376 réponses à ce sujet

[AtreiyaN7]

The Dalish are embittered and misinformed about their own history, Given what was revealed at the Well of Sorrows, they've gotten just about everything wrong. That being said, if you reveal the truth about Red Crossing after finding the scroll in the Tomb of the Emerald Knights, they do seem to try to make up for what happened.

 

I think the Dalish stand a better chance of restoring some semblance of their people's former glory if they learn from their ancestors' mistakes (which entirely relies upon them getting the truth from Abelas and whoever else survives the Temple of Mythal). I don't really see city elves saving anyone when they're oppressed and ineffectual for the most part.

 

Maybe the city elves could successfully organize and agitate for elven rights and integration into human society, but that's a bit different from trying to restore lost culture and history, and forming a new nation.

[helpthisguyplease]

That isn't the point. I'm not saying you have to like it, but I just find it odd that lots of Dalish or mage fans are quick to dismiss things that are to them negative developments for them, just because they don't like it. That is silly. It happened, it's in the lore. That's that. You can't just dismiss everything you don't like because it can be used against you in an argument.

 

Perhaps that's a sign that you may not be right. Is sending people away right? No, but what is necessary isn't always right by morality's standards.

I do not get the argument I think its a bad thing that the Dalish do that it proves what I think and that is that they are weak and full of fear. I agree it exist we have to accept it but in my opinion this makes it black stain on their way of life and one of the reasons they will not be the ones who will restore the elves to freedom to living as equals of humans where there traditions and religion are respected. They give up one of their most powerful assets because as much as a danger a mage is he could also be a asset. Ask the Qunari they lost because the mages packed a punch that made up for the technological difference.

Also many clans need a backbone.

[Colonelkillabee]

I do not get the argument I think its a bad thing that the Dalish do that it proves what I think and that is that they are weak and full of fear. I agree it exist we have to accept it but in my opinion this makes it black stain on their way of life and one of the reasons they will not be the ones who will restore the elves to freedom to living as equals of humans where there traditions and religion are respected. They give up one of their most powerful assets because as much as a danger a mage is he could also be a asset. Ask the Qunari they lost because the mages packed a punch that made up for the technological difference.

Also many clans need a backbone.

 

Yea this much is fine. You can hate it all you want, and disagree with me in it being something necessary. That's fine. But when I get annoyed is when people try to disregard it as pandering to the pro circle people or what have you. Even if this was set up to give them more credibility, so what? It's lore now and that means the credibility is valid, regardless of the Developer's reasoning. They decided that no one has come up with a good ideal solution, and that's that.

 

So I have no problem with you thinking it's a stain on the Dalish. I think anyone else that dislikes this new development simply need to keep their blame where it belongs.

 

The Dalish. Who I've been saying sucked anyway.

[Colonelkillabee]

Also, I think people should be glad that things aren't as simple as South Thedas religious kooks evil and bad, elves enlightened and good. BORING. That actually makes the Dalish elves more interesting to me.

[helpthisguyplease]

 I wonder city elves are in a higher number since there seems to be elves in all settlements and big cities have alienages. And it seems that most of the nobles household staff is made by elves. But they keep losing revolts after revolts after revolts. Do they have the numbers but they lack the training the weapons and the leadership well they lacked depending on your choice in DAI. So I wonder  in the only place where elves can rise above their station and that is Tevinter could they have formed a powerful resistance financed by elves who are in a higher standing and better financially.

 Imagine the city elves who have a backbone and numbers with the training and mages the Dalish have now that is a force that can create a nation, to bad the ones who want do not have the assets and the ones who have them do not use them and do not want to.

[Addai]

Also, Solas' comment was a "duh" moment. Blood magic isn't just something to avoid because of power, but because it involves trafficking with demons, which is risky to the mage in the way of possession. That is why it is really outlawed, not just the power it gives.

