376 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

To be wary of real danger is preferable to ignoring the danger in the first place.
 
Whether a mage is 'even more afraid' or not is on them, and irrelevant to whether danger exists regardless. In this case, Solas's advice of 'if you are wary, your fears will be more easily vindicated' does not eclipse that there are things in the Fade to be wary of. Not being wary does not, in fact, protect you.

When you're using abandonment of mage children as an excuse for "protecting the clan," then it is in fact "on" the people doing so to justify it. For one, they're children so you can hardly say they're responsible. For another, it's nonsensical. For still another, it's human (elven) nature to protect yourself and your children. Viv likes to talk about primal fears, well this is one, and if you're so worried about mages turning abomination then to create an air of suspicion and blame around magic is just to intensify the problem you're trying to solve.
 

Solas also refrains from ever laying out what he would consider an acceptable system. He's quite fun of criticizing the proposals or creations of others, but a good deal less forthcoming about viable alternatives that could be likewise scrutinized.

I'm quite sure he has a plan for making Thedas better, but we won't find that out til DLC or the next game.
 

Of course, your hyperbole also goes beyond what actually exists in Thedas, so I'm not sure what relevance you think something as unfounded as a general criminalization of magic means.

Criminals get locked up. Mages get locked up, and they have even fewer rights than criminals. They can be executed on the spot by any templar who says he saw them using blood magic. We saw this even back in Origins.
 

Considering the days of slavery to god-kings from a time when the Veil did not exist, your 'dysfunction' is rather rational in its development.
 
As for what they are supposed to be, so that they could be far from it... slaves to god-kings? Supplicants of the powers that likely created the power in the golden city? Feuding factions in a gods war so terrible that one of the pantheon remade the very laws of reality to save them from themselves?
 
I'm sure you have something better in your mind, but I'm puzzled what any rational elf in Thedas is supposed to believe it to be.

I don't understand your point. I'm not saying the ancient elves were paladins, either. I'm saying the Dalish want to emulate them but they're acting like Chantry mice, peeing their armor at the thought of mages being around.

[Colonelkillabee]

No offense to Nicholas Cage, but I don't want any part in his plan for making Thedas 'better'. By his standards anyway.

 

Though he does have us strengthening the veil everywhere we go...

 

But he screws up everything.

[LobselVith8]

The disappearance into the forests might be less positive. The Brecilian forest, the Arbor Wilds, etc. have proven to be deadly. So far, we know that the Warden is exploring the lands outside Thedas, and it might be dangerous. Why risking the unknown when no one can assure that the other lands will be better for elves? Better the devil you know...

 

The regions are dangerous, but the use of the word 'disappearance' seems intentional, likely emphasizing that the Dalish disappear into the forests, venturing further and further away from human society to try to carve out a life for themselves free from the dangers of Andrastian forces. I'm certain some fail in the endeavor, while others succeed.

 

Also, the Inquisitor has probably their hands full with protecting their own clan. Let's not forget the Lavellan Third Way: neither founding an elf-only kingdom nor surrendering to Andrastian or Qunari rule, but joining Thedosian society as part of a diverse rulership (although let's be honest, it would be a minefield, so Wycome is enough of an experiment for now).

 

Which is basically Skyhold under Dalish rule, where an elven Inquisitor governs a diverse makeup of Andrastian humans and Dalish elves.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Which is basically Skyhold under Dalish rule, where an elven Inquisitor governs a diverse makeup of Andrastian humans and Dalish elves.

What about the Andrastian Elves? 

[Eveangaline]

Going as far back as Origins, there was only ever two mages in a clan. Merrill confirmed that she was alienated from the rest of her clan because she was the First. I'm just saying, "Dalish being dicks to their mages" isn't a new development or propaganda to make the Templars look better.

 

Didn't lanaya say she had a lot of competition to be the first to the keeper? Since only mages can do that it implies there's plenty of mages in her clan.

