376 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Exactly, some people don't want their lives focused on being a hunter and gather. The Dalish mages study and hunt elven artifacts, most Dalish just focus on clan needs. Hunting, defense, crafting, etc. Thats not a life most city elves would want or could even survive in. Nor will there ever be change if you run away from problems. Yes, there may have been riots when Fereleden made an Elven Bann but its hinted that things improve overtime if the right leaders are picked (based on the warden's choices).

 

And not all elves like the idea of a purely elven nation. To people like Sera, that just means the little people will be trampled on by elven nobles inside of human nobles. In other words, not much of a difference. Its much like Tevinter having mage slaves, just because your a mage doesn't mean you have any power in Tevinter, you might even be a slave. The real power in Tevinter is in the old money families, just like everywhere else.

 

Elves like Sera would prefer a society were people are treated equally, regardless of race. She wouldn't like an elven nation that discriminates against humans (and just calling a nation "Elven" is discriminating in the first place) any more than human nations that exclude elves.

 

Of course, Sera just hates elves in general. She'll approve of my dwarf or qunari saying they'll represent dwarfs or qunari or mages, but try to represent elves and she opposes it. And she outright tells the Dalish Inquisitor when she first meets him is, "youre...ugh, an elf. Well, I hope you're not too elfy."

 

She speaks for the little people, but she seems to have a problem with elves despite being one herself. 

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

I'd have a problem with the elves too if that meant acting like the Dalish which is what your implying as a Dalish Inquisitor when you make that comment. When a Dalish says he'll represent elves, hes not talking about the "flat ears that live in the human cities like dogs with their master". Which is exactly how I imagine Sera hears that remark, hence her disapproval.

 

Is Sera jumping the gun with her opinion of your remark? Sure, but its only because of her previous experience with Dalish elves which has been decisively negative.

[Roamingmachine]

beer also makes me feel fuzzy and good.  I outright said that the dalish are worse than the city elves and it's also the question of this thread.    There are non violent ways to help a group of people.  Some dalish do take in some city elves which I think is the nicest thing they ever did that I notice in the games.  One big way to support a marginalized group of people is by educating them.  The dalish are far more knowledgeable about their past and also have sets of skills that they could teach the city elves.  Many city elves cannot even read.  Also I dispute the idea of being poor as a "choice" like it is a choice between an apple or orange.  Many factors are in play.

Education is a bit difficult when anything you would teach is considered heresy by the mook in charge. This might change if Darth Leliana ends up in charge of the chantry though, so it might be a viable alternative in the future.
Now about the "poor" thing...Poverty often isnt a choice, but what you do about is. Do you accept it or do you fight to get out of it? The city elves have rioted many times, but after getting beaten down they've gone right back to self-pity and meek submission. Thats crap. Getting beaten is no reason to stop fighing. If you cant win with one strategy you move on to the next, mix them up, anything just so long as you dont submit. Thats exactly what happened after the murder of the elves of Halamshiral alienage. They got beaten but instead of giving up they changed the battlefield and have been fighting a successful war of assassins against the nobility. Briala and her people are worthy of respect and a model for the rest of the city elves to follow.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

God I hope not. I'd rather not live in a society that needs assassins to bring "peace and equality". I'm sure plenty of elves think the same. I think I'd rather join the Inquisition, they do treat all races fairly.

[dragonflight288]

I'd have a problem with the elves too if that meant acting like the Dalish which is what your implying as a Dalish Inquisitor when you make that comment. When a Dalish says he'll represent elves, hes not talking about the "flat ears that live in the human cities like dogs with their master". Which is exactly how I imagine Sera hears that remark, hence her disapproval.

 

Is Sera jumping the gun with her opinion of your remark? Sure, but its only because of her previous experience with Dalish elves which has been decisively negative.

 

I don't think this is the case, because she dissaproves of every single elf-dialogue there is in game. 

[Master Warder Z_]

I don't think this is the case, because she dissaproves of every single elf-dialogue there is in game.

Sera is about the only elf besides Fenris I could ever tolerate to be around for more then five minutes.

Doesn't hurt that her opinion is the blatant, brutal truth of the matter.

Dead oaths, dead lips, dust from bones scattered to the wind two thousand years ago.

[HTTP 404]

An alienage is a poor neighborhood, not a prison as you said, but as the City Elf Codex points out, if any elf wished to set themselves up outside of one with a business or a home, it isn't long before their home is burned down, their business destroyed and they are driven back into the alienage by racist humans.

 

It also points out that any elf who wishes to leave an alienage is called flat-ear by other city elves and are looked down upon by them as well.  

 

A clan of armed Dalish entering a city to educate the city elves, who have both the means and will to defend themselves simply is not going to go well. 