You don't have to traffic in demons to learn blood magic, that's more superstition. In Origins the Tower mages are learning it from books, and in the blood mage confrontation with Irving and Wynne (cut because it breaks the game) you can say that the Grey Wardens also have such books. Spirits are a source of knowledge and power- as even the templars exploit. They're not the only source.
 

That isn't the point. I'm not saying you have to like it, but I just find it odd that lots of Dalish or mage fans are quick to dismiss things that are to them negative developments for them, just because they don't like it. That is silly. It happened, it's in the lore. That's that. You can't just dismiss everything you don't like because it can be used against you in an argument.
 
Perhaps that's a sign that you may not be right. Is sending people away right? No, but what is necessary isn't always right by morality's standards.

I like lore developments that are logical and consistent. This isn't. Not at all because I want the Dalish to be paladins, you should know better than that.

One thing that people also forget or discount is that you don't need templars to counter bad magic. Templars are just half-mages who have to use back doors to draw power from the Fade. I played an Andrastian elf mage in Origins who specialized in spell negating magic. Yeah it's annoying to fight templars as a mage, but I still have never encountered a templar who can cast Mana Clash.

[Colonelkillabee]

You don't have to traffic in demons to learn blood magic, that's more superstition. In Origins the mages are learning it from books, and in the blood mage confrontation with Irving and Wynne (cut because it breaks the game) you can say that the Grey Wardens also have such books. Spirits are a source of knowledge and power- as even the templars exploit. They're not the only source.
 
I like lore developments that are logical and consistent. This isn't. Not at all because I want the Dalish to be paladins, you should know better than that.

One thing that people also forget or discount is that you don't need templars to counter bad magic. Templars are just half-mages who have to use back doors to draw power from the Fade, that's all. I played an Andrastian elf mage in Origins who specialized in spell negating magic. Yeah it's annoying to fight templars as a mage, but I still have never encountered a templar who can cast Mana Clash.

The majority of them learn it from demons, which is the problem. Then when they learn it from books, it usually involves things like sacrifice to summon demons... It more times than not goes back to demons... demons or murder to power your spells... and the mere power rush could open them up to demons as blood mages, especially Pride. So semantics it either way, but it's still not just mere superstition. That's the excuse people use to wield the power. Then when they get desperate enough, they do what the wardens did, or the circle mages, or whoever.

 

As for the last part, Templars are valuable because they can negate magic with magical powers without attracting demons. They can still be possessed but they aren't demon magnets. So we still need the templars, especially when a mage isn't always trustworthy when talking about countering fellow mages.

 

This is a new fandom, with you favoring new characters, so I don't necessarily know where you stand or what your motivations are. However, I was speaking of the dalish and mage fans in general even though your comment did prompt mine. It is hard to come up with a different conclusion though when you say it's not logical and dismiss it, when others clearly disagree. It's logical to me. You can't call it inconsistent either, when we don't know everything about every last dalish clan.

 

Even if you don't want them to be white knights, which I know you don't since I remember your response to their not helping the Orlesians, it's still not a leap to think people have their biases. Everyone does.

[Addai]

The majority of them learn it from demons, which is the problem. Then when they learn it from books, it usually involves things like sacrifice to summon demons... It more times than not goes back to demons... demons or murder to power your spells... and the mere power rush could open them up to demons as blood mages, especially Pride. So semantics it either way, but it's still not just mere superstition. That's the excuse people use to wield the power. Then when they get desperate enough, they do what the wardens did, or the circle mages, or whoever.
 
As for the last part, Templars are valuable because they can negate magic with magical powers without attracting demons. They can still be possessed but they aren't demon magnets. So we still need the templars, especially when a mage isn't always trustworthy when talking about countering fellow mages.

All of that rests on Andrastian superstition. Mess with the Fade as the templars do and you do attract demons. That fact is masked by the presence of mages around them, and the mages get blamed for the demons when it's the templar system all along that contributes just as much.
 