[Colonelkillabee]

Forcing all elves to be Dalish, eh? What about the Andrastrian Elves? 

**** 'em.

[Nightdragon8]

Yeah and later you learned what was their fate. The strange part is I asked a question some time ago about why mages are allowed in mercenary and assassin organizations and the most common answer was because the templars do not wanna risk their lives taking a whole organisations for a few mages. Does this not apply to the Dalish I mean do their really think templars are gonna attack a entire clan of hundreds of trained hunters?

Hundreds?? Maybe a 100 max I suspect much less. So why wouldn't they attack them? And if they are being a "problem" they would get the local lord to supply some troops to help. So why wouldn't Templars attack them?

 

For mercs, and assassins,
Mercs - they would be able to move out of the templars jursitiction too quickly, not to mention the people who have the money to hire a bunch of mercs probably has a decent enough poltical pull to make Templar life annoying.

 

Assassins - Would a Templar leader really risk his own life over a few mages? Because the chances of death due to posiniong start to rise alot, vs dieing to a magic blast.

[helpthisguyplease]

Hundreds?? Maybe a 100 max I suspect much less. So why wouldn't they attack them? And if they are being a "problem" they would get the local lord to supply some troops to help. So why wouldn't Templars attack them?

 

For mercs, and assassins,
Mercs - they would be able to move out of the templars jursitiction too quickly, not to mention the people who have the money to hire a bunch of mercs probably has a decent enough poltical pull to make Templar life annoying.

 

Assassins - Would a Templar leader really risk his own life over a few mages? Because the chances of death due to posiniong start to rise alot, vs dieing to a magic blast.

Because there at least 50 well trained hunters that will make your troops full of arrows what kind of lord will risk his life for something like that. They are perfect for guerilla attacks, in the invasion on Britain the only reason the romans did not took the place that is now Scotland was because the tribes there inflicted to many casualties to the Romans. The cost was way more then the benefits. The same here lords will understand that is not worth having you troops killed for some templars.

[Nightdragon8]

I think you misunderstood.... I said they could not would. The Risk/Reward isn't worth it, getting troops into the forest suppling them over a what 2 or maybe a handful not worth the peoples lives.

 

They could get the local lords to help attack them. However the most that most lords would do is rasie an army, ask the Dalish to leave or die. Yes a small group can kill alot of people, but they can not kill an army. And the risk of them all being killed isn't worth it.

 

As for Scotland, honestly it wasn't worth the trouble, there was nothing there that Rome needed. And at the time Rome was starting to die on the inside as well. So holding off an Empire that was slowly dieing and losing intrest in war.

[helpthisguyplease]

If ferelden is to be taken as a example most lords have no more then a few soldiers, while the strongest can have a few hundreds but most do not have that much. In real life most feudal lords had few soldiers.

[RenAdaar]

The idea that the Dalish send their mages away because they don't have templars is just... nonsense. It seems we have to accept it since it's repeated by several NPCs but it makes no sense and just seems like pandering to the pro-Circle crowd. If true, then yes, that lowers my opinion of the Dalish in general.

Do they actually explain why they do this in game? I assumed they sent them away because they didn't want the templars to target them for having to many mages.  

[Addai]

Do they actually explain why they do this in game? I assumed they sent them away because they didn't want the templars to target them for having to many mages.  

The implication is, and IB states it as such, that they do it because they don't have templars themselves. If they're that worried about templars, I'd think they wouldn't have mages leading clans to begin with. The whole thing is just kind of illogical.

[Dean_the_Young]

When you're using abandonment of mage children as an excuse for "protecting the clan," then it is in fact "on" the people doing so to justify it. For one, they're children so you can hardly say they're responsible. For another, it's nonsensical. For still another, it's human (elven) nature to protect yourself and your children. Viv likes to talk about primal fears, well this is one, and if you're so worried about mages turning abomination then to create an air of suspicion and blame around magic is just to intensify the problem you're trying to solve.

