376 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Given that the text in those ruins talked about the position of mages in the Dales as priests in opposition to their position as leaders in Dalish clans, there's a case to be made. However, I agree that we still need more information. Hey, I'm pretty satisfied already: contrary to my expectations, DA:I has solved many mysteries about the old elven societies.

 

Indeed it has. Seeing some people run around trying to rationalize them (or outright refute them) has been quite amusing.

 

 

As for the Dales vs. Dalish clans, the difference in social structure alone makes any 'contradiction' tenuous. Dalish clans have no explicit priest class, but the Keepers are about as close as it gets. Wherehas the Dales, not being clans, categorically could not have had clan leaders... but could well have been a theocracy (and, if mages were the priests, thus a mageocracy).

 

 

 

 

Fair point.

 

You know, it's ironic to remember the days pre-Inquisition. Back then, the elves' immortality and the "we all were mages" was doubted by many in and out universe, as part of their fairy tale about the lost Arcadia, while few doubted that Tevinter destroyed Arlathan. Now we know that immortality was real, that their civilization was that powerful in magic, but the ones to destroy it were the elves themselves, not Tevinter.

 

 

Indeed. Of course, the Dalish remembrance of immortality was more than a bit skewed- immortality seems to have been more ritualistic rather than innate (either through body-hopping or uthera cycles, neither of which were for everyone), and the loss of immortality increasingly seems to be tied to something other than the arrival of humans. (My guess is the sundering that accompanied the creation of the Veil and loss of the gods.)

[Kurogane335]

When it comes to the Dalish, I find that Solas vision is incredibly stupid. Sadly, the Dalish shares the worst part of it :disdain for mankind and a wish to live isolated.

 

Here is one example :the Vallaslin were slaves tatoos in Elvenhan, but they have ceased to be so for the Dalish, yet Solas (the "True Elf" we could say) find it offensive to see elves wearing the tatoos with pride, proving that he is utterly unable to understand that cultures evolve with times and events.

 

Now, we can see the same blindness to the changes of the world coming from the Dalish : they still cling to what they believe Arlathann was (an elven Utopia, secluded from humans) and learnt nothing of its fall and the Fall of the Dales. They still want to create their own country, for themselves only, were only elves can live. But by doing so, they would be destroyed again. The future of the Elves isn't the third creation of Arlathann, but the creation of a country where elves are at least equals to humans (or probably of higher standing) but where the latter are also allowed to live (but maybe they have to leave behind them some or most teachings of the Chantry).

 

When it comes to the mages in a clan, the Dalish show the same tendency of being isolationists before anything else, even the betterment of their kind. Obviously, mages are highly dangerous beings (such as DA2 showed, were refusing to sell a fork to a mage had a 75% chance of him ended as an Abomination) but if the Dalish weren't as isolated as they are from their own brethren, they could actually manage the presence of more mages in their clans -by the virtue of taking more City Elves with them, thus creating new clans once some have reached a critical mass, which would obviously be for the betterment of all Elvenkind, since the Dalish would prosper more and the City Elves would get ride of the most hot-headed or radical parts of their society (if they actually do not want to rebel, that is).

[Kinsz]

When it comes to the Dalish, I find that Solas vision is incredibly stupid. Sadly, the Dalish shares the worst part of it :disdain for mankind and a wish to live isolated.

 

Here is one example :the Vallaslin were slaves tatoos in Elvenhan, but they have ceased to be so for the Dalish, yet Solas (the "True Elf" we could say) find it offensive to see elves wearing the tatoos with pride, proving that he is utterly unable to understand that cultures evolve with times and events.

 

While i understand your point you need to remember that Solas has just woken up from his slumber, this evolution you are talking about he has not witnessed it , imagine you going to sleep and wake up 1000 years from now it will take you time to understand whatever the hell the humans of that time are up to.

[Kurogane335]

While i understand your point you need to remember that Solas has just woken up from his slumber, this evolution you are talking about he has not witnessed it , imagine you going to sleep and wake up 1000 years from now it will take you time to understand whatever the hell the humans of that time are up to.

 Yes, I know this, but my problem with him is that he himself doesn't seem to care about it : "Back in my time, vallaslin were for slaves, so having vallaslin and being proud of it show that you're stupid" is basically the end of his reasoning. He often assumes that people will think like him and his disdainful of those who don't, even when they simply lack the knowledge he has.

[Dean_the_Young]

The logic of this means you should slit the throat of any child who shows signs of magic the minute that they do. How else are you going to know if they can handle it? And as I said upthread, Connor is the premier example of what happens when you institute a policy based on paranoia such as the one we're discussing.