This is a new fandom, with you favoring new characters, so I don't necessarily know where you stand or what your motivations are. However, I was speaking of the dalish and mage fans in general even though your comment did prompt mine. It is hard to come up with a different conclusion though when you say it's not logical and dismiss it, when others clearly disagree. It's logical to me. You can't call it inconsistent either, when we don't know everything about every last dalish clan.
 
Even if you don't want them to be white knights, which I know you don't since I remember your response to their not helping the Orlesians, it's still not a leap to think people have their biases. Everyone does.

Fair enough. I'll say it then- I don't need or want the elves to wear white hats. I said I'm not willing to accept this as a rational development, meaning I don't consider it logically justifiable. However after hearing Iron Bull's Dalish merc repeat the same story, I do accept that this is what the writers intend. So my conclusion is that the Dalish have fallen very low and a lot of the clans are basically city elves with tats.

[myahele]

Given what we know yes. Dalish are "worse" than city elves. And humans are worse to city elves

[Colonelkillabee]

All of that rests on Andrastian superstition. Mess with the Fade as the templars do and you do attract demons. That fact is masked by the presence of mages around them, and the mages get blamed for the demons when it's the templar system all along that contributes just as much.
 
Fair enough. I'll say it then- I don't need or want the elves to wear white hats. I said I'm not willing to accept this as a rational development, meaning I don't consider it logically justifiable. However after hearing Iron Bull's Dalish merc repeat the same story, I do accept that this is what the writers intend. So my conclusion is that the Dalish have fallen very low and a lot of the clans are basically city elves with tats.

As the templars do? Mages have done the same plenty on their own and proved that messing with spirits is very messy business. And it makes sense that it is, you're tinkering with something so volatile that it can shift in purpose merely by your perception, someone elses perception, or its own. The arrogance that anyone can do this without worry, that's what has caused the deaths of so many already. Arrogance. That's one thing that Maker or no, the chantry had right from the start. Messing with things you don't understand was the Warden's folly as well, which Solas was clearly upset with as well. Not for the blood magic specifically, but the point is the same with the gods being great spirits basically.

 

The chantry take all their black hat throwing on mages to an extreme, certainly, but like all things, truth lies somewhere near the middle.

 

Anyway, yea that was my only issue. The Dalish, like anyone are certainly not immune to being illogical in their thinking. Logic contrary to popular belief is subjective so this is no different than any of our other disagreements. One can see logic where others don't. It just looked to me like the other instances where people would ignore something that made their opinions of the Dalish lower due to how hostile the anti dalish crowd is at times. And really, I couldn't blame you for that if that was the case. But it isn't, so

 

As long as people keep the blame where it belongs, I don't think so many of these discussions would get very heated on these boards. That goes for the Fiona talks as well. She's a leader figure though so that might almost be inevitable.

[Roamingmachine]

Am I the only one who prefers the Dalish as they are, tough as nails nomads, and even wants them to go further and basically become elven Avvar? Go were the 'civilized' are too weak to follow and keep to their way of life against all enemies. 'Less wise and more dangerous' is the way to go As for the city elves....Ehh, weak-kneed city folk. Before Briala came along I would have said they were completely hopeless. But it seems they too have some steel in them.

Yes, I completely ignored the OP and most of the thread. Boring flamebait is boring. Have a Sera:

[LobselVith8]

Actually, neither clan took either of those people in with no question. Aneirin didn't live with the clan, and Feynriel was a favor repaid who also had an all but mythical type of magic.

Aneirin later left the clan (because he wanted to be among nature, but he still follows the clan, and the Dalish seems to respect him), but he says he was welcomed and taught the ancient magic when he told them he wanted to stay, after they saved his life.

As for Feynriel, Marethari never says she permitted him to stay as a favor.

For a clue about how Dalish really feel regarding mages and them being dangerous, you have to look no further than Merethari's advice regarding Feynriel when he was in trouble. She didn't hesitate for a moment to suggest Hawke get in there and make him Tranquil.