 

This is a change of discussion now from Solas's description of the fade, you realize, but very well.

 

The fact that children are hardly responsible is true. It's also very, very relevant, since a mage-child's ability to be mature and responsible isn't even remotely linked to their ability to even inadvertently cause huge swarths of destruction accidentally. Mere paranoia and fear of the fade isn't even required- cue the Redcliffe example, in which a major settlement was nearly (or even was) annihalated by a boy who, rather than mad from fear of magic and the fade, simply listened to the nice lady's voice for help. Connor is the epitome of what a well-intentioned, and ignorant, mage-child can be.

 

That he could hardly be expected to be responsible for it is quite different than what he did, in fact, do. Everyone else, however, is responsible for how they will be responsible for what irresponsible children (or adults) might do, even accidentally.

 

That is the reality of Thedas and the dangers of magic. Pretending otherwise, in the name of avoiding or reducing fear, does not prevent damaging and fear-inspiring incidents, especially those born of a lack of wary caution.

 

In Thedas, mages must manage fear and wariness. No one, not even Solas, is immune to that.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm quite sure he has a plan for making Thedas better, but we won't find that out til DLC or the next game.

 

Why wait, though? Why not offer constructive proposals, rather than criticism, of all that he sees? This is just banking on faith that has never even approached being vindicated.

 

Solas is not a people person, except if those people are spirits. He's not a community organizer, or a social planner, or even someone who's demonstrated any particular ability to make sustainable (if imperfect) institutions.

 

 

 

Criminals get locked up. Mages get locked up, and they have even fewer rights than criminals. They can be executed on the spot by any templar who says he saw them using blood magic. We saw this even back in Origins.

 

Lots of people get locked up, for various reasons, and mages have different rights than criminals. A much better analogy and comparison for the Circles is the various quarantine colonies that have existed across history. People who, through no moral fault of their own, none the less hold active or potential ability to do significant harm without any deliberate intent.

 

What we saw in Origins was hardly 'executed on the spot' by virtue of hear-say. We did have an actual blood-mage escape attempt, if you recall.

 

 

I don't understand your point. I'm not saying the ancient elves were paladins, either. I'm saying the Dalish want to emulate them but they're acting like Chantry mice, peeing their armor at the thought of mages being around.

 

 

Let's retry this, then. Completely distinct from any moral merit of trying to emulate the ancient elven caste system.

 

The very laws of reality and nature of existence that the ancient elves operated under are gone. Kaput. Vanished. Patron and protective deities have been lost or sealed away. Immortality no longer exists. Magic has gone from being a universal trait to a very, very small minority. The rules under which magic exists have likewise radically changed- what the ancient elves could do as a matter of course, may now be effectively impossible.

 

What they were at a compositional level, how they operated, who they followed and how they did so, the rules of magi-physicals, are radically different.

 

If the Dalish act like Chantry mice, it could very well be because the Dalish, like the Chantry, have adopted to how magic is now. Both groups came into being well into the post-veil world.

 

Acting based on how magic used to be would be would be rather illogical... were anyone alive who remembered those ways among the Dalish. There are none, and this has been known for years- Dalish emulation of Arlathan (and the Dales) have always been more aspirational than logical, and this has been pointed out by critics for years as well.

 

Dalish understanding of magic reflecting the context of the age is perfectly reasonable. Dalish crafting mage-policies around that understanding would also be reasonable- even if their security policies is based more around 'how many potential abominations do we feel we could take on as we are.'

[Dean_the_Young]

What about the Andrastian Elves? 

 

The oppressed elves will doubtless be enabled to pursue their own culture and freedom of religion without Andrastian oppression.

[Dean_the_Young]

Small point on definitions: the political version of the Enlightenment was actually - in most ways - about the strong screwing the weak, because of the general acceptance of the "balance of power" paradigm in international politics and its corollary in domestic politics, enlightened despotism. Governments did not become meaningfully more benign to either their citizenry or to their foreign neighbors until after the Napoleonic Wars. Paul Schroeder traced this development in considerable detail twenty years ago, and in most cases it has been modified only slightly since then: the basic argument is quite sound.