 

In order-

 

It doesn't, since cost-risk assessments don't require that conclusion.

By systemically training, assessing, and weeding out all magi according to the culturally accepted standards of the society.

Connor is a context that could occur regardless of any mage system, since the basis for Connor's possession and abilities are beyond the control of any mage-education system (good intentioned but inexperienced, love for family facing catastrophe, demonic offer).

 

He doesn't have his god mojo back yet. As of end game, he can't get it back, either, so he has to borrow Flemythal's. Pretty straightforward plot reasons. I'm not sure why this is relevant to the thread, anyway.

 

 

'God mojo' is a matter of power, not a substitute or requirement for proposing ideas and alternate systems. Solas doesn't need to be god-king to lay out ideas of what a 'better' system is... and if his idea of a 'better' system requires a god-king to enforce it, then there's a high chance it's not particularly 'better' by any standards the people of Southern Thedas (or anywhere else) are inclined to believe in.
 

Except you don't quarantine whole populations because they might get sick someday.

 

 

Sure you do- that's pandemic management 101, and a major step in the ongoing Ebola quarantines in West Africa right now. High-risk individuals are identified and isolated, even before symptoms are identified, until clarification can be obtained.

 

Indefinite quarantines are for people with active symptoms that can be identified, and whose consequences for outbreak are considered severe enough. Which mage have, and are considered to be. (The symptoms are magic, and the disease is abominations.)

 

Normally with quarantines most carrier groups either (A) burn themselves out, ( are left free to inflict the remaining population, or © are cordoned indefinitely (even for the rest of their lives) for as long as organization effort is expended or until A or B occur.

 

Well, it's true that Origins wasn't as bad as what we hear in Inquisition. In this game, templars attempted to rape a mage before killing her. Not like anyone is going to call them to account for either.

 

 

 

A crime of war committed by individuals rather than a matter of policy, with plenty of crimes on both sides, not being used to characterize the systems in place in peace?

 

Well, duh. Because that would be really stupid. Sort of like how claiming Templars just killing/raping/tranquilizing mages in the Circle on a whim is stupid. And how claiming all mages are power-mad mage supremacists would be stupid.

 

Strangely, things that are obviously stupid on the face of any objectivity are rarely brought up by serious people. They tend to be left to the sillier, and usually rarer, people who buy into such irrational sensationalism.

 

Okay. Then that just makes them fools and cowards. That's what I've concluded that most clans have become. Since we have other indications that they've degenerated into pathetic shadows of their own aspirations, I agree it's fitting in a way. It's just pretty sad. If you hate the Dalish, I guess it works for you.

 

 

You have a pretty sad definition for 'fools' and 'cowards' to condemn people for operating off of the realities they face, rather than the meta-knowledge of other people not available to them.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

The oppressed elves will doubtless be enabled to pursue their own culture and freedom of religion without Andrastian oppression.

Alot of elves are true believers in the maker, they wouldn't just stop cos they're in a place under Dalish control, which would just be trouble tbh since the Dalish wouldn't tolerate any elves who refuse to convert to their beliefs

[Dean_the_Young]

While i understand your point you need to remember that Solas has just woken up from his slumber, this evolution you are talking about he has not witnessed it , imagine you going to sleep and wake up 1000 years from now it will take you time to understand whatever the hell the humans of that time are up to.

 

Which really doesn't change or challenge what Solas is at heart- a cultural chauvinist.

 

A thoughtful, generally respectful, modest, and intelligent one, but a chauvinist none the less. He caries his world-view on how things should be, and expects or tries to push elves into aligning it as a matter of course, and dislikes when they stray from his ideal vision of what an elf 'should' be.

 

There's nothing particularly or even exceptionally abhorrent about any of that, mind you- plenty of people want to change the world and others in it to reflect their own priorities, and many of those people could be described as both good people and having the best intentions. But Solas comes from a time when magical elves were dominant and the norm, and his views still reflect that as normal and proper. Times and views have changed- both for elves, and for magic.

[Dean_the_Young]

Alot of elves are true believers in the maker, they wouldn't just stop cos they're in a place under Dalish control, which would just be trouble tbh since the Dalish wouldn't tolerate any elves who refuse to convert to their beliefs

 

Sorry, that was probably too subtle a forum joke for the internet.