That's the perspective of one single person. As Solas points out, the clans are varied and different due to their divergence from one another after the fall of the Dales.

[Br3admax]

Yes, OP. 

[Colonelkillabee]

Am I the only one who prefers the Dalish as they are, tough as nails nomads, and even wants them to go further and basically become elven Avvar? Go were the 'civilized' are too weak to follow and keep to their way of life against all enemies. 'Less wise and more dangerous' is the way to go As for the city elves....Ehh, weak-kneed city folk. Before Briala came along I would have said they were completely hopeless. But it seems they too have some steel in them.

Yes, I completely ignored the OP and most of the thread. Boring flamebait is boring. Have a Sera:

 

 

You I like, lol.

 

And I agree, these recent developments have made me like the Dalish more, actually.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ensuring that mages are even more afraid for their existence is a solution to this how...?

 

To be wary of real danger is preferable to ignoring the danger in the first place.

 

Whether a mage is 'even more afraid' or not is on them, and irrelevant to whether danger exists regardless. In this case, Solas's advice of 'if you are wary, your fears will be more easily vindicated' does not eclipse that there are things in the Fade to be wary of. Not being wary does not, in fact, protect you.

 

As Solas says, make blood magic criminal and you ensure that only criminals use it. Make magic in general criminal for most people, with a penalty arguably worse than just taking a dagger to the child's throat, and you get a whole host of problems that you wouldn't have if you acted more sanely and responsibly.

 

Solas also refrains from ever laying out what he would consider an acceptable system. He's quite fun of criticizing the proposals or creations of others, but a good deal less forthcoming about viable alternatives that could be likewise scrutinized.

 

Of course, your hyperbole also goes beyond what actually exists in Thedas, so I'm not sure what relevance you think something as unfounded as a general criminalization of magic means.

 

For a magic-inclined race, particularly the reactionary wing who want to return to Arlathan, to embrace that mentality is sign of dysfunction. The idea that the Dalish should be led by mages but only a certain kind and the rest have to be banished is just stupid and I won't accept it as a rational development. It's sign of how far they are from themselves. At least it brings the city elves and them together, I guess.

 

 

Considering the days of slavery to god-kings from a time when the Veil did not exist, your 'dysfunction' is rather rational in its development.

 

As for what they are supposed to be, so that they could be far from it... slaves to god-kings? Supplicants of the powers that likely created the power in the golden city? Feuding factions in a gods war so terrible that one of the pantheon remade the very laws of reality to save them from themselves?

 

I'm sure you have something better in your mind, but I'm puzzled what any rational elf in Thedas is supposed to believe it to be.

[Dean_the_Young]

Yeah, exactly? I mean, Lob said "Lavellan can say that mages are permitted into clans who need them". Where are the clans without mages going to find the mages they need? As I said, Merrill proves that the practice exists, so the Dalish Inquisitor is telling the truth.

 

It's hardly mutually exclusive. Invert your question a little: how would excess mages find the clans that need them?

 

The nature of the Dalish diaspora answers both. Clans arrange it, as best they can, amongst the neighbors they can contact. Othertimes they might wait until the big Dalish get-togethers, in which the clans meet and dicker and barter as they might.

 

But if they can't contact other clans, or can't make the trade, or can't be bothered, they don't. A clan can last without mages until it's next opportunity. A mage who can't find a clan to accept them, won't. People die, and life goes on.

 

 

 

 

Of course. Remember that there's this Dragon Age "tradition" of being able to cause a whole clan's death depending on your choices. As far as I know, the clan in the Exalted Plains is unkillable, so the Lavellan got the short end of the stick.

[Mistic]

Considering the days of slavery to god-kings from a time when the Veil did not exist, your 'dysfunction' is rather rational in its development.