The European Enlightenment was more about trying to modify the existing paradigm in slightly more acceptable ways without trying to solve the fundamental problems that it threw up. So (for example) you'd get Italian writers throwing around ideas about reducing the use of the death penalty and rationalizing criminal justice, but they'd rarely go so far as to suggest a genuinely egalitarian system. Similarly, in international relations, there were a few efforts to reform the balance of power system, and some people (like Emperor Leopold II, Count Vergennes, Immanuel Kant, Philipp Cobenzl, and Anton Wenzel von Kaunitz) saw how destructive it was, but nobody could figure out how to make a better system, or who would pay for it, until 1814.

 

All true- but I think the rise of the ideal, tied with reformist movements at the margins, was important in its own right. I'm less tied to any notion of immediate nation-changing successes, and more on the rise of aspirational ideals that could be used as a new model (however imperfectly implemented- see America).

 

Reformist attitudes based on enlightenment principles of the value/potential of the individuals, even reform within represive status quos, is one of the few things that helps keep me from being a helplessly irredeemable cynic, so forgive me if I hold it a bit too close to be perfectly objective about the history of it.

[helpthisguyplease]

In Thedas, mages must manage fear and wariness. No one, not even Solas, is immune to that.

I bet he is immune since he is not even a mage.

Again even in quarantine situations most guards did not kill prisoners on a whim. For example when the people of Japanese origin where sent to internment camps in USA(why only them no idea) even if there where a couple of abuses by the guards most of them respected their duty and did not harmed others on a whim. Also most people did not harmed germans and italians they think its not worth the trouble.

Most people thank goodness do not overreact to potential danger, there are many who do but most people do not.  Most people in a community do not give a crap that there is a mage among them with all the problems that it brings. As in protests again tyrani most people do not care to even go at a protest. For example when there was the revolutions in former comunist countries most people did not participate in that revolution many did but most did not. So I bet that when the custom of banishing a child mage began it was because of the strong opinion of the a vocal minority of the elves in the clan not the majority. The majority just does not care either way they avoid conflict as most humans in real life do.

[Hair Serious Business]

I only know that all "ancient elves" are right now facepalming when they see what kind of elves are right now on world that are "representing" them.

[Mistic]

The regions are dangerous, but the use of the word 'disappearance' seems intentional, likely emphasizing that the Dalish disappear into the forests, venturing further and further away from human society to try to carve out a life for themselves free from the dangers of Andrastian forces. I'm certain some fail in the endeavor, while others succeed.

 

Given that losing contact with other clans might suppose more mage children abandonment, I'm not sure I like the idea. If they suceed, that's it. Because we are assuming that outside Thedas there aren't other kingdoms and religions that wouldn't try to crush the funny-looking immigrants.

 

Which is basically Skyhold under Dalish rule, where an elven Inquisitor governs a diverse makeup of Andrastian humans and Dalish elves.

 

And? What's the problem? Also, as it's been mentioned before, don't forget the City Elves. They got their own representative in the Council too.

 

Let's retry this, then. Completely distinct from any moral merit of trying to emulate the ancient elven caste system.

 

The very laws of reality and nature of existence that the ancient elves operated under are gone. Kaput. Vanished. Patron and protective deities have been lost or sealed away. Immortality no longer exists. Magic has gone from being a universal trait to a very, very small minority. The rules under which magic exists have likewise radically changed- what the ancient elves could do as a matter of course, may now be effectively impossible.

 

What they were at a compositional level, how they operated, who they followed and how they did so, the rules of magi-physicals, are radically different.

 

If the Dalish act like Chantry mice, it could very well be because the Dalish, like the Chantry, have adopted to how magic is now. Both groups came into being well into the post-veil world.

