevinter, you might even be a slave. The real power in Tevinter is in the old money families, just like everywhere else.

 

Elves like Sera would prefer a society were people are treated equally, regardless of race. She wouldn't like an elven nation that discriminates against humans (and just calling a nation "Elven" is discriminating in the first place) any more than human nations that exclude elves.

[dragonflight288]

It's a poor urban neighborhood, not a prison. Anyone could get into any city with the mind to get in (bribery, sneaking in, etc).  Also you just mentioned in another post that the Dalish should be educating elves on the old ways.  My friend, you just contradicted yourself.   

 

And I am not saying that a whole clan should move in.  There are individuals in clans no?  They could send individuals on missions to help fellow elves for months at a time.  

 

IRL, we have an organization called Peace Corp.  My father was in it and as an engineer after college, he went to Africa for almost 2 years to build roads for a rural village.  (btw He didn't bring his whole town he grew up in to live in Africa like your argument would imply).  During this time, the white folk were oppressing the blacks in Africa but that didn't prevent him from helping them. 

 

An alienage is a poor neighborhood, not a prison as you said, but as the City Elf Codex points out, if any elf wished to set themselves up outside of one with a business or a home, it isn't long before their home is burned down, their business destroyed and they are driven back into the alienage by racist humans.

 

It also points out that any elf who wishes to leave an alienage is called flat-ear by other city elves and are looked down upon by them as well.  

 

A clan of armed Dalish entering a city to educate the city elves, who have both the means and will to defend themselves simply is not going to go well. 

 

The argument with your father doesn't work because it's a case of skilled workers going to help in areas where not only is the help needed, but it's also appreciated. City Elves hate or misunderstand the Dalish just as much as humans do. And the Dalish can't give up a few people here or there who have the skills to  help city elves when, as a nomadic society with no place to set down roots or to return, are constantly on the move and out in the wilds. The members of their clan who has those skills are needed to support the clan. 

 

In order for the dalish to truly help the city elves, in my opinion, the dalish, or just the elves in general, need a land to call home, a place to settle roots. Where their children can grow up without fear or wondering where the next meal is coming from (for the most part, all societies  have a lower rung.) They need a place where their families can be safe so those with the skills or knowledge can go out without for extended periods of time without wondering if their bonded, their children or their clan would be slaughtered by an angry mob, met some disaster thanks to the weather or an unpleasant pack of sylvans or so on. 

 

If your father was part of Dalish society, and leaving to Africa was something he wanted to do, he would be allowed to go. He just would have a very difficult time getting a hold of the clan again after he was done, and he'd have no way of knowing if those he left behind could take care of themselves or would be safe since. 

 

Now granted, I admire your father for what he did, but circumstances aren't truly the same. 

[dragonflight288]

I think it is good for City Elves to choose to go to the Dalish.  However crappy the homes are of the City Elves, many of them only know the alienage.  I think it is a choice to fight to improve the life you know than to run from it.  I don't think either is wrong or better but to expect everyone to do it one way is closed minded.

 

It would help if they didn't condemn other elves who choose to leave alienages as "no longer elves" per the city elf codex.