 

As for what they are supposed to be, so that they could be far from it... slaves to god-kings? Supplicants of the powers that likely created the power in the golden city? Feuding factions in a gods war so terrible that one of the pantheon remade the very laws of reality to save them from themselves?

 

I'm sure you have something better in your mind, but I'm puzzled what any rational elf in Thedas is supposed to believe it to be.

 

Given that said god considers current Thedas so horrible that recreating that lost world of god-kings is preferable to the actual state of things is telling too Nevertheless, I agree that Elftopias tend to forget these "little" details. Arlathan? All hail the slaver society of the God-Emperor of Mank... er... God-Kings of Elvenkind. The Dales? Ok, mages are priests rather than kings, no reports of slavery... but such xenophobia than a stupid Romeo&Juliet misunderstanding provokes a war that ends up destroying them.

 

There are better role models out there.

 

It's hardly mutually exclusive. Invert your question a little: how would excess mages find the clans that need them?

 

The nature of the Dalish diaspora answers both. Clans arrange it, as best they can, amongst the neighbors they can contact. Othertimes they might wait until the big Dalish get-togethers, in which the clans meet and dicker and barter as they might.

 

But if they can't contact other clans, or can't make the trade, or can't be bothered, they don't. A clan can last without mages until it's next opportunity. A mage who can't find a clan to accept them, won't. People die, and life goes on.

 

Mm, yeah? I mean, I never said they were mutually exclusive Fortunate mages and clans will fulfill their needs. Less fortunate ones won't, and some will die. I also pointed out before that isolationist clans will be more likely to send their excess mage children to die because of their tendencies.

[LobselVith8]

Am I the only one who prefers the Dalish as they are, tough as nails nomads, and even wants them to go further and basically become elven Avvar? Go were the 'civilized' are too weak to follow and keep to their way of life against all enemies. 'Less wise and more dangerous' is the way to go As for the city elves....Ehh, weak-kneed city folk. Before Briala came along I would have said they were completely hopeless. But it seems they too have some steel in them.

Yes, I completely ignored the OP and most of the thread. Boring flamebait is boring. Have a Sera:

Some Dalish clans are said to "disappear" into the forests, far from known civilization. Perhaps some do this already - the Dalish can go well outside the terrain of the Andrastian kingdoms, where they can be truly free.

Given how the Inquisition can help one Avvar tribe relocate to Tevinter territory, it could be possible for the Inquisitor to help other clans accomplish the same.

[Mistic]

Some Dalish clans are said to "disappear" into the forests, far from known civilization. Perhaps some do this already - the Dalish can go well outside the terrain of the Andrastian kingdoms, where they can be truly free.

Given how the Inquisition can help one Avvar tribe relocate to Tevinter territory, it could be possible for the Inquisitor to help other clans accomplish the same.

 

The disappearance into the forests might be less positive. The Brecilian forest, the Arbor Wilds, etc. have proven to be deadly. So far, we know that the Warden is exploring the lands outside Thedas, and it might be dangerous. Why risking the unknown when no one can assure that the other lands will be better for elves? Better the devil you know...

 

Also, the Inquisitor has probably their hands full with protecting their own clan. Let's not forget the Lavellan Third Way: neither founding an elf-only kingdom nor surrendering to Andrastian or Qunari rule, but joining Thedosian society as part of a diverse rulership (although let's be honest, it would be a minefield, so Wycome is enough of an experiment for now).

[Aimi]

Am I the only one who prefers the Dalish as they are, tough as nails nomads, and even wants them to go further and basically become elven Avvar? Go were the 'civilized' are too weak to follow and keep to their way of life against all enemies. 'Less wise and more dangerous' is the way to go

I certainly don't prefer the Dalish that way, because nomadic societies don't work that way and it destroys my immersion to have the Dalish be nomads totally independent of and antagonistic to sedentary society.

YMMV.