 

The argument with your father doesn't work because it's a case of skilled workers going to help in areas where not only is the help needed, but it's also appreciated. City Elves hate or misunderstand the Dalish just as much as humans do. And the Dalish can't give up a few people here or there who have the skills to  help city elves when, as a nomadic society with no place to set down roots or to return, are constantly on the move and out in the wilds. The members of their clan who has those skills are needed to support the clan. 

 

In order for the dalish to truly help the city elves, in my opinion, the dalish, or just the elves in general, need a land to call home, a place to settle roots. Where their children can grow up without fear or wondering where the next meal is coming from (for the most part, all societies  have a lower rung.) They need a place where their families can be safe so those with the skills or knowledge can go out without for extended periods of time without wondering if their bonded, their children or their clan would be slaughtered by an angry mob, met some disaster thanks to the weather or an unpleasant pack of sylvans or so on. 

 

If your father was part of Dalish society, and leaving to Africa was something he wanted to do, he would be allowed to go. He just would have a very difficult time getting a hold of the clan again after he was done, and he'd have no way of knowing if those he left behind could take care of themselves or would be safe since. 

 

Now granted, I admire your father for what he did, but circumstances aren't truly the same. 

First of all, thanks for the civil positive response.  

 

There are two things I want to respond to:  My example and establishing Dalish State

 

My example of how to help the city elves was one of non-violence.  Does the example fit exactly? of course not.  There are many ways to implement an intervention to help the city elves that I hope I don't need to explain in detail in the hopes that your imagination and intellect is involved.  The Dalish helping the city elves would never be allowed but it could be done in secret.  Food and other supplies could be smuggled.  A underground dalish healer could set up shop, a dalish hunter could secretly recruit more elves, or just a dalish elf could teach elf kids to read, etc.  I hope you are getting my gist here.  My example of my father was intended to show that helping people doesn't equal using violence to help them.  This was in response to an earlier poster.

 

Now establishing a Dalish State.  At first I thought that would be great for the elves to start their own state.  I could use a real world example of Israel and I won't get into how I feel about that but that is the best example of a real world situation.  My thoughts are along the lines of Briala.  I believe that the elves are better off carving out a name for themselves within the societies they reside in.  The elves should fight to have their own nobles, access to education, and ability to start their own business.  The idea of starting their own country further segregates the races between human and elf.

[Kulyok]

I don't know if I would want to live as an elf in Thedas right now, but if I could, I'd live as a Dalish elf. Poverty, having to work hard for survival, knowing very little about your lost culture - it's tough, but I'd still weather it if I had someone I loved and who loved me, to walk the road together.

 

In a Dalish clan, I would have a chance of getting that. But with city elves, it's much worse: parents find the wives and husbands for the young people, and many girls just have no choice but to marry, and then get into bed with men who do not love them, and who are not loved. And then live their entire lives beside them. I remember how horrified I was after playing DAO's City Elf origin. "A nobleman wants to rape a girl on her wedding night? Forget that, her own father wants her to get raped every night for the rest of her f-ing life! Which is worse? No wonder she ran off to the Wardens gladly."

[Addai]

I'd have a problem with the elves too if that meant acting like the Dalish which is what your implying as a Dalish Inquisitor when you make that comment. When a Dalish says he'll represent elves, hes not talking about the "flat ears that live in the human cities like dogs with their master". Which is exactly how I imagine Sera hears that remark, hence her disapproval.
 
Is Sera jumping the gun with her opinion of your remark? Sure, but its only because of her previous experience with Dalish elves which has been decisively negative.

That's entirely yours and Sera's spin. My Dalish Inquisitor tells Solas within the first half hour of meeting him that she considers him part of her people.
 
And that's really where I can't respect Sera at all. The tiresome generalizations and the self-loathing thing get old really fast.

Education is a bit difficult when anything you would teach is considered heresy by the mook in charge. This might change if Darth Leliana ends up in charge of the chantry though, so it might be a viable alternative in the future.
Now about the "poor" thing...Poverty often isnt a choice, but what you do about is. Do you accept it or do you fight to get out of it? The city elves have rioted many times, but after getting beaten down they've gone right back to self-pity and meek submission. Thats crap. Getting beaten is no reason to stop fighing. If you cant win with one strategy you move on to the next, mix them up, anything just so long as you dont submit. Thats exactly what happened after the murder of the elves of Halamshiral alienage. They got beaten but instead of giving up they changed the battlefield and have been fighting a successful war of assassins against the nobility. Briala and her people are worthy of respect and a model for the rest of the city elves to follow.

I think that's ultimately doomed and will always fall hardest on the people who can least afford chaos- their own children, elderly and weak. I'm not saying I know what the answer is- hopefully something like removing themselves from Thedas entirely until they can gain sufficient force to hold territory- but the elves will never win a war of attrition against entire human Thedas.