 

Good take on it. Practical reasons outweight cultural reasons here. And it has been so since time of the Dales; as DA:I showed, mages in the new elven kingdom were priests and scholars rather than god-kings, so even they didn't recreate the magocracy of old.

[Dean_the_Young]

I bet he is immune since he is not even a mage.

 

 

Arguable.
 

 

Again even in quarantine situations most guards did not kill prisoners on a whim. For example when the people of Japanese origin where sent to internment camps in USA(why only them no idea) even if there where a couple of abuses by the guards most of them respected their duty and did not harmed others on a whim. Also most people did not harmed germans and italians they think its not worth the trouble.

 

 

 

In the Circles most guards did not kill prisoners on a whim either.

 

But if you really intend to bring up WW2 Japanese POW camps (or other occupation practices) as a comparison... well, the Circles stand much better on human rights in virtually every respect. Systemic starvation rations, slave labor, death marches, comfort women, and the entire state-sanctioned cultural conception of Bushido viewing those who surrendered as inherently without honor... and that's not even touching on Unit 731, a practice which has absolutely no equivalent amongst the Templars.

 

 

Most people thank goodness do not overreact to potential danger, there are many who do but most people do not.  Most people in a community do not give a crap that there is a mage among them with all the problems that it brings. As in protests again tyrani most people do not care to even go at a protest. For example when there was the revolutions in former comunist countries most people did not participate in that revolution many did but most did not. So I bet that when the custom of banishing a child mage began it was because of the strong opinion of the a vocal minority of the elves in the clan not the majority. The majority just does not care either way they avoid conflict as most humans in real life do.

 

 

 

There are other possibilities as to why only a few mages might be allowed in any one tribe. Power politics could certainly be a factor- even though they are remarkably egaltarian in their survivalist mentality, Dalish tribes are basic mageocracies, with mages being the accepted and expected leaders through grooming.

[Dean_the_Young]

Good take on it. Practical reasons outweight cultural reasons here. And it has been so since time of the Dales; as DA:I showed, mages in the new elven kingdom were priests and scholars rather than god-kings, so even they didn't recreate the magocracy of old.

 

Eh, I don't think we got anything near enough to assume that about the Dales.

 

Considering that the Dales may have been a deliberate experiment/policy of seeking to regain immortality by isolation, and having the mages be both the priests and scholars both designing and justifying the endeavor would be perfectly compatible with a mageocracy. There is nothing preventing the intellectuals (as priests, or scholars, or both) from also being the autocratic rulers of a kingdom.

 

 

Calling Arlathan a mageocracy at this point is a bit of a misnomer, since 'we all had magic' does seem to have been one of the elven myths to be substantiated. Unless/until it was no longer true after the Veil was formed, Arlathan during the era of the god kings pre-veil would have made the distinction meaningless. When everyone has magic, mageocracy is meaningless.

[Colonelkillabee]

I only know that all "ancient elves" are right now facepalming when they see what kind of elves are right now on world that are "representing" them.

 

I think the ancient elves are too busy being dead from their own stupidity to care. And if not, they have no room to judge.

[ctd757]

Hey guys is there a way to put Celene on the throne and still support the City Elves?

Also I think I understand why Dalish send mages away. All it takes is one human to see a Dalish mage and it another Exalted March

[Mistic]

Eh, I don't think we got anything near enough to assume that about the Dales.

 

Considering that the Dales may have been a deliberate experiment/policy of seeking to regain immortality by isolation, and having the mages be both the priests and scholars both designing and justifying the endeavor would be perfectly compatible with a mageocracy. There is nothing preventing the intellectuals (as priests, or scholars, or both) from also being the autocratic rulers of a kingdom.

 

Given that the text in those ruins talked about the position of mages in the Dales as priests in opposition to their position as leaders in Dalish clans, there's a case to be made. However, I agree that we still need more information. Hey, I'm pretty satisfied already: contrary to my expectations, DA:I has solved many mysteries about the old elven societies.