 

Lobsel has a long history of equating religious freedom for elves with being free to practice Dalish religion without Andrastian religious intolerance. He has, for many years, been utterly silent on the question of the religious freedom of elves to be Andrastian, whether in the Dales or elsewhere. When he doesn't dodge the question entirely, he generally repeats the samesort of platitude I just gave about religious freedom for elves to practice Dalish religion safe from Andrastian oppression.

 

When/if he brings up a Taliban comparison I made in the past, it basically derived from noting that that partial definition of religious freedom ('the freedom to practice X religion') is actually used by notorious religious identity groups who are anathema to actual religious freedoms because the freedom to practie X does not mean the freedom to practice Y, or not practice at all.

 

(The Taliban allusion came from an unflattering listing of comparing xenophobic religious tribes with a closely-hold history of past grievances... and the Dalish. Lobsel never actually addressed the substance of the comparison, but instead likes to bring up from time to time as something utterly impossible.)

[Addai]

In order-
 
It doesn't, since cost-risk assessments don't require that conclusion.

If having four mages instead of three poses an existential risk to your clan, then you'd better think about having none. If you're a logical individual.

I get what the writers are doing. Magic is a necessary evil, blah blah. I don't have to respect the hypocrisies involved in the actual practice of carrying out those priorities.
 

'God mojo' is a matter of power, not a substitute or requirement for proposing ideas and alternate systems. Solas doesn't need to be god-king to lay out ideas of what a 'better' system is... and if his idea of a 'better' system requires a god-king to enforce it, then there's a high chance it's not particularly 'better' by any standards the people of Southern Thedas (or anywhere else) are inclined to believe in.

I don't know why we're talking about this, so I don't really have anything to say.

Sure you do- that's pandemic management 101, and a major step in the ongoing Ebola quarantines in West Africa right now. High-risk individuals are identified and isolated, even before symptoms are identified, until clarification can be obtained.

Or because you wish to exploit the riches and power that the "disease" brings you. Again, I understand the rationale, but the pandemic is one largely brought about by attempts to cure it. It's like putting those high risk people in ebola hot zones deliberately and then telling yourself they died off because there was just no way to do it any differently.
 

You have a pretty sad definition for 'fools' and 'cowards' to condemn people for operating off of the realities they face, rather than the meta-knowledge of other people not available to them.

The reality they face is that their population is dying off, especially the mages, and they're apparently killing off the very people they consider valuable enough that they have to be traded around. If that sort of "logic" works for you, okay then.

[Mistic]

Which really doesn't change or challenge what Solas is at heart- a cultural chauvinist.

 

A thoughtful, generally respectful, modest, and intelligent one, but a chauvinist none the less. He caries his world-view on how things should be, and expects or tries to push elves into aligning it as a matter of course, and dislikes when they stray from his ideal vision of what an elf 'should' be.

 

There's nothing particularly or even exceptionally abhorrent about any of that, mind you- plenty of people want to change the world and others in it to reflect their own priorities, and many of those people could be described as both good people and having the best intentions. But Solas comes from a time when magical elves were dominant and the norm, and his views still reflect that as normal and proper. Times and views have changed- both for elves, and for magic.

 

When you stop to think about it, the whole DA:I is about that theme.

 

-Corypheus' goal isn't bad per se. I mean, he thinks there's no God, and sees his bleoved homeland reduced to a shadow of its former glory. He wants to help the Imperium. Solas wants to help the elves to go back to their former glory too.

-Many people in the Inquisition, from rigorous Cassandra to lovely Josephine, try to push the Inquisitor as the Herald of Andraste, no matter what he or she thinks about it.

-Mother Giselle, even more respectful and modest than Solas, is hellbent on pushing that Herald of Andraste agenda too. After Adamant, if the Inquisitor has remained firm in their non-believer ideals, you can feel her disappointment.

-Sera will disapprove if a Dalish Inquisitor tries to push "elfiness" on her. Ironically, in a rather hypocritical yet in-character way, she also disapproves if the Inquisitor doesn't bow to her Andrastian vision about what the Herald of Andraste should be (I'm not talking about her opinions on class, but that should count for this too).

-The dilemma with Cole. In the end, the Inquisitor has to accept either Varric's or Solas' ideals on Cole.

-Dorian and his parents. Nuff said.

 

The reality they face is that their population is dying off, especially the mages, and they're apparently killing off the very people they consider valuable enough that they have to be traded around. If that sort of "logic" works for you, okay then.

 

"Logical" doesn't mean good. Why do people think that logic = goodness? Also, it being logical in a given context doesn't mean that it's logical in another.