[EmissaryofLies]

Of course, Sera just hates elves in general. She'll approve of my dwarf or qunari saying they'll represent dwarfs or qunari or mages, but try to represent elves and she opposes it. And she outright tells the Dalish Inquisitor when she first meets him is, "youre...ugh, an elf. Well, I hope you're not too elfy."

 

She speaks for the little people, but she seems to have a problem with elves despite being one herself. 

 

And of course the only two elf companions in the game do not care for the Dalish. The writer bias is so f*cking hilarious.

[Master Warder Z_]

And of course the only two elf companions in the game do not care for the Dalish. The writer bias is so f*cking hilarious.

It's like not caring for Nazi's or Communists.

Or that xenophobic cult camped out on the back forty.

[EmissaryofLies]

It's like not caring for Nazi's or Communists.

Or that xenophobic cult camped out on the back forty.

 

You're not wrong.

 

And I can't wait to see what they do with Solas in future media!

[Ozzy]

Glad to see Godwin's Law being put to use. That's definitely what this thread was lacking. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Glad to see Godwin's Law being put to use. That's definitely what this thread was lacking.

That's a trope not a law.

I refuse to have that up there with physics, relativity and light refraction.

Also would you prefer Al-Qaeda?

The Kamar rouge?

The NVC?

The Ottomans?

[MissOuJ]

If I have to choose between the two... yeah, the Dalish are way worse than the city elves. Mostly it's just because they get really posturing and high-and-mighty about their "rightful heritage" (which we learn in DAI is mostly wrong anyway) and they look down on the city elves, call them "flat ears" and don't consider them "true elves". (But then again, Sera's gleeful hatred of all things Dalish is not all that well-reasoned either...)

 

But mostly the differenced between the Dalish elves and the city elves are an excellent example of "divide and conquer" in action. The humans (or more to the point: human nobels, their courts and laws) are the true source of misery for all elves. If the Dalish and the city elves actually worked together to fight against the humans, they both would be much better off. Instead the Dalish would rather cling to the remnants of an ancient culture they don't even truly understand and risk their people searching old and dangerous ruins for old trinkets, while other elves and their potential allies are suffering in the alienages.

 

But they aren't "true elves" or "their people", so they don't count.

 

On the other hand... what happened to the elves and their culture is a tragedy, and I totally understand trying to maintain all you possibly can. I really identified with my Dalish Inquisitor (more than I did with my Dalish Warden) and felt for her when she learned about the Vallaslin. So all in all, it's pretty rough for both sides, in the end.

 

TL;DR: Humans are all racist. It's their fault (mostly).

[herkles]

so warden_z the dalish should be wiped out?

[EmissaryofLies]

If I have to choose between the two... yeah, the Dalish are way worse than the city elves. Mostly it's just because they get really posturing and high-and-mighty about their "rightful heritage" (which we learn in DAI is mostly wrong anyway) and they look down on the city elves, call them "flat ears" and don't consider them "true elves". (But then again, Sera's gleeful hatred of all things Dalish is not all that well-reasoned either...)

 

But mostly the differenced between the Dalish elves and the city elves are an excellent example of "divide and conquer" in action. The humans (or more to the point: human nobels, their courts and laws) are the true source of misery for all elves. If the Dalish and the city elves actually worked together to fight against the humans, they both would be much better off. Instead the Dalish would rather cling to the remnants of an ancient culture they don't even truly understand and risk their people searching old and dangerous ruins for old trinkets, while other elves and their potential allies are suffering in the alienages.

 

But they aren't "true elves" or "their people", so they don't count.

 

Dalish and City Elves working together could be a positive, so it will inevitably end very very badly for both parties if Bio decides to write such a story.

[EmissaryofLies]

so warden_z the dalish should be wiped out?

 

Won't speak for him.

 

But it would be a mercy killing at this point. Not to say that I endorse such actions.

[MissOuJ]

Dalish and City Elves working together could be a positive, so it will inevitably end very very badly for both parties if Bio decides to write such a story.

 

Truer words have never been spoken.

[TheJediSaint]

The productivity of any discussion thread involving elves is inversely proportional to its length.

[Ozzy]

Yes, enacting genocide would certainly constitute a "mercy killing."

 

Who are we comparing to the Nazis again? 

[Master Warder Z_]

Won't speak for him.

But it would be a mercy killing at this point. Not to say that I endorse such actions.

I'd like to salvage what I could and destroy the rest.

[Milan92]

Glad to see Godwin's Law being put to use. That's definitely what this thread was lacking. 

 

I think we need some sort of Godwin's law for Elven and Mage/Templar topics.

 

Since its pretty much impossible to stay on-topic for a long period without it turning into an elven or mage/templar debate.

[TheJediSaint]

I'd like to salvage what I could and destroy the rest.

Reduce, reuse, recycle.