 

Calling Arlathan a mageocracy at this point is a bit of a misnomer, since 'we all had magic' does seem to have been one of the elven myths to be substantiated. Unless/until it was no longer true after the Veil was formed, Arlathan during the era of the god kings pre-veil would have made the distinction meaningless. When everyone has magic, mageocracy is meaningless.

 

Fair point.

 

You know, it's ironic to remember the days pre-Inquisition. Back then, the elves' immortality and the "we all were mages" was doubted by many in and out universe, as part of their fairy tale about the lost Arcadia, while few doubted that Tevinter destroyed Arlathan. Now we know that immortality was real, that their civilization was that powerful in magic, but the ones to destroy it were the elves themselves, not Tevinter.

[Kinsz]

There is a Connor like example in DA I as well , for those who havent seen the Chateaux D'onterre in the Emerald Grave do not read....................................................

 

Basically it is a haunted mansion now because the lord who ruled that place had a daughter who had magic so he paid some crooked templar to keep it on the hush, like Connor the girl had a magical tutor ( not a blood mage unlike Jowan ) and as you might expect things went to ****, people got killed demons took over until the Inquisitor arrives and clears the place out ( creepiest place in DA I by far ).

 

I bring this up just to solidify the point that child or not magic is dangerous and mages need to be watched for their own good as well as people around them, they are the equivalent of a ticking bomb , it might go off any minute best to watch it or keep your distance.

[Addai]

This is a change of discussion now from Solas's description of the fade, you realize, but very well.
 
The fact that children are hardly responsible is true. It's also very, very relevant, since a mage-child's ability to be mature and responsible isn't even remotely linked to their ability to even inadvertently cause huge swarths of destruction accidentally. Mere paranoia and fear of the fade isn't even required- cue the Redcliffe example, in which a major settlement was nearly (or even was) annihalated by a boy who, rather than mad from fear of magic and the fade, simply listened to the nice lady's voice for help. Connor is the epitome of what a well-intentioned, and ignorant, mage-child can be.

The logic of this means you should slit the throat of any child who shows signs of magic the minute that they do. How else are you going to know if they can handle it? And as I said upthread, Connor is the premier example of what happens when you institute a policy based on paranoia such as the one we're discussing.
 

Why wait, though? Why not offer constructive proposals, rather than criticism, of all that he sees? This is just banking on faith that has never even approached being vindicated.

He doesn't have his god mojo back yet. As of end game, he can't get it back, either, so he has to borrow Flemythal's. Pretty straightforward plot reasons. I'm not sure why this is relevant to the thread, anyway.
 

Lots of people get locked up, for various reasons, and mages have different rights than criminals. A much better analogy and comparison for the Circles is the various quarantine colonies that have existed across history. People who, through no moral fault of their own, none the less hold active or potential ability to do significant harm without any deliberate intent.

Except you don't quarantine whole populations because they might get sick someday.
 

What we saw in Origins was hardly 'executed on the spot' by virtue of hear-say. We did have an actual blood-mage escape attempt, if you recall.

Well, it's true that Origins wasn't as bad as what we hear in Inquisition. In this game, templars attempted to rape a mage before killing her. Not like anyone is going to call them to account for either.
 

If the Dalish act like Chantry mice, it could very well be because the Dalish, like the Chantry, have adopted to how magic is now. Both groups came into being well into the post-veil world.

Okay. Then that just makes them fools and cowards. That's what I've concluded that most clans have become. Since we have other indications that they've degenerated into pathetic shadows of their own aspirations, I agree it's fitting in a way. It's just pretty sad. If you hate the Dalish, I guess it works for you.

Edit- and, getting back to the OP, apparently the elves can't handle their own magic and need humans to do it for them, in the Dalish clans as in the alienage. So the answer to the OP's question is- neither one is worse, they're both about as sorry as it gets in Thedas.