 

An important theme about the Dalish in Inquisition is that their nomadic nature is making them more and more different, from their stories about gods to their level of isolationism. What the isolationist and heavily xenophobic clan in The Masked Empire might consider acceptable could appal the Lavellan. And they're both Dalish, so let's not start with the No True Scotsman fallacies.

[helpthisguyplease]

We should not give examples of how dangerous the mages are based on the events in Kirkwall. Because first they have way to many mages for gods sakes I saw the only circle in Ferelden having way fewer mages then Kirkwall one had, and that is a country not a city state. Second how come Kirkwall had so many blood mages when when they have the biggest number of templars in all of the Free Marches cities and its not even the biggest city there. Kirkwall is a exception they have to many mages and templars in a not so big city.

Also maybe its my skewed view but people there really got used to hearing about blood mages and abominations that they do not care anymore since they even defend mages knowing that. I guess if you get enough of a bad thing you get used to it.

Connor and that child from the emerald forest where examples of what child mages can do. But on the other hand Bethany a mage Hawke, Merill, that girl elf that was abused by bandits for years(how did she managed) and becomed the first of Zathian and every keeper that is not the one mentioned did not went that road. Its seems as I said most do not fall prey to demons.

[Dean_the_Young]

When you stop to think about it, the whole DA:I is about that theme.

 

-Corypheus' goal isn't bad per se. I mean, he thinks there's no God, and sees his bleoved homeland reduced to a shadow of its former glory. He wants to help the Imperium. Solas wants to help the elves to go back to their former glory too.

-Many people in the Inquisition, from rigorous Cassandra to lovely Josephine, try to push the Inquisitor as the Herald of Andraste, no matter what he or she thinks about it.

-Mother Giselle, even more respectful and modest than Solas, is hellbent on pushing that Herald of Andraste agenda too. After Adamant, if the Inquisitor has remained firm in their non-believer ideals, you can feel her disappointment.

-Sera will disapprove if a Dalish Inquisitor tries to push "elfiness" on her. Ironically, in a rather hypocritical yet in-character way, she also disapproves if the Inquisitor doesn't bow to her Andrastian vision about what the Herald of Andraste should be (I'm not talking about her opinions on class, but that should count for this too).

-The dilemma with Cole. In the end, the Inquisitor has to accept either Varric's or Solas' ideals on Cole.

-Dorian and his parents. Nuff said.

 

Yup. And, like I said, it's not necessarily a bad thing... within moderation. A lot of those examples aren't particularly moderate, and I'd have no problem calling them evil, whereas others are 'reasonable disagreement.' Generally, cultural chauvenism only becomes a sin if it starts being pushed forcibly on the unwilling.

 

Solas's is the generally harmless if annoying sort. It would only become a real issue if he (possibly through Flemeth's influence) becomes a revaunchist and tries to forcibly revert the world. Bring down the veil, try to lead the elves to the proper path, etc.

 

"Logical" doesn't mean good. Why do people think that logic = goodness? Also, it being logical in a given context doesn't mean that it's logical in another.

 

An important theme about the Dalish in Inquisition is that their nomadic nature is making them more and more different, from their stories about gods to their level of isolationism. What the isolationist and heavily xenophobic clan in The Masked Empire might consider acceptable could appal the Lavellan. And they're both Dalish, so let's not start with the No True Scotsman fallacies.

 

At this point, I suspect that the only requirements to being Dalish are face paint, myths, and calling yourself such.

 

I'm even doubtful on the need to be elven. I'd love to see some social experiment in which a radical/pariah Keeper/clan tries to raise a human as a Dalish. (I've even got a character sketch of that... somewhere.)

[Dean_the_Young]

We should not give examples of how dangerous the mages are based on the events in Kirkwall. Because first they have way to many mages for gods sakes I saw the only circle in Ferelden having way fewer mages then Kirkwall one had, and that is a country not a city state. Second how come Kirkwall had so many blood mages when when they have the biggest number of templars in all of the Free Marches cities and its not even the biggest city there. Kirkwall is a exception they have to many mages and templars in a not so big city.

Also maybe its my skewed view but people there really got used to hearing about blood mages and abominations that they do not care anymore since they even defend mages knowing that. I guess if you get enough of a bad thing you get used to it.

Connor and that child from the emerald forest where examples of what child mages can do. But on the other hand Bethany a mage Hawke, Merill, that girl elf that was abused by bandits for years(how did she managed) and becomed the first of Zathian and every keeper that is not the one mentioned did not went that road. Its seems as I said most do not fall prey to demons.