[ZerioctheTank]

Yes

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah, exactly? I mean, Lob said "Lavellan can say that mages are permitted into clans who need them". Where are the clans without mages going to find the mages they need? As I said, Merrill proves that the practice exists, so the Dalish Inquisitor is telling the truth.

In that instance.

But just because a practice exists doesn't make it common occurrence nor does it make it the norm.

What I find amusing though?

Even circle magi know of it.

It makes me wonder just how common and wide spread the alternative is when humans know of it off the top of their head.

[Dean_the_Young]

There are better role models out there.

 

In Thedas? Not so sure- there's a long history of people kicking down on others, with varying degrees of success, but few role models without so much kicking at all.

 

Sadly, there's no equivalent to the political enlightenment around.
 

 

Mm, yeah? I mean, I never said they were mutually exclusive Fortunate mages and clans will fulfill their needs. Less fortunate ones won't, and some will die. I also pointed out before that isolationist clans will be more likely to send their excess mage children to die because of their tendencies.

 

 

With your clarification, it appears I misunderstood your post. Cheers.

[Aimi]

Sadly, there's no equivalent to the political enlightenment around.

Small point on definitions: the political version of the Enlightenment was actually - in most ways - about the strong screwing the weak, because of the general acceptance of the "balance of power" paradigm in international politics and its corollary in domestic politics, enlightened despotism. Governments did not become meaningfully more benign to either their citizenry or to their foreign neighbors until after the Napoleonic Wars. Paul Schroeder traced this development in considerable detail twenty years ago, and in most cases it has been modified only slightly since then: the basic argument is quite sound.

The European Enlightenment was more about trying to modify the existing paradigm in slightly more acceptable ways without trying to solve the fundamental problems that it threw up. So (for example) you'd get Italian writers throwing around ideas about reducing the use of the death penalty and rationalizing criminal justice, but they'd rarely go so far as to suggest a genuinely egalitarian system. Similarly, in international relations, there were a few efforts to reform the balance of power system, and some people (like Emperor Leopold II, Count Vergennes, Immanuel Kant, Philipp Cobenzl, and Anton Wenzel von Kaunitz) saw how destructive it was, but nobody could figure out how to make a better system, or who would pay for it, until 1814.

[Mistic]

In that instance.

But just because a practice exists doesn't make it common occurrence nor does it make it the norm.

What I find amusing though?

Even circle magi know of it.

It makes me wonder just how common and wide spread the alternative is when humans know of it off the top of their head.

 

I'm reposting something I wrote in another thread regarding Vivienne's words:

 

"That has an easy answer: because of the Dalish isolationism, it's easier for her to know about individuals who left the Dalish. In this case, individuals abandoned by their clans. That's not a very representative example, isn't it? It's a classic example of the Biased Sample Fallacy:

 

Pastor Pete: People are turning to God everywhere!  9 out of 10 people I interviewed said that they had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Fred: Where did you find these people you interviewed?

Pastor Pete: In my church.

 

Of course, it doesn't mean that the people pastor Pete interviewed didn't have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ or that the mages Vivienne know of weren't abandoned by their clans. But making a hasty generalization from a biased sample is a common logical fallacy.

 

For now. As always, new data in the future might require new hypothesis."

 

I mean, just at the beginning of the game we have an example of that: unless you're a Dalish Inquisitor, the protagonist's first likely contact with a Dalish mage is a Circle apprentice who was abandoned by her clan. Then the Bull's Chargers Dalish, similar case although with less implied "doom to die" perspectives. What a pool of examples! Yet you may go with that story to the Warden or Hawke (who have first hand experience with Dalish) and find them surprised because it's the first time they hear about it.

 

In Thedas? Not so sure- there's a long history of people kicking down on others, with varying degrees of success, but few role models without so much kicking at all.

 

Mm, true. Well, I still find Ferelden preferable to Tevinter, Orlais or Arlathan, so that's something. And you can always try to find something new. Like what happens in Wycome.