 

When considering security policy (and, because of their own potential, magi are a part of security policy), 'most' is irrelevant. 'Enough' is the only category that matters... as vague and subjective as that is.

 

Acceptance of risks and costs is a social and cultural tolerance- different people tolerate different amounts under different circumstances. Tolerance can be brought about by legitimacy and willing acceptance (the reputation boost the mages get from siding with the Inquisition), or enforced with oppression (Tevinter) or even internalized to the point it is not longer controversial (the Rivaini 'forces of nature').

 

White Thedas has an exceptionally low tolerance, for historic reasons. The Dalish tolerance is more about risk tolerance for the clan as a whole- the entire clan is committed to hunting down an abomination, and they likely want to feel reasonably assured they could take them down if it were to come to that. There might also be the power politics of not having rival potential Keepers within the Clan, but it could also be as basic as the typical clan feels it could take one, maybe even two abominations- but not three or four.

[Lee80]

I feel like the only way either of the varieties will ever stand a chance is they work together.  The remaining ancient elves could possibly unite them, but it seems unlikely sadly.  Of course it also would rely too heavily on personal choice, and a lot of elves have decent enough lives where they are, and probably don't want to rebuild a society long since lost-or risk another exalted march for that matter.  Sadly the chantry seems to be rebuilt at the end of the game no matter your choices.  

[helpthisguyplease]

The problem with that thinking is that all of them can be abominations at the same time which I doubt it will happen. So is it not better to have a couple of mages when you are fighting abomination there like having a cannon at you side. But again their way can bring other problems imagine that you send banish child mages and they become abominations bent on revenge you just created a enemy a enemy that can kill scores of templars until their killed and that are coming for your clan. Also if you kill you mage children I bet that the parents of said children will not forget that also since elves are going to have more mages on average then humans you pretty much can not do that since you will turn the clan against you.

 The future of elvenkind is with the city elves they are in bigger numbers, they backbone and they certainly try to get political power in the system. They are the future and the games prove that they are gonna improve the life of the elven race. No amount of explenations will make me think that the dalish are better then the city elves because when I compare them to the city elves they are just worse.

[Chari]

The idea that the Dalish send their mages away because they don't have templars is just... nonsense. It seems we have to accept it since it's repeated by several NPCs but it makes no sense and just seems like pandering to the pro-Circle crowd. If true, then yes, that lowers my opinion of the Dalish in general.

Tis just another retcon probably intended to make folk realize that mages have it hard everywhere... and make the dalish look like jerks

Even though in previous games we were told an opposite about their approach to magic - they began to have less and less mages hence they constantly exchanged kids with magic abilities so no clan would be left without a keeper

But Bioware hates the dalish so... who cares about the continuity anyway?

[Br3admax]

It has nothing to do with hating the Dalish, and a lot more to do with resources. It's not realistic in anyway to think the Dalish live outside the laws that we all have to live with concerning that just because FREEDOM™. 

 

There are tribes that allow children to die to this day, simply because they lack the resources to take care of them. Sorry the Dalish live in the reality of Thedas, despite their best attempts to reject that, but they do. 

[Addai]

So squandering one of your most valuable resources makes sense because...

[EmissaryofLies]

Tis just another retcon probably intended to make folk realize that mages have it hard everywhere... and make the dalish look like jerks

Even though in previous games we were told an opposite about their approach to magic - they began to have less and less mages hence they constantly exchanged kids with magic abilities so no clan would be left without a keeper

But Bioware hates the dalish so... who cares about the continuity anyway?

 

Yes and what better way to push that agenda forward? Well done, big Bio.

[Br3admax]

So squandering one of your most valuable resources makes sense because...

How are they their most valuable resource just because they have magic again? You aren't suddenly smarter because you're a mage. You're not even necessarily more powerful, which explains the competitions. More power, less influence demons have over you. What they are is a portal for demons into this world, and it's hard to watch over all of them. Especially when they must always be on the move to not use up the resources they currently live off of. So again, how is not keeping around their biggest liability nonsensical? 

[TheJediSaint]

Yes and what better way to push that agenda forward? Well done, big Bio.

Or, you know, the Dalish were always jerks and people are just now starting to realize this.

[Master Warder Z_]

Or, you know, the Dalish were always jerks and people are just now starting to realize this.

Pretty much.

[EmissaryofLies]

Or, you know, the Dalish were always jerks and people are just now starting to realize this.

 

With much help from Bioware